The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that the Magistracy of the country had had some opportunity of ascertaining the effects of the Beer Bill which had been passed in the last Session, and he thought it proper that the attention of the House should be called to the subject. He should at present content himself with moving for certain Returns which would enable their Lordships to form an accurate judgment of what the effect of the Bill had been throughout the country, and particularly in the agricultural districts. He wished the House to be put in possession of information on the subject, for it was his opinion, that the Bill had, in its operation, been of a pernicious tendency, and in saying this he par- 1310 ticularly alluded to the agricultural districts. He wished to ascertain the number of licenses that had been taken out under the new Act, and he should move, that there be laid before this House a Return of the number of Licenses for the sale of Beer that had been taken out under the Act of 10th George 4th, c. 64, to the latest period to which the account can be made out, distinguishing the several counties in which such Licenses had been granted.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that it was not his intention to trespass upon the time of their Lordships, but he wished to take the present opportunity of merely saying a few words, lest it should otherwise go forth to the public, and particularly to those who had an interest in the Bill, that his Majesty's Ministers felt themselves averse from the measure that had been passed in the last Session of Parliament. The fact was not so; and his Majesty's Government, in applying for information on this subject, had no other object in view than to make themselves acquainted with the truth, and to ascertain if the charges made out against the Bill, were well grounded or not. When he proposed, on two occasions, in the other House, a Bill of this nature, it was a special object with him that beer should not be allowed to be drunk on the premises where it was sold; but his Majesty's late Government, having made particular inquiries on the subject, and having availed themselves of the evidence taken before the Committee, decided against his clause; and he, perhaps, though his mind was unchanged on the subject, was inclined to admit that they were justified in doing so. He would acknowledge that he was aware that great evils had arisen from the Bill, in one or two districts, and he particularly alluded to the counties of Hants, Wilts, and Somerset. The same effects, however, had not been produced in the northern counties, where he had the best opportunity of being acquainted with its effects. Neither the Clergy, the Dissenters, nor the landlords in the north, had made any complaints of the operation of the Bill, or of its effects upon the habits of the poorer classes. It was proper to examine into the subject carefully, and to scrutinize the nature of the proposed changes, for the mischiefs which might have arisen from the measure might be only temporary, and consequent upon a sudden change of system; for though all changes did occa- 1311 sionally produce evils, they were in some cases of a temporary nature, and were compensated by the ultimate working of the new system. Until the House were in possession of full information upon the subject, and until every precaution had been taken, he could not see the propriety of making changes in a law, under which so many vested interests had already been formed.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that inquiry into the subject was all he at present wanted, and he did not know that a better way of obtaining information could be devised, than that of granting a Committee.
The Earl of Carnarvonconceived, that the Bill, in its effects, had turned out to be a pernicious measure, and as vested interests were daily growing up under its protection, he thought that investigation ought not to be delayed.
§ Lord Skelmersdalethought, that the House ought to be put into possession of the answers which the Magistrates of the country had written to the circular letter which the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had sent throughout the country.
The Lord Chancellorexplained, that the evidence already produced upon the subject was sufficient to satisfy the minds of most persons. He was far from insinuating any thing against those Magistrates, that had reported against the Beer Bill, but at the same time he could not shut his eyes to the infirmities of nature, nor could he forget what was likely to be produced by the fact, that the Bill took from the Magistrates the only patronage possessed by a Justice of the Peace—the power of granting licenses. As long as nature was nature, as long as man was man, there was a frailty within him, which would bias his judgment, and one person would see an object in a very different point of view from another, according as their interests were differently affected by it. He was far from impugning the Magistrates, but nevertheless, from the causes he had stated, their reports must be considered in some instances, and to a certain degree, as drawn up under a bias of the judgment.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that he felt some surprise that the noble Lord upon the Woolsack should impugn the whole Magistracy of the country, and declare that every Magistrate was capable of mak- 1312 ing an official report under the influence of a bias produced by his personal interests. He believed, on the contrary, that the Magistrates were incapable, from any such motives, of giving incorrect information to the Executive Government. It was, in point of fact, quite ridiculous, that the noble Lord at the head of the Home Department should address the circular he had addressed to the Magistrates of the country, if his Majesty's Ministers had entertained of them such opinions as had been that night uttered by the noble Lord on the Woolsack. He had no desire to press his Motion; but he certainly did wish to know what was the number of houses that had been licensed under the present Bill.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that it was indifferent to him whether the Returns were pressed for or not, and in that particular the noble Earl might take the course which he thought best; but it was not a matter of indifference to him to be held up to the public as having made an attack upon the Magistracy of the country which he never had made, and which it had never been his intention to make. He appealed to their Lordships whether what he had said, could bear the shadow of a shade—the show of a semblance—of an attack upon the Magistrates? He had always admitted, that the Justices of the Peace were a useful body of men—useful professionally, judicially, and in every respect, and he was far from impugning them, or impeaching their conduct. All that he had done was, to suppose them not exempt from the general laws of our common nature, and to state that Ministers ought to bear this in mind when they were called upon to judge, not of the evidence, but of the opinions of the Magistrates. He would defy any man, or body of men, to be exempt from what was the common lot of all men, and all men would have their opinions biassed by a system under which they enjoy power, and be inclined against a change by which that power was to be taken from them. If he had not taken this opportunity of meeting the noble Earl's accusation in the way he had done, the charge of his having attacked the Magistrates of the country would have been repeated here and in other places; and it would have gone forth that his Majesty's Ministers were adverse to the whole body of the Magistracy. The observations which he had made were not 1313 in favour of any measure which had been introduced by himself or his friends, for the Bill in question had been brought forward by their predecessors in office.
The Marquis of Salisburymaintained that the Bill had not worked well as far as the morals of the lower orders were concerned; but yet it had not been found to have all the bad effects which had been attributed to it.
Lord Melbournecould state, on the part of the Ministers, that they had not made up their minds with respect to the Bill. He was desirous of having the best information upon the subject, and he thought that longer time ought to be taken to ascertain how the Bill actually worked. Measures of this sort, undertaken by Ministers, were always attended by the inconvenience of disturbing the public mind; but complaints had become so extremely numerous, that he should have thought he neglected his duty if he had not taken steps to obtain full and clear information upon the subject. He entertained great respect for the Magistrates, and he considered that their replies had afforded him very full information upon the effects and operations of the Bill; but being at the same time well aware that the imputations which had been now urged against them would be cast upon the Magistrates, he had also directed a circular to other bodies of men. He had felt, that the subject was of great and permanent importance to the morals and well-being of the country, and that the closest attention should be given to it. He hoped that the Bill would ultimately be found beneficial.
§ Motion agreed to.