The Earl of Darnleypresented a Petition from the city of Dublin, signed by 2,000 Artisans, Shopkeepers, and other industrious inhabitants of that metropolis, in favour of the introduction of a system of Poor-laws into Ireland. The noble Lord said, that it was absolutely necessary that some compulsory provision for the poor should be established in Ireland, in order to relieve the middle classes, and the description of persons who signed this Petition, and upon whom the support of the poor in that country was at present thrown. It was objected to such a measure, that the poor of Ireland were already supported by charity, which was perhaps true; but that did not exonerate their Lordships from the duty of relieving the middle classes from exclusively bearing that burthen. The gentry of the country, those who drew from it large revenues without ever seeing it, ought to be made to contribute their share. The necessity of such a measure he believed would soon force itself upon their Lordships' attention. For his own part, he had long advocated the introduction into Ireland of a legal provision for the support of the aged and infirm, but from circumstances and statements which had latterly come to his knowledge, he was led to believe that it would be necessary for the Legislature to go much further than that. He did not wish to introduce into Ireland the abuses of the English Poor-laws, but he believed that nothing short of a system founded on the principles of those laws could save that country from much misery.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that he could assure their Lordships that they would not hear a speech on the subject of the Poor-laws from him on that occasion. His noble friend had been kind enough to apprise him of his intention to present this Petition, and he thought it his duty to attend. He was not astonished at the statement of his noble friend, that this Petition was signed by 2,000 persons, for he was convinced that his noble friend might readily find in this metropolis, or any other city, more than 2,000 persons of the lower classes, who would be extremely desirous to be supported and maintained at the expense of the superior orders of 534 society. His noble friend had more than once accused him of speaking with warmth on this subject; he would abstain from doing so on the present occasion, and was always ready to say, that he believed that his noble friend was actuated by the purest views in the course which he had taken upon this subject. He appeared, however, to have shifted his ground considerably since he first brought this question under the notice of their Lordships. At first his noble friend professed to have nothing in view beyond the introduction of a provision for the aged and decrepid; but now he says, he does not think that that would be sufficient—that we must go much further—and that something more must be done than merely to introduce a provision into Ireland for the support of the aged and infirm poor. In fact, his noble friend now advocated the introduction into Ireland of a system of compulsory provision for the poor generally. He trembled at such a doctrine, for it left the door open to the introduction of all the abuses which at present existed under the English system of Poor-laws. If his noble friend would turn to the 43rd of Elizabeth, he would see what precautions were there taken to guard against abuses. These precautions however had proved unavailing, the abuses had crept in gradually, and now they had risen to such a magnitude, and let in such a torrent of misery upon this country, that in many places the rents of the landlords had been completely extinguished. In reference to the prayer of this Petition, for the extension of Poor-laws to Ireland, he would mention an anecdote, which appeared to him not inapplicable. In the middle of the last century, a religious dispute arose among the inhabitants of Magdeburgh, as to whether sinners would be hereafter punished in purgatory, or damned to all eternity. The dispute was referred to Frederick the Great for his decision, who replied, "if my good subjects of Magdeburgh like to be damned to all eternity I can have no possible objection to their being so." So he said to those petitioners—if they were so desirous to have the English Poor-laws, with all their multiplied, oppressive, and vexatious abuses, he had no objection to their undergoing the infliction; but he besought their Lordships to make a distinction, and not allow the petitioners to apply the same curse to other persons. He was not ill-natured, but he must say, that if the people of 535 Ireland would have the English system of Poor-laws introduced amongst them, it would not be painful to him to see them writhing under the sufferings which he had no doubt those laws would shortly produce there.
The Earl of Darnleyexplained, that he had hitherto advocated the introduction into Ireland of a compulsory provision for the aged and infirm only, but late circumstances had induced him to doubt whether it would not be necessary to go much further.