Lords Sitting of 11 May 1830

MINUTES.
Accounts ordered. On the Motion of Lord TEYNHAM, the amount of Hop Duty between 1820 and 1829 inclusive:—Of Hops imported in each year:—Of Acres of Land under Hop Cultivation in each year:—How often the payment of the Duties had been deferred during the same period, and arrears of Duty at present.
Petitions presented. For the opening of the Trade to India, by the Earl of DERBY, from the Inhabitants of Prescot; and from the Inhabitants of Belfast. Against the Punishment of Death for Forgery, by Lord AUCKLAND, from the Inhabitants of Great Yarmouth; and of Great Bardfield. Against increasing the Duty on British Spirits, by the Marquis of ANGLESEY, from all the eight Baronies of Wexford:—By the Earl of MANSFIELD, from the Clackmannan Agricultural Association:—And by the Karl of CHARLEVELLE, from the Inhabitants of Tullamore.

STAMPS ON NEWSPAPERS (IRELAND.)
The Marquis of Angleseypresented a Petition from the proprietors of thirteen Newspapers in Ireland, against the pro-posed increase of the Stamp-duties upon Newspapers in that country. The noble Martinis expressed his entire concurrence in the prayer of the petitioners, and added, that he thought their Petition was a document well worthy of the serious attention and consideration of their Lordships. The facts which they stated fully proved that the proposed measure would be perfectly useless as one of revenue, while one certain effect of it would be, the almost total destruction of the Irish press, which was already in a declining state. The measure in question went to lay on an additional duty of eighty-three per cent upon Newspapers, and forty per cent on advertisements, while it imposed a duty of 3s. 6d. on all charity advertisements, which were at present free from duty in that country. The petitioners prayed their Lordships not to suffer any additional duties upon the public press, but on the contrary, to reduce the duties which now weighed so heavily upon it. As an instance of the effect of an increase of duty, the petitioners stated, that the revenue arising from advertisements in Ireland was less now than it was twenty years ago, though the duty then was only 2-5ths of the present amount; and they likewise mentioned that that revenue had declined from 26,950 l., which was its average annual amount in 1812, to 14,985 l., its average in the year ending January, 1830. He therefore

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trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would not persevere in the measure against which this Petition was directed.
Petition read, and to lie on the Table.

POOR-LAWS FOR IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleypresented a Petition from the city of Dublin, signed by 2,000 Artisans, Shopkeepers, and other industrious inhabitants of that metropolis, in favour of the introduction of a system of Poor-laws into Ireland. The noble Lord said, that it was absolutely necessary that some compulsory provision for the poor should be established in Ireland, in order to relieve the middle classes, and the description of persons who signed this Petition, and upon whom the support of the poor in that country was at present thrown. It was objected to such a measure, that the poor of Ireland were already supported by charity, which was perhaps true; but that did not exonerate their Lordships from the duty of relieving the middle classes from exclusively bearing that burthen. The gentry of the country, those who drew from it large revenues without ever seeing it, ought to be made to contribute their share. The necessity of such a measure he believed would soon force itself upon their Lordships' attention. For his own part, he had long advocated the introduction into Ireland of a legal provision for the support of the aged and infirm, but from circumstances and statements which had latterly come to his knowledge, he was led to believe that it would be necessary for the Legislature to go much further than that. He did not wish to introduce into Ireland the abuses of the English Poor-laws, but he believed that nothing short of a system founded on the principles of those laws could save that country from much misery.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that he could assure their Lordships that they would not hear a speech on the subject of the Poor-laws from him on that occasion. His noble friend had been kind enough to apprise him of his intention to present this Petition, and he thought it his duty to attend. He was not astonished at the statement of his noble friend, that this Petition was signed by 2,000 persons, for he was convinced that his noble friend might readily find in this metropolis, or any other city, more than 2,000 persons of the lower classes, who would be extremely desirous to be supported and maintained at the expense of the superior orders of
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society. His noble friend had more than once accused him of speaking with warmth on this subject; he would abstain from doing so on the present occasion, and was always ready to say, that he believed that his noble friend was actuated by the purest views in the course which he had taken upon this subject. He appeared, however, to have shifted his ground considerably since he first brought this question under the notice of their Lordships. At first his noble friend professed to have nothing in view beyond the introduction of a provision for the aged and decrepid; but now he says, he does not think that that would be sufficient—that we must go much further—and that something more must be done than merely to introduce a provision into Ireland for the support of the aged and infirm poor. In fact, his noble friend now advocated the introduction into Ireland of a system of compulsory provision for the poor generally. He trembled at such a doctrine, for it left the door open to the introduction of all the abuses which at present existed under the English system of Poor-laws. If his noble friend would turn to the 43rd of Elizabeth, he would see what precautions were there taken to guard against abuses. These precautions however had proved unavailing, the abuses had crept in gradually, and now they had risen to such a magnitude, and let in such a torrent of misery upon this country, that in many places the rents of the landlords had been completely extinguished. In reference to the prayer of this Petition, for the extension of Poor-laws to Ireland, he would mention an anecdote, which appeared to him not inapplicable. In the middle of the last century, a religious dispute arose among the inhabitants of Magdeburgh, as to whether sinners would be hereafter punished in purgatory, or damned to all eternity. The dispute was referred to Frederick the Great for his decision, who replied, "if my good subjects of Magdeburgh like to be damned to all eternity I can have no possible objection to their being so." So he said to those petitioners—if they were so desirous to have the English Poor-laws, with all their multiplied, oppressive, and vexatious abuses, he had no objection to their undergoing the infliction; but he besought their Lordships to make a distinction, and not allow the petitioners to apply the same curse to other persons. He was not ill-natured, but he must say, that if the people of

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Ireland would have the English system of Poor-laws introduced amongst them, it would not be painful to him to see them writhing under the sufferings which he had no doubt those laws would shortly produce there.
The Earl of Darnleyexplained, that he had hitherto advocated the introduction into Ireland of a compulsory provision for the aged and infirm only, but late circumstances had induced him to doubt whether it would not be necessary to go much further.

POOR-LAWS IN ENGLAND.
Lord Teynhamsaid, he rose to claim their Lordships' attention to several Resolutions which he had to propose respecting the Poor-laws and their administration. Their Lordships, he was sure, would agree with him in thinking that the subject was of great magnitude and consequence, and they would permit him to occupy a portion of their time, while he explained his views regarding it, and presented to their notice the suggestions which appeared to him calculated to remedy the evils which all persons now admitted to be interwoven with the existing system of those laws. They look their rise in England in 1601, by the Act of the 43rd of Elizabeth, which laid the foundation of that system which had since prevailed in this country. There had been, however, in the reign of Edward 6th, a beneficial principle in action for giving relief to the aged and infirm poor, and also to provide labour for those who were unable to find it; but this last part of the system it was found impossible to carry into execution, and the magistrates and overseers substituted the practice of giving the distressed labourers money and food, instead of finding them work. The Act of Elizabeth was an extension of this system to the whole kingdom. It was from this practice of giving money, thus early begun, that at length the operation of the Poor-laws became intolerably oppressive. At present, from every part of the country there went forth the most grievous complaints. In fact, these laws were now used to measure out the means of subsistence to the labouring classes, whose wages were made adequate to their maintenance by payments from the Poor-rates. In the year ending the 5th of April, 1830, the average assessments on account of these rates was equal in some places to the whole produce
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of the parish. He knew that from twenty-five parishes in the county of Kent the sum of 35,000 l. was collected, so that it was now scarcely possible to provide subsistence for the growing mass of pauperism. The rate amounted to 12 s. 6d. in the pound, and in many places parishes were assessed at one-half their value. During the same period, 1,507 l. 15 s. were collected from the reputed fathers of bastard children. In fact, so depreciated had agricultural produce become of late, that even with the Poor-laws, relief could not be given to the numerous applicants, and there was little probability of collecting sufficient money next year to meet these demands. Whence arose such alarming evils, which weighed down the energies of a nation, boasting to possess the highest moral attributes of any nation in the world? The National Debt, and our enormous load of taxation were at the root of this evil. The national resources might be compared to a beautiful tree which had outgrown its strength, and must now have its branches clipped, or it would wither and decay if a new impulse could not be given to its vegetation. The Legislature had committed great errors in past times, and it ought now to repair them. When we diminished our war expense, we also circumscribed our currency, without at the same time economizing our public expenditure as rigidly as we ought to have done; so that taxation went on, as our means of meeting it decreased. The burthens fell heavily upon agriculture, and it could not bear up under them. The twenty-five parishes in Kent, to which he had alluded might be taken as a fair criterion of the condition of the greater part of that county, of Hampshire, and Sussex; and it could not be expected that we should be able to go on much longer in the collection of rates from such impoverished communities. The renters of land could not pay them; and if Government did not provide for the payment of them, the social system would be dissolved. If their Lordships and other great landholders, should be unable to meet the growing evil, they must give up their lands to the people to cultivate for their subsistence. Whence then would rent and taxes be obtained? Either their Lordships must provide some remedy for this appalling evil of growing taxation, or the land would be thrown back on their hands. Mr. Pitt, Mr. Wyndham, and other statesmen, devoted their zeal and energies

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to a mitigation of the evils of the Poor-laws. Mr. Ricardo, who was a great authority upon such matters, said, that we ought to abolish in toto, the latter provisions of the Act of Elizabeth, and leave those who were unable to provide work for themselves to the voluntary charity of the public. The plan, however, which he wished to have well considered was, whether means could not be devised for enabling the population to subsist on their own industry; and he believed that this might be achieved, were the Government to revise the whole system, the administration of which would be more provident, if, together with the turnpike roads, the whole were taken into the hands of Government. The county-rates, now very ill administered, amounted to a million and a half sterling, and were moreover most unequally assessed, being collected on the poor-rate assessment, which varied in every parish. These county-rates should, in his opinion, be paid out of the general revenue of the public, and the business of counties, together with the turnpike roads and bridges, should be taken into the hands of Government, and managed by a Board of Commissioners of Roads and Bridges. The average relief given to the poor in 1821 was 6s. 5d. per head per week; it was by the last returns less; and the overseers in many places declared, that they made the paupers as miserable as possible, in the hope of getting rid of them. The returns of the number of people who depended on the payments made under these Poor-laws presented a frightful spectacle. In fact, from the year 1823 to the year 1830, the number of persons having claims on these rates greatly exceeded the ratio of the numerical augmentation of the population in the same time, and every successive return shewed greater difficulty in raising the money necessary to provide for them. He held in his hand certain returns which would show the progress of this most fatal system. He would begin by shewing the depreciation in the price of labour, as evinced by a comparison between the year 1791 and the year 1827. In 1791 the price of wheat was 56 s. 1d. per quarter; the population amounted to 8,700,000; the malt then brewed to 27,900,000 bushels; the poor-rates, to 730,000 l. the price of weaving twenty-four yards of calico (ell wide), was 40s. 6d. In 1827, wheat was 60 s. per quarter; the population
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amounted to 13,500,000; the malt brewed to 25,000,000 bushels only; but the poor-rates were 7,800,000 l. and the price of weaving twenty-four yards of calico only 6s. 9d. In 1830 the population would probably amount to 14,000,000, and only 23,000,000 bushels of malt were brewed. The Poor-rate returns were not laid on their Lordships' Table, but the amount would most probably not fall short of 10,000,000 l. In the comforts of house-room for the labouring classes there was also a dreadful diminution. In the year 1690 1,300,000 houses were assessed to the hearth-tax, the population then being 5,500,000. In 1821, 2,000,000 of houses only were assessed to the house-tax, of which 800,000 were rated under 10 l. a year, with an increased population of 12,000,000. In the county of Kent, in 1821, there were 85,000 families, and 70,000 inhabited houses, leaving 15,000 families who had no houses, while there were 3,186 houses uninhabited. In that county, for the same year, the rental was 868,000 l., the-poor rate 392,253 l.: one-fourth of the parishes had select vestries and assistant-overseers, Poor-law clerks, and a whole system of that kind. In 1815, 895,700 families received parish relief in England, five persons to each family; making 4,478,500 persons relieved, or more than one-third of the whole population; 90,000 of these families were living in workhouses; five persons to each made 450,000 persons living in the workhouse, deprived of every domestic and every social comfort. The Post-office had, during the same time, continued stationary in revenue, though the rates had been raised, and the population doubled. There was also a lamentable comparative decrease in the consumption of tallow, shewing that the poorer classes were almost deprived of candle-light, and of course had lost all that work which could be accomplished by artificial light. In the consumption of tea there was a decrease also, and a wretched drug, manufactured from ash and sloe leaves on copper plates, was now nearly the only drink of the people, except deleterious and British-made spirits. The increased consumption of several articles bore no proportion to the increase of the population, which since 1800 had been more than forty per cent. In that year, 1800, the consumption of tea was 23,400,000 pounds; in 1823 it was 27,700,000, and in 1829 only

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30,500,000. During the late war he had the honour of communicating with Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas upon these matters, and though they were alive to the consequences of this system, nothing was effectually done to abate the evil. It was not then felt so severely as at present, the price of wheat was high, the agents of the country bankers were to be seen at the fairs, pressing their bank-notes upon the farmers. Their Lordships ought to endeavour, by legislative means, to produce a great change in the present system, which, if left unaltered, would grow worse and worse, until it realized the most frightful apprehensions. The productive industry of the country was unable to rally under the weight of taxation and Poor-laws, as was evident from the consumption of the necessaries of life not keeping pace with the advance of population. With respect to the degree of pressure upon Kent, he wished to observe, that the Kentish men would feel a great relief from the repeal of the Hop-duties; they were not worth retaining on the part of the Government, and abolishing them would be a great advantage to the people. If their Lordships looked to the details of the Quarter Sessions, they would see the necessity of something being done to amend the administration of the Poor-law; and be convinced that the Government ought to appoint a Board of Commissioners, to aid in the accomplishment of the desired object. He did not mean to say any thing further on the subject, than merely to express his hope, that the Resolutions he had to propose might be printed, even though no day should be named for taking them into consideration. He would beg leave further to observe, that by having a Board of Commissioners to look after these local concerns, a better system of management would be introduced, much useless labour and expense would be saved, and the surplus poor of the parishes employed in a regular and advantageous manner. At present, the debt on the turnpike roads of the kingdom amounted to about 6,000,000 l. bearing an interest of five per cent. Government could borrow that money at two-and-a-half per cent. The amount of tolls raised was about 2,500,000 l. half of which was expended on the bills of country lawyers, toll-keepers, money-lenders, Acts of Parliament, &c. It was, perhaps, the most vicious system of internal organization that ever existed
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in any country, and ought to be immediately abrogated, being inapplicable to our condition. In conclusion, he would beg leave to read the opinion of an able lawyer, who wrote in the days of King Henry 7th, when the peasantry of England were proud and happy, and the word "pauper" was unknown among them. Fortescue said, in his work "De Laudibus Legum Angliœ," c. xxxvi. p. 83:—"Every inhabitant is at his liberty fully to use and enjoy whatever his farm produceth, the fruits of the earth, the increase of his flock, and the like: all the improvements he makes, whether by his own proper industry, or of those he retains in his service, arc his own to use and enjoy, without the let, interruption, or denial of any one: if he be anywise injured or oppressed, he shall have his amends and satisfaction against the party offending; hence it is that the inhabitants are rich in gold, silver, and in all the necessaries and conveniences of life. They drink no water, unless at certain times, upon a religious score, and by way of doing penance; they arc fed in great abundance with all sorts of flesh and fish, of which they have plenty every where; they are clothed throughout in good woolens; their bedding and other furniture in their houses are of wool, and that in great store; they are also well provided with all other sorts of household goods, and necessary implements of husbandry; every one, according to his rank, hath all things which conduce to make life easy and happy." His Lordship then moved a series of Resolutions, the chief of which were as follows, the remainder being mere hints as to the details which would be necessary. To repeal the Act of 43 Eliz. c. 2, entitled, "An Act for the relief of the Poor" from and after——and all Acts passed since that period, that relate to the duties of overseers' assessments under the Poor-laws, Settlement laws, or Acts relating to bastards, and the maintenance of bastard children. And to declare and enact that from and after——all such duties of overseers, and all such Acts shall cease and determine. And it shall be enacted, that a rate for the use and maintenance of the lame, impotent, old, blind, and others, being poor and unable to work, also for orphans, or abandoned children, also for putting out such orphans or abandoned children apprentices or servants to various trades, &c. shall be raised monthly by assessments on all lands, tithes, houses, woods, or com-

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mons, factories, mines, canals, railways, wharfs, docks, that shall exist in each county, according to the averaged value per annum, half of the said rate to be paid by the owner or landlord, the other half by the tenant or occupier. That in order to carry this law into effect, the magistrates at the Quarter Sessions next ensuing, shall elect an officer to be called" Inspector of the Poor-laws of the county of——"with a salary of—per annum, who shall give sufficient security for the clue discharge of the trust reposed in him. And also the said magistrates shall divide the said county into proper districts, according to the number of their Petty Sessions, and appoint a sub-inspector to each district, under like terms. The decision of all cases to be left to the Magistrates, and their awards at Sessions to be final, and no lawyers allowed to interfere with the business, or plead before them.
"All persons to be considered entitled to the relief herein specified, who shall be hereafter born in any parish of the said county, or were residing therein for the year ending January 1st, 1830, if unable to prove their birth in any other parish. In case of disputes between any two counties, on any matter contained in this Act, arbitrators to be chosen from the Magistrates of an adjoining county, not interested in the said dispute, whose award to be final.
"Sub-inspectors to keep a book for each parish to enter the names, ago, &c. of those able-bodied men who want work, and to make a Return of the same to the Inspector, who shall communicate with government public works, &c. commissioners of highways, and others who want labourers, and give the requisite information to each parish, so as to cause a general circulation of labour where it is wanted.
"A Bill also to be passed, creating a compulsory friendly society in each parish, in which the assessment shall never exceed, upon all property aforesaid within the said parish, the sum of 6d. in the pound; which society shall have the clergyman of the said parish as its chairman, and all rate-payers as its members, also every labourer and mechanic who chooses to pay 6d. per week to the said fund, and a given number of the said subscribers to be members of the said society. Out of this fund all cases of want and distress amongst the subscribers are to be relieved. A rural
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guard to be constituted in each county, and a King's attorney appointed in each to conduct all prosecutions; the expenses of all trials to be paid by the county."
The Duke of Wellingtondid not rise to express an opinion on the many points touched upon by the noble Lord, but to suggest the propriety of his withdrawing his Resolutions, and bringing forward, should he feel so inclined, a substantive motion, in relation to the very important subject of the Poor-laws. The noble Lord could not, perhaps, confer a greater benefit on the country than a revision of those laws, and should he propose any plan of amendment, he (the Duke of Wellington) would give it his best consideration. But the Resolutions which the noble Lord then proposed, went, instead of directing their Lordships' attention to the practical defects, and the practical remedies for the defects, of the existing Poor-laws, to the considering a number of important questions and measures, each of which required minute investigation. The noble Lord first proposed, as a resolution, that they should relieve all the poor—a resolution, no doubt, very desirable, if it could be accomplished;—next, that they should have a new system of County-rates; that they should have a new system of Poor-rates, a subject of vast importance, and which should be disembarrassed as much as possible from every other;—that they should have a new system of road-making, so far as the employment of the poor in the formation of roads was concerned;—that they should have a new system of parishes;—and that they should have a new compulsory system of friendly societies—all subjects of importance, each well worthy of their Lordships' attention; but as such very unfitting to be presented in the gross in the manner of the noble Lord's Resolutions. He trusted, that without further remark, the noble Lord would see the expediency of withdrawing his Resolutions, and, if he would, of bringing the subject before the House in a more substantive form.
Lord Teynhamsaid, that he would act on the suggestion of the noble Duke, and withdraw his Resolutions.

HICKSON'S DIVORCE BILL.
The Bishop of Londonobtained leave to bring in a Bill to Dissolve the Marriage between Elizabeth Hickson and Thomas Buxton. The case was one, he said, of such a peculiar

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nature that he expected the willing support of the House to his measure. The lady was an infant in law, and was inveigled into a marriage by a regular conspiracy; in fact, the case was one of conspiracy and abduction; and though the marriage had not been consummated, its having been solemnized prevented the receiving of such evidence as would show informality in the proceedings before the ceremony. In the present instance, the banns were published sixty miles from the residence of either party, but according to the law this circumstance could not, as he had stated, be received in evidence. Hence the necessity of the present measure.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the facts contained in the Petition were of such a nature as to call upon their Lordships to interfere. The question as to the nullity of the marriage would remain to be decided hereafter.
The Bishop of Bristolcordially concurred in the propriety of bringing in the Bill as the only means by which the conduct of the parties could be investigated, but if it should turn out that the marriage had been legally contracted, he saw no ground on which their Lordships could be authorised to declare it null and void.

EAST RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
The hearing of evidence on this Bill was resumed, and the examination of witnesses continued till nine o'clock. Several witnesses, freemen of the borough, deposed to their having received packets, containing twenty guineas each, for their votes at East Retford, and to the evidence of general corruption.