The Earl of Limericksaid —Presuming, my Lords, upon the very kind indulgence which I received at the hands of your Lordships yesterday, when I brought before your Lordships what I conceived to be a breach of the privileges of your Lordships' House, I am induced to entreat your Lordships to indulge me now for one or two minutes, and I promise not to detain your Lordships longer. Having already stated to your Lordships, fully and unreservedly, my opinion upon the subject in question, it would be at once bad taste and bad sense, if I were to travel into the matter again; and I rise now, to assure your Lordships that I have no personal feeling whatever with regard to the transaction. True it is, my Lords, that I considered that it was through me that the dignity of your Lordships' House was attacked,—but it was in consequence of the attack upon that dignity, and not in consequence of what was said of me personally, that I brought the matter under the notice of your Lordships. These were the grounds upon which I acted, and if I had it to do again, I would do precisely as I have done. My Lords, I have endeavoured to save your Lordships some time and trouble by looking into the precedents which have been followed upon similar occasions, or to which similar occasions have given rise; and I find that, in early days, very severe penalties hare been inflicted upon persons who have been guilty of such an offence as that which I conceive has been committed in the present instance. However, my Lords, I am no advocate for violent measures, or for severe penalties in any case.
The Lord Chancellorhere interrupted, the noble Earl, and said—I am sure, my Lords, that the noble Earl means nothing but what is quite right in the course which he is now pursuing; but allow me to suggest to your Lordships, that that course is 1585 not consistent with the order of your Lordships' proceedings. Your Lordships yesterday agreed to an order,—namely, "That the printer of The Times newspaper do attend this House to-morrow at four o'clock." Now that order is peremptory; and I take it, that in the first instance your Lordships must be informed whether that order has been complied with, and whether the person is in attendance. With this, I apprehend, your Lordships must commence your proceedings in this matter, unless the noble Earl intends to move, that that order be discharged, and that I do not understand to be the noble Earl's intention.
The Earl of Limerick.—Certainly, my Lords, I have no such intention, any more than I have the intention of pursuing any course which is inconsistent with the order of your Lordships' proceedings. I will therefore very shortly bring my observations upon the subject to a conclusion. My Lords, I have no personal feeling in the matter. I took it up solely for the sake of the House, and with the House I now leave it.
§ Mr. Pulman, the Yeoman Usher, here appeared at the Bar, and said—" My Lords, the printer of The Times newspaper is in attendance."
§ The Printer of The Times was accordingly placed at the Bar.
§ Answer.—John Joseph Lawson.
The Lord Chancellor.—Look at the paper which will be handed to you, at the paragraph which will be pointed out to you. [Here Mr. Courtenay, the Clerk of the Parliament, showed Mr. Lawson The Times newspaper which contained the paragraph complained of.] Are you the printer of the paper in which that paragraph is inserted?
Mr. Lawsonhaving withdrawn from the Bar, one of the Clerks of the Table read the following paragraph:—
§ "Yet mean, cruel, and atrocious as every civilized mind must consider the doctrine, that Ireland has no need of Poor- 1586 laws, or some equivalent for them—hateful and abominable as is such a screen for inhumanity—there are men, or things with human pretensions, nay with lofty privileges, who do not blush to treat the mere proposal of establishing a fund for the relief of the diseased or helpless Irish with brutal ridicule and almost impious scorn. Will any man credit, that an Irish absentee Lord could say what he is reported to have uttered in the House of Peers last night, when Lord Rosebery presented a Petition, praying that a compulsory tax on land might be introduced into Ireland, towards alleviating her poor? We shall not name him,—because the House of Lords is armed with a thing called a 'Bar,' and other disagreeable appendages. But there are members of that House who surprise nobody by declaring their indifference to ' popular odium,'—especially when they are at such a distance from Ireland as to ensure the safety of their persons."
§ After the reading of the above paragraph there was a short pause, and then
§ Lord Wynfordrose and said, "My Lords, I, for one, beg leave to express my obligation to the noble Earl near me, for having brought this matter under the consideration of your Lordships, and "—
Here a call was made to clear the Bar, which was accordingly done. All the strangers below the Bar, not excepting the Reporters, were put out of the House. The Members of the House of Commons, who were standing at the foot of the Throne, were allowed to remain. The following proceedings, it is understood, then took place.
Their Lordships determined that the paragraph was a false and scandalous libel. Mr. Lawson was then again called in.
The Lord Chancellorinformed him, on his being placed at the Bar, that the House had determined that the paragraph, which had appeared in the paper of which he was the printer, was a false and scandalous libel, and that their Lordships were then ready to hear any thing which he might have to urge in his defence.
Mr. Lawsonexpressed his regret, that there should have appeared in The Times newspaper, of which he was the printer, any paragraph calculated to give offence either to their Lordships in general, or to any noble Earl in particular. Their Lordships must be aware, that owing to the rapidity with which a journal like The Times must be printed, and the multipli- 1587 city of articles which necessarily found their way into it, it was almost impossible for him, using every diligence in his power, to peruse every separate paragraph which appeared in the paper. The paragraph of which their Lordships complained, had found its way inadvertently into the paper, and he had only to repeat his deep regret that it had done so.
Mr. Lawsonwas ordered to withdraw, but shortly afterwards was recalled to the Bar, when several questions were put to him by several of their Lordships, through the Lord Chancellor. He was asked, whether he had the supreme control of the paper of which he was the printer?—He replied that he had not. He was then asked, if he knew who had?—He replied, that he considered himself to be holding a confidential situation in The Times office, and that he therefore could not answer that question without a breach of trust to his employers, and a loss of character to himself.
The Lord Chancellorinformed Mr. Lawson that he was not bound to answer any questions unless he pleased. It would be enough for him to state to their Lordships that he declined answering any question to which he had an objection. At the same time, he must inform him, that their Lordships would form their own opinions as to his reasons for not answering such questions as might be put to him. Was he to understand that Mr. Lawson declined to answer the last question?
§ A noble Lord then asked, whether a gentleman, whose name he mentioned, was not the editor of The Times newspaper.
Mr. Lawsonreplied, that this was only another mode of putting to him the last question; and therefore, with all respect to their Lordships, he must decline giving any answer to it.
Mr. Lawsonwas then asked, whether he was the person whose name was entered as the printer at the Stamp-office.— He replied, yes. Certain questions were then put to him respecting the proprietors of the paper, whose names were entered at the Stamp-office; but his reply was, that he did not know who they were. He was then ordered to withdraw.
§ Lord Wynfordmoved, "That John Joseph Lawson, having admitted himself to be the printer of a false and scandalous libel, which had appeared in The Times newspaper of the 16th instant, be fined 1588 100l. and committed to Newgate till the fine be paid."
§ The Motion was resisted by the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of Wellington, the Marquis of Lansdown, and Earl Grey. The House was about to divide on the Motion, when, on the amendment of a noble Lord, it was carried, that Mr. Law-son should be committed to the custody of the Usher of the Black Rod, and that he do attend their Lordships to-morrow morning at ten of the clock. Ordered accordingly.