Lords Sitting of 30 March 1830

MINUTES.
Returns Presented. Contracts of Timber for the use of his Majesty's Dock-yards made since January 1st, 1810. Correspondence between the Board of Trade, the Board of Control, and the Directors of the East India Company, with letters addressed by these Directors to the Government of India since July 26th, 1828, relative to the cultivation of Cotton and Tobacco in the territories of the India Company.
Petitions Presented. Praying for the opening of the Trade to Chins—By the Earl of KINNOUL, from the Corporation of Perth:—By the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Linlithgow:—By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from Stirling:—And by the Duke of DEVONSHIRE from the inhabitants of the Town of Derby, and from eighteen places in the County of Derby. Praying for an amelioration of the Criminal Code—By the Duke of DEYONSHIRE, from the Banters and Merchants of
1046
Derby:—By Earl MORLEY, from Exeter:—By the Earl of RADNOR from Farringdon:—By the Marquis of LANSDOWN from the Protestant Dissenters of South Street Finsbury Square;—And by the Marquis of Bute from Banbury. Complaining of Distress and praying Relief—By the Earl of RADNOR from the in habitants of Woodchurch:—And by Earl Stanhope from the Freeholders of Bedfordshire. And praying for the removal of disabilities from the Jews—By the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, from THOMAS FLANAGAN.

COMMERCIAL. TREATIES.
The Earl of Aberdeenlaid on the Table a Treaty of Commerce and Navigation which his Majesty had concluded with the Emperor of Austria and signed at London, December 21st.
Earl Stanhopeobjected to this and the other similar Treaties, which were founded on what was called the Reciprocity System. There was, in fact, no reciprocity, for all the advantage was on one side; that is, all was in favour of the foreign power, and against this country. Treaties for the encouragement of mutual commerce were highly advantageous; but these Treaties were for the encouragement only of the trade of other nations, and the ruin, of our own trade. When petitions were pouring in from all parts and from all the different interests of the country, complaining of distress, it was surely a bad time to sacrifice the interests of the ship-owners and others of our own country, in order to promote the interests of the foreign shipowner. It would be impossible for the British ship-owner to compete with the foreign, particularly with the ship-owners of the United States, on this system of reciprocity. It ought always to be kept in view that foreign vessels in general could be built and equipped at one half the expense that attended the building and equipping of British vessels. He profited by that opportunity of entering his protest against these ruinous measures.
The Earl of Aberdeenadmitted that this was not a Commercial Treaty of the description which would be satisfactory to the noble Earl with his view of the subject; but he was very far from admitting that this country would derive no advantage from it. With respect to the distresses of the country, and the distress of the shipowners particularly, these distresses did not arise in any degree from the alteration made in the Navigation Laws. Even if the increase of British shipping had been suspended of late years, still that would be no sure criterion that the alteration bad done harm, although a plausible argument might have been drawn from that circum-

1047
stance. But the fact was, that the British shipping had of late years gone on progressively increasing, and 400 more British vessels had passed the Sound last year than in any former year. All those Treaties, however, were in some measure matters of experiment, and therefore they were to be in force for a limited time; and in the present Treaty the duration was limited so that it would expire at the same time with the rest, and then Parliament would have the whole subject brought under its consideration. He found this Treaty advanced to a certain extent when he came into office, and the faith of the country was then in some degree pledged.
Viscount Goderichdid not think it necessary to enter upon the discussion of the subject at length, on the present occasion, as his noble friend had intimated that the whole matter would be, at a future period, brought under the consideration of Parliament. But he had some time ago moved for certain Returns, from which it appeared that since this reciprocity system was adopted, the British shipping had gone on in a constant progressive course of increase, as compared with the shipping of all the rest of the world, except Norway, which owing to particular circumstances in its situation had increased its shipping faster than England. In particular it had been predicted that British shipping would be sacrificed to Prussian shipping; but the fact was, that the British shipping almost to the exclusion of Prussian shipping, monopolized the trade between the two countries. The Returns he had previously moved for, ended with the year 1828; but he had little doubt that the increase had gone on in the course of the last year. Some spoke of these Treaties as if they were merely speculative schemes resorted to by Ministers without any kind of necessity. But that was far from being the case; for, as we had levied very high duties on the shipping of foreign states, they retaliated by imposing very heavy duties on ours, and in that way we were sure to have the worst of it. The adoption of this reciprocal system was therefore a matter of necessity. If it had not been adopted, there could scarcely be a doubt but that the situation of this country would have been much worse than it actually was. By its means the British shipping had been enabled to compete with the shipping of all the world. At present the trade carried on by British shipping with the United
1048
States of America, exceeded all the trade carried on with those States by the shipping of all the rest of the world put together. The ultimate effect of the system, he believed, would be of great advantage to this country.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that he had at first much the same view of the reciprocity Treaties as the noble Earl opposite. But he found from the Return that British shipping had gone on regularly increasing, and it was with great satisfaction that he felt himself bound to declare that he now thought he had been mistaken in his first impressions. He was not aware that the subject was to be discussed, or he should have come prepared with documents to justify his change of opinion.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that the Returns to which noble Lords alluded, included all steam-boats employed as passage vessels; and he was yet to learn that either the wealth or the naval power of the country was increased by the visits of the Londoners to Margate. His question was, whether we were carrying on a profitable or an unprofitable trade; and he contended that our trade was unprofitable. To say that it was not, because it was not altogether given up, was like saying that there was no agricultural distress because the farmers had not abandoned their farms. It was a plain matter of arithmetic that the English ship-owners could not compete with foreigners who built and navigated their vessels at half the expense of the English ship-owner. He wished to have an inquiry into this subject, for if the information which reached him were correct, he believed that our ship-owners were keeping their ships a float at a great loss.

SUPPLY OF THE PRECIOUS METALS.
The Marquis of Lansdownrose, pursuant to his notice of yesterday, to move an Address to his Majesty, praying that he would instruct the Consuls to the different States of South-America to make inquiries into the state of the South American Gold and Silver Mines, and to transmit to this country all the information on the subject which they might be able to collect. His wish was to procure, as far as possible, accurate information concerning the supply of the precious metals. He did not anticipate any objection to his Motion, and it would not, therefore, be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships with any lengthened re-

1049
marks on the subject at present. He wished, however, to observe, that nobody would be pledged, by agreeing to this Motion, as to any future course of proceeding. But in case any thing should happen which would render it necessary to depart from that sound metallic standard of currency which was now happily established, it would be most material for their Lordships to know the state of the South American Mines, which were the great sources of the supply of the precious metals. It would be difficult, perhaps, to procure a very accurate account of the degree of productiveness of the mines at present; but of one thing there could be no doubt whatever, and that was, that the changes and revolutions which had taken place among these States had a powerful effect in diminishing the produce of the mines. At the same time it might be that the effect which he' had mentioned had been in some measure counteracted by the use of extra capital, and by scientific improvements in the mining process. The general result of the whole might be a great variation in the relative quantities of gold and silver produced, and it would be most material for their Lordships to know how matters stood in that respect. Another material consideration was, that gold had been now found in the Russian dominions, and was raised in considerable quantities, and therefore he would propose that our Consul at St. Petersburgh should be instructed to procure all possible information as to the productiveness of the Russian Mines, and to send home a report on that subject. He would also add to the Address a prayer that his Majesty would be pleased to order to be laid on their Lordships' Table a copy of the evidence given by certain distinguished merchants before the Privy Council in 1828, as to the standard of gold and silver. In order to throw further light on the subject, he would propose, that his Majesty might be requested to direct an account to be laid on the Table of the amount of freight paid to the captains of ships of war and Government packets for the carriage of the precious metals during each year, for some years past. These were all the matters that occurred to him at present, but he had no doubt that the effect of the Address would be, to bring some valuable information before their Lordships. The noble Marquis concluded by moving an
1050
Address to his Majesty, involving the several matters which he had mentioned in his speech.
The Earl of Aberdeensaw no objection to the Address proposed by the noble Marquis. The truth was, that the Consuls had already been acting on instructions of a somewhat similar kind; but perhaps it might be of advantage that their attention should be directed more specifically to the points mentioned by the noble Marquis.
Lord Ellenboroughdoubted whether the Motion of the noble Marquis would answer the purpose which he himself had in view. It appeared to him that it would be requisite not only to know what was the amount of produce of the American mines, but also to know whither it went. Within eighteen years no less than 45,000,000 l. of the precious metals had been imported into the East Indies.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that there was a constant flux and reflux to and from India, so that it was scarcely possible to trace where the produce went. There could be no doubt that the increase of civilization, population, and taste for elegant luxuries, had occasioned a much greater expenditure of the precious metals in latter times than formerly. The chief fact however was to ascertain the produce.
The Earl of Malmesburyhad no objection to the Address, but he wished to make an observation on the subject of the great expense occasioned to the public by the salaries of these consuls. He had paid some attention to the subject, and he found that the expense amounted to 97,000 l. Till the year 1825, a great portion of the allowances to the consuls was made in the shape of fees paid by the merchants who had occasion for their services. But an outcry rose against that plan, and in 1825 the fees were abolished, and the expedient adopted of a salary paid out of the public purse; and of the 97,000 l., 70,000 l., he believed, consisted of salaries substituted for the fees. Now the system of fees was certainly liable to great a buses, but still he thought that under proper regulations it ought to have been continued. It was very fitting that part at least of the allowances to the consuls ought to be paid by those who more immediately profited by their services, and it appeared hardly just to throw the whole expenses on the public. He hoped the matter would be taken into considera-

1051
tion by Government. There was another fact to which he wished to allude, the whole of our diplomatic intercourse with the new States of South America had been carried on by consuls, and so long as that was the case they must be paid, but at present we had ministers. In his opinion this was not judicious, and he should prefer seeing our diplomatic relations with those States again in the hands of consuls.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that he had been paying some, attention to the subject, and he believed that he should, at no distant period, be able to submit a proposal to the House about this matter. But it would never answer to make the whole of the allowances to the consuls consist of fees; for if at any long period of a year the commerce of their stations should be suspended, the consuls might be reduced to great distress if they had nothing to look to but the fees. But in 1825, the old system had been very much objected to, and the fees had been abolished. But whether the change had been advantageous might be doubted; and perhaps the best plan might be to make the allowances payable partly in salary and partly in fees, guarding as much as possible against abuses. He hoped to bring forward a plan to diminish the expense. As to these South American States, almost the whole of our relations with them was of a commercial nature; but in every case where a minister was sent out, the office of consul-general was made to cease.
The Earl of Malmesburyexpressed his satisfaction at the explanation given by his noble friend.
Viscount Goderichsaid, that in 1825 great objection was made to the system of fees in the other House, and by merchants out of doors, and the consequence was the abolition of the fee system. Great caution ought, he considered, to be observed in the appointment of vice-consuls, and they certainly should not be merchants—this was more peculiarly necessary in a country wherein our relations were rather commercial than diplomatic.
The Earl of Aberdeenwas unwilling then to enter into any further particulars, the more especially as the matter arose incidentally.
Lord Hollandasked if the consuls sent to the north of Africa were appointed by the Colonial or the Foreign Office.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, the consuls to Egypt were appointed by the Foreign Office—those for the Barbary States by the Colonial Office.
Lord Hollandsaw no reason why the whole of these appointments should not vest in the Foreign Office.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that he did not wish the consuls to be wholly dependent on fees. He would give them a salary, more particularly as they were liable to be called on to perform services like that to which the present Motion related.
Motion agreed to.