STATE OF THE COUNTRY.

HL Deb 29 November 1830 vol 1 cc675-87

Lord Wynford

said, that he rose for the purpose of giving notice, that he would to-morrow move for leave to bring in a Bill to lessen the expense of legal proceedings. He would take the opportunity of asking a question of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, whose speech the other night, he must say, he had heard with the utmost satisfaction, and particularly that part of it which related to the present state of the agricultural districts. With regard to the distresses under which the country unhappily laboured, he begged to ask the noble Earl if he was prepared to institute any inquiry into the causes and the extent of those distresses, with the view of alleviating them, and preventing future disturbances? He begged further to ask, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to confer on Magistrates such additional powers as might enable them to put down those disturbances which had now grown to so serious a height in various parts of the country?

Earl Grey

felt confident, that it was not necessary for him to assure their Lord ships that the matters, to which the noble and learned Lord had alluded had been, and would continue to be, constant subjects of consideration to his Majesty's Government. He certainly had no intention to propose that such an inquiry as the noble and learned Lord had mentioned should be instituted; but there would that night be a committee moved for, which would include no inconsiderable portion of the subject, and if it were thought desirable by their Lordships that the powers of that committee should be carried further, he should have no objection to accede to a proposal to that effect. With respect to conferring additional powers on Magistrates, it had not yet occurred to him that any such step was necessary. The law, as it at present stood, had been found by active Magistrates, who exerted themselves properly, to be sufficiently powerful to put down disturbances. He had, therefore, no intention to increase the power of Magistrates. Indeed, it was his anxious wish, except a case of absolute and extreme necessity should arise, not to depart from the provisions of the law; but if any such case of absolute and extreme necessity should unhappily arise, their Lordships might be assured that he would not be backward in asking from the Legislature such further powers as the exigencies of the case might require.

The Lord Chancellor

fully concurred with the noble Earl in the opinion he had expressed with regard to the efficacy of the existing law to put down the disturbances that prevailed. Until the law as it now stood had had a fair trial, it would not be expedient—nay, it would hardly be just—to alter it for the purpose of meeting those occurrences which unfortunately had arisen, but which he devoutly hoped would be found only of a passing and temporary nature. Every thing, however, should be done to enforce the provisions of the law; and he had no doubt that there would be an end to those disturbances, which were alike disgraceful to the people concerned in them, and ruinous to the object they professed to have in view; for there was no truth, he apprehended, more obvious than this—that in proportion as the public peace was disturbed, in the same proportion must the misery of those be augmented who suffered in consequence of the state of the public affairs being deranged and troubled. Holding, as he then did, a very high and responsible office with respect to the magistracy of the country, he trusted that their Lordships would accept in good part, and particularly the Lord-lieutenants of counties, the suggestion which he would take that opportunity to make? Far be it from him to desire to interfere generally with the discretionary powers which were vested in the Lord-lieutenants, and which they had in most cases exercised with a discrimination, impartiality, and correctness highly honourable to themselves; but there were some instances of names being omitted in commissions,—some instances of persons being passed over, whose powers, whose activity, and whose character, would make them desirable accessions to the present force of the magistracy. He did not allude to any district in particular, nor even to disturbed districts only because those which were now peaceable might be disturbed— but to all districts in which such omissions did exist; and he was sure, that when the character of the persons to whom he alluded was considered—when it was recollected, that besides being men of courage, and activity, and power, they were also not infrequently the possessors of large hereditary property,—he was sure, he said, that when these qualifications for a place among the magistracy of their respective counties were considered, the suggestion he now made would be sufficient, and that care would be taken that such omissions should not occur. He was sure, he repeated, that it was not necessary for him to do more than suggest, for it would be incomparably more agreeable to him if the noble Lords who held the office of Customs Rotulorum would supply such omission themselves, than leave them for him to supply; but if it should turn out, that he was too confident on the subject,—if he should find that any thing more than suggestion was necessary—which, he repeated, he was sure it was not—then he begged leave to assure their Lordships that he would apply himself to the subject; and he should feel He was not properly using the important powers vested in him if he did not exercise those powers to prevent the recurrence of omissions which it was at all times, and especially now, so highly important to guard against.

The Earl of Eldon

said, that he took it to be quite clear that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack was invested with the right to determine who should, and who should not, be Justices of the Peace; and, consequently, that it was in the power of the noble and learned Lord to take care that the magistracy was efficiently supplied. During the five and twenty years that he was Chancellor, he had been greatly indebted—and he begged now to acknowledge and to return his thanks for the obligations—to many noble Lords for recommendations of persons who were fit to be Justices of the Peace. It was obvious that a Lord Chancellor was not always capable of judging of the fitness or unfitness of persons to be Magistrates; and he must therefore say, that he felt greatly indebted for those recommendations. The only case in which he had ever interfered was, if he recollected right, when the late Bishop Barrington thought proper to strike out a person from the commission; and then he did interfere, because he thought that none but the Lord Chancellor ought to have this power. He did not recollect a single instance in which he had refused a recommendation; but he had always taken care that no Lord-lieutenant should strike out any person named in the commission. Having said thus much, he would only add, upon this subject, that he was convinced that a Lord-lieutenant, as Custos Rotulorum, was the person who ought to have the nomination of Magistrates, because he generally had accurate knowledge of who were proper and who improper persons to be Magistrates, but that, in the event of efficient persons being omitted, it was in the power, and, he might add, it was the duty of the Lord Chancellor to correct those omissions whenever they came under his observation. And now, in what he was about to say, he did hope it would not be thought that he intended to make any imputation against the late Administration, or against the present Administration,—he did hope it would not be thought that he intended to insinuate that not enough had been done to put down these disturbances. He knew, because he had experienced, how easy it was to blame the conduct of others: and no man could be more sensible than he was of the importance, nay of the absolute necessity, of proceeding with caution in circumstances of great peril. He saw, therefore, with the greatest satisfaction, that Special Commissions were to be sent into the disturbed counties; and, he hoped, not into the disturbed counties only, but into others also. Why did he say so? He said so because it was the great principle of the law of England, that justice should be administered in mercy, and there could not be an act of greater mercy to the misled and deluded people of this country, than to have persons sent down to them who would explain to them the nature and the provisions of the criminal law. Many—yes, very many, he was sure—were not aware of the criminality which attached to the offences they had been led to commit. He had been reproached, and others had been reproached, for not amending the criminal law; but the difficulties of the subject were greater than persons usually esteemed them to be; and, to a mind like his, they were, he was free to confess, insuperable. For they must have—they could not avoid having—a general description of crime; and it constantly happened that many cases fell within that general description, which were not foreseen nor expected by the framers of the law. An impression had gone abroad,—and it was with surprise and regret that he stated the fact,—an impression had gone abroad among the people, that they might meet together, and, if they used the language of begging, that they might employ all menaces which attached to formidable numbers. No impression could be more dangerous than this; and he did therefore hope, that those learned men who were about to be sent into the counties in which disturbances existed would take the trouble,— and if they did take the trouble they would have the blessings of the country,— would take the trouble of explaining to their deluded and mistaken fellow-countrymen the law of the land, and the reasons of the law, and the reasons why it was for their interest, and to the interest of the community at large, that it should remain the law of the land. He did believe that a few charges, properly and distinctly expressed, would be received with the spirit with which they ought to be received, and would correct the errors which unhappily prevailed at present. If, too, a more severe sentence should be passed than these deluded men had been taught to expect, he did hope that a distinction—a marked and obvious distinction—would be made between the misleaders and the misled. He had been told—God knew how true it was—that one of our county gaols was full of persons, who were not natives of this country. He fervently hoped that this was not true. In making these observations he had endeavoured to keep clear of all inflammatory topics, and he hoped it would not be thought that he had intended to cast blame on any one. Let him be believed when he assured their Lordships, that at his time of life, and at such a conjuncture, he could be actuated only by a desire of performing his duty.

The Lord Chancellor

begged to say a few words in explanation. When he had intimated that he would on all occasions defer systematically to the recommendations of the Lord-lieutenants, he had by no means forgotten the power which was reposed in him who held the Great Seal. He thought he had rather indicated to their Lordships that he recollected at once the existence and the nature of that power. All that he wished to state was, that without some unusual case occurred, he should be slow to interfere, and for this obvious reason,—namely, that local knowledge was necessary for a safe choice. Fully aware of the powers with which he was invested, he had, nevertheless, thought it a more delicate course to give this intimation than directly to interpose. He would take this opportunity of doing that which he should have done when he was upon his legs before if he had recollected it— namely, of giving notice, that on Thursday next he should move for leave to bring in a bill for the more effectual administration of justice in England and Wales, by means of Local Courts. To this bill he should beg most particularly to call the attention of the noble and learned Lords on the cross bench.

Viscount Melbourne

begged to say a few words in confirmation of what had fallen from his noble and learned friend on the Woolsack. He joined with his noble and learned friend in urging the Lord-lieutenants of counties to take measures for placing in the Commission of the Peace such individuals as, after careful inquiry, should be found, from their activity, zeal, and character, proper persons in whom to repose that confidence. There appeared to be some difference of principle in the motives for selection in different counties. In some, certain persons were included, in others they were excluded. He would not say which was right, or which was wrong; but he again begged noble Lords to consider well what description of persons it was advisable to introduce into the commission, and not to omit any who were likely to discharge the duties of the office with firmness, impartiality, and discretion. With respect to what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord opposite, the present was not the time to discuss that subject. He agreed with that noble and learned Lord, that many of the persons who had been lately led into the commission of crimes new in this country, were not aware of the extent of their offence; and he also agreed with him that it was necessary that the law should be speedily expounded, and carried into effect where necessary, but that the execution of it should be tempered with lenity whenever it should appear that the offenders were ignorant, and had been misled. If, how ever, the necessity should take place—which he trusted to God it would not— if the disturbances should spread—he had no wish to create delusion, but he had great hopes that they would be prevented from spreading— if, however, they should spread, his Majesty's Government would take measures promptly to suppress them, to preserve the public peace, and to maintain the authority of the laws. As to the fact stated by the noble and learned Lord, that there were many persons, not natives of this country, in one of our gaols, he hoped some allowance would be made for the circumstances under which he had come into office, and that it would not be expected that he could at present possess all the information necessary to meet such an allegation: but this he would say, that he had no reason to believe, that the noble and learned Lord's statement was well-founded.

The Earl of Eldon

, in explanation, said, that the statement which he had made was contained in a letter which he had that morning received. If, on further inquiry, he found that the statement was well founded, he should feel it his duty to wait upon the noble Lord, and communicate to him the circumstances of the case.

The Earl of Falmouth

observed, that the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government had said, that it was not his intention to propose any new measure in order to strengthen the law, unless in a case of extreme necessity. Now to him it appeared that a case of great, if not of extreme, necessity actually existed. A noble and learned Lord had told their Lordships, that one of the gaols was filled with persons apprehended during the recent disturbances, who were not natives of this country. It was notorious that many incendiaries, who had been unable to throw their own countries into flames, had issued forth to spread destruction elsewhere. It was not to be doubted that the greater part of those engaged in the recent outrages were English; but it was also probable that some foreigners were mingled with them. He admitted that the Special Commissions which were about to visit the disturbed districts were calculated to be useful; but he was apprehensive that they had not sufficient power to lay hold of the miscreants — the incendiaries, who were the really guilty persons. The farmers were compelled to go to the expense of protecting their property by night watches. This was an extraordinary scene, and appeared to him to require extraordinary powers and measures. No man was more attached than he was to our free institutions; no man was more jealous of liberty. But if there was any truth in the axiom that the public safety should be the supreme law, the present times came, in his opinion, within the meaning of that axiom, and demanded that some powerful measures should be adopted. He was persuaded that it would be impossible to lay hold of the incendiaries in question unless some strong measure—some temporary Alien Bill, should empower the Government to seize on any suspicious foreigners, and compel them to give an account of themselves. A measure of that description might be limited in its duration to three months, to two months, or to one month; but some such measure was absolutely necessary.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that after the fullest consideration which he had been able to give to the subject, he did not' see any reason or ground for thinking that any alteration in the existing law was necessary. The outrages which had taken place in the country were of two descriptions. The first was that open description of outrage, which there was no doubt might be got the better of by the operation of the ordinary law. The second was that description of crime—the destruction of property by fire, of the perpetrators of which Government had not hitherto been able to discover any trace whatever. It was supposed by some noble Lords that they were foreigners. He did not believe, however, that there was any evidence whatever of that fact. It was a description of crime that was certainly effected by a conspiracy of some kind or other; but whether the conspirators were foreigners or Englishmen no man could possibly say. As to foreigners being in gaols, he could only say, that with reference to one county in which outrages of the most flagrant kind had occurred, there was not one foreigner among the persons with which Winchester gaol was filled. He would trouble their Lordships with a few words on another subject, which had been introduced into the present conversation. He thought that it was desirable for Government to abstain as much as possible from interfering with the recommendation of the Lord-lieutenants with regard to the magistracy. Deeply interested as those noble Lords naturally must be in the security of the property, and the preservation of the tranquillity of their respective counties, they would, of course, select persons proper, and calculated to do their duty in assisting in the administration of justice. He had no doubt that those noble Lords would, however, attend to the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and that they would introduce a sufficient number of proper persons into the Commission of the peace. It was evident that, in most cases, local knowledge of character was indispensable before any individual could be safely recommended for the magistracy; and he therefore earnestly advised the noble and learned Lord, to abstain as much as possible from interfering with the recommendation of the Lord-lieutenants.

The Earl of Winchilsea

observed, that with respect to the county with which he was connected, he could add his testimony to that of the noble Duke, that up to the present time there was no ground for believing that the fires which had been so prevalent throughout the country were the work of foreigners. He differed, therefore, from the noble Lord, who was of opinion that some extraordinary legislative measure was necessary. He believed that the existing laws were sufficient to restore peace and tranquillity. From the Commissions which were about to proceed into the country, he anticipated great benefit; and he thought that the measure was an act of great mercy to the deluded people. In Kent he knew that the people were ignorant of the law, and ignorant of the punishment which the course that they were pursuing must bring upon them. He trusted, therefore, that the Commissions which were going forth into the districts in which the law had been violated, would be productive of great advantage. He had not been in the House when the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government had explained the course which his Majesty's Government intended to pursue, but he had read that speech with great gratification; and he was persuaded that the sentiments which it contained would be highly satisfactory to the great body of his Majesty's subjects. He was prepared to give his most cordial support to his Majesty's present Ministers in whom he had perfect confidence. Their determination to restore a constitutional representation should have his warmest concurrence. He congratulated their Lordships on seeing the Government of the country placed in the hands of talent and character, capable of meeting with effect the dreadful exigencies of the times.

Lord Carberry

thought it his duty to call their Lordships attention to proceedings of a most inflammatory description which were persevered in by some parties in Ireland. In particular, he begged to call their Lordships' attention to a meeting which took place on the 23rd instant, and at which most inflammatory language was used. He should think it a dereliction of duty not to advert to the subject and would beg leave to read the report, published in an Irish paper, of a speech then made by Mr. Maurice O'Connell, at a public meeting in Dublin:—" Mr. Maurice O'Connell was loudly called on from all parts of the room. He rose to address the meeting amid the most enthusiastic applause. He felt, he said, the most sincere satisfaction at beholding so respect- able a meeting as was then collected around him, and at that particular juncture of public affairs. Since they had last met, the iron statue with feet of clay had been prostrated to the earth—a golden idol was about being erected in its stead, to which, like its predecessor, they might expect to sec all the servile in spirit, in the House and out of the House bow down in lowly adoration. It was at such a juncture as the present that he feared lest the people should be led away by the word of ' promise to the ear,' but which had been ever broken by the fact—that, in the hope of a trivial good, they should have been deluded from the prosecution of that measure which could alone confer on them peace, happiness and prosperity—the repeal of the Union. The present Ministry, however, assured him, that his fears were vain, and that the people could not be deluded by any party of men. The truth was, that the persons at present coming into power had, while out of place, declared themselves against the wishes of the people: now that they were in power, they were not very likely to be more favourable to them. They had often seen that the man who, when out of power, was an advocate for the people, the moment he obtained it, underwent a magical transformation; and the trappings of office were frequently found to change his principles. The Irish, too, had seldom felt themselves in a better situation under those who called themselves their friends, than under those who avowed themselves their enemies. The time of delusion had; now passed, and for ever; the assembly there that day proved that the people would persevere in" seeking for a repeal of the Union, and that they would not be diverted from that glorious object by half measures—by Poor-laws, by grants of public money, and by the last invention to benefit Ireland—by the permission to the people to transport themselves to America at their own expense. The spirit of patriotism was spreading like the old signal flame on their hills—the spirit that was lighted in one parish was instantly transmitted to another—the flame extended from county to county—and all Ireland would soon feel the genial glow of the sacred fire which should for ever burn on the altar of a free country. They saw the same spirit animating the venerable Mr. Arthur and the young gentleman who had last addressed them—youth, sensibi- lity, and middle age, were animated with but one feeling and desire, and that was —the determination to obtain a repeal of the Union. After some other eloquent observations, Mr. O'Connell called upon every man, in every part of the country, to use his influence, however limited that might be, to have petitions forwarded for a repeal of the Union. If every man did this, it was not at all improbable, that before the end of the Session, the honourable House would be settling the conditions and terms of that impracticable measure—the repeal of the Union between Great Britain and Ireland. By every man exerting himself to the utmost of his power, in his own sphere, they might soon expect to see the Union flag fall from the tower of the Castle, and the green flag of Ireland raised in its place." His Lordship proceeded to observe, that if it were a crime to call on the people of Ireland to rebel, that crime the speaker of this speech had committed; and he expressed his conviction, that unless such proceedings were put a stop to, all Ireland would be in a blaze of insurrection in less than a month. The noble Lord also read the following letter from the Roman Catholic Bishop, Dr. Doyle. Carlow, Nov. 18, 1830. Dear Sir.—Though I regret being drawn into public notice, I cannot but appreciate highly the vote of thanks with which the numerous and very respectable meeting of the inhabitants of the parish of Cooperstown, in which you presided, lately honoured me. May I beg you will convey to them the expression of my gratitude, and accept for yourself my sincerest thanks. The Union question is one of great difficulty and importance. I have given to it all the consideration of which I am capable. I am unable to calculate all the consequences of a repeal; but, so far as I can do so, they appear to me useful to both countries—favourable to public liberty, and embracing those great and salutary reforms which a united Parliament will be slow and timid in effecting in Ireland. I don't much attend to what has been reported as said by a certain class of persons, whether in or out of Parliament, on the repeal of the Union. These persons, not all of whom are competent to form a clear or sound judgment, are generally men who have other interests than those of the great body of the English and Irish people; persons who are swayed by those interests, or by unfounded fears or idle apprehensions. Those persons, and such as those who are ' clothed in purple and fine linen, and fare sumptuously every day,' are averse to all change, are often dull of intellect, fond of ease, heedless alike of public misery, and of those encroachments on the liberty, and on the fruits of industry which scarcely ever reach themselves. The people should not be swayed by these men, for they neither feel nor suffer along with them; nor should the Government repose on their power or their influence, for power and influence, especially in Ireland, are not always allied to rank and wealth. With great esteem, on account of your exertions for years past to serve the poor, and to promote the general interests of Ireland, I have the honour to be, dear Sir, your faithful humble servant, " John Reynolds, Esq."JAMES DOVLE." Merchants-quay, Dublin." His Lordship added, that if such proceedings were put an end to, Ireland would be the most prosperous country in the world.

Lord Wynford

wished to give a notice, and he would give it for a distant day, in the hope that the subject might be taken up by some one more competent to treat it than himself, that he meant to bring the distressed state of the country under their Lordships consideration. He was persuaded that if something were not done to remove the discontent of the great body of the yeomanry of the country, the most serious consequences would ensue. He therefore gave notice, that on the 9th of December he would move for an inquiry into the distressed state of the agriculture, commerce, and manufactures of the country, and into the means of mitigating that distress.