Lords Sitting of 25 March 1830

MINUTES.
The Illusory Appointments Bill was brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. The annual Finance accounts, the annual account of the Droits of Admiralty, and other casual Revenues, and the sixteenth report of the Commissioners for the repair of Roads and Bridges in Scotland, were laid on the Table.
The following Returns were ordered to be laid on the Table, on the Motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGH—List of Hong Merchants, stating the particular privileges and powers with which they are invested in respect to the Canton trade:— Also, Statement of the Company's Establishment of Supercargoes, &c. at Canton, specifying the rank of each, their respective salaries, and all other charges of the establishment at Canton; likewise the commission paid to each on the European or Chinese sales of goods, or both,
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from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account showing the amount of all supplies received from the several Presidencies and Settlements in India, at the Factory at Canton, distinguishing the presidencies, and specifying the particular supplies under each head, and for each year, from the year 1809–11 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account showing the amount of all supplies received from the island of St. Helena, at the Factory at Canton, specifying the particular supplies under each head, and for each year, from the year l809–lO to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account showing the amount of all supplies from England to the factory at Canton in each year, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:— Also, Account showing the amount of the cargoes (and of what consisting) consigned from the Factory at Canton to England; likewise the amount of all payments for which England is debited, in each year, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account shewing the amount of all Bills of Exchange drawn upon the Court of Directors, by the Supercargoes of Canton, in each year, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive, in tales, converted into sterling money, at the rate of 6s. 8d. per tale, contrasted with the amount of the payment of the said Bills, actually made in sterling money;—Also, Account of Goods exported by the Court of Directors from England to Canton, in the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive, specifying the quantities of each, their invoice value, and a statement of the gain or loss on the sales of the Company's Exports in each year:—Also, Account of the Losses sustained by the East India Company in the China trade, in each year, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive, by perils of the sea, capture, damage or waste of goods, short deliveries, or other causes:—Also. Account of all Sums paid for freight, demurrage, or ships employed by the East India Company in the China trade, in each year, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account of the charges incurred by the East India Company on the Shipping at Canton, including the measurement of ships, &c. in each year, from 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account of Losses sustained by the East India Company, from perils of the sea, damage of ships or cargoes, from bad debts, &c in each year, from 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account of the actual cost of all the Company's Buildings in China, up to the latest date:—Also, a Statement of the Sums annually expended in repairs, rent, taxes, or otherwise, from the year 1809–10 to 1828–29 inclusive:—Also, Account Of Long Ells, Broad Cloth, and Camblets, demanded from and exported to China in each year, from 1811 to 1829, both inclusive:—Also, Account of Lead and Tindemanded from and exported to China, from 1811 to 1829, both inclusive:—Also, Account of sundry articles of British manufacture and produce, which have been exported to China upon experiment, not having been demanded by indent, in each year, from 1811 to 1829, both inclusive:—Also, Account of all Goods imported from China into Great Britain, from the year 1811 to the year 1828, both inclusive, specifying the quantity and declared value of the principal articles imported, and distinguishing the East India Company's trade from the Privilege trade:—And also, Account of all Goods exported to China from Great Britain, from the year 1811 to the year 1828, both inclusive, specifying the quantity and declared value of the principal articles exported, and distinguishing the trade of the East India Company from the Privilege trade:—Also, Extract from a Revenue letter from the Bengal Government to the Court of Directors, dated 29th of June, 1826, respecting the permission granted to Europeans to hold lands on lease, for the cultivation of Coffee:—Also, Minute of Mr. Trower, Member of the Board of Revenue at Calcutta, dated 25th of March, 1823:—Also, Resolution of the Government of Bengal, passed 7th of May, 1824:—Also, Extract of a Revenue letter from the Court of Directors to the Government of Bengal, dated 10th of September, 1828, in reply to a letter from Bengal of 29th of June, 1826:—Also, Extract of a Letter from the Court of Directors to the Government of Bengal, dated 8th of July, 1829, directing that Government to adhere to the terms of their resolution of 7th of May, 1824.
Petitions presented. Praying for the Repeal of the Laws

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imposing Disabilities on the Jews, on account of their religion, by Lord GODERICH, from Moses Solomons, Navyagent, Portsmouth:—By Lord KING, from Trivett Allcock, residing in Norwich. Complaining of the alterations in the Navigation Laws, by the Earl of ELDON, from the Ship-owners of South Shields:—Complaining of Distress, by the Earl of WINGHILSEA, from the inhabitants of Romney Marsh. Praying for the Abolition of Slavery, by Earl GOWRR, from Lane End and Henley, Staffordshire. Against the Tithe System in Ireland, by Lord KING, from Sutton, in the County of Wexford

WELSH JUDICATURE.
The Earl of Eldonpresented a Petition from the Gentry, Clergy, and Freeholders of the county of Pembroke, against any alteration in the system of Welsh Judicature;—also a similar Petition from the Mayor, Burgesses, and In-habitants of the town of never ford west. The noble and learned Lord said, he wished to take that opportunity of expressing his regret that he had been unable to attend in his place when the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack introduced the subject of the proposed changes in the law to their Lordships' notice; which was not from undervaluing the importance of the subject, or from any want of respect to the noble and learned Lord, but literally because he was unable. He would, therefore, without going into the subject to which their attention had been called, take that opportunity to state, that he would give his most serious consideration to the measures about to be introduced, and if he should be found opposing any part of them, it would not be from any spirit of contention, but from conscientious grounds of objection. Had he been in his place on Monday, he should most readily have corroborated what fell from the noble and learned Lord as to the unfounded assertions respecting the expense of the commissioners of inquiry into the Court of Chancery. The gentlemen who acted in that commission never received one farthing for their trouble. They not only gave their services gratuitously to the public, but their attention to the business of that commission was given at the sacrifice of considerable professional emolument. With respect to the inquiry proposed into the state of the Ecclesiastical-law, he admitted that the necessity of it was made out by a recent case, to which he would not then more particularly allude. As to the revision of the Criminal-law, Ins professional habits for a very long period of his life were such as to render him not the most competent judge on that subject, but he very willingly gave credit to those who had undertaken the task for a disposition and ability to improve the law and its administration. On the subject of the proposed
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change in the Welsh Judicature, he must say that there were parts of the judicial administration in that country with which he should be very unwilling to part;—for instance, he should not like to take from it the Equity Courts, which he considered to be a great advantage to that country. However, he would give the subject, when it came before him, his fullest consideration, nor would he assent to any change of part of that law without being most fully satisfied that the change would be an advantage to the country. He saw, in some publications, mention made of frauds in conveyancing: there might have been some, but as an old lawyer he would say to those who wished to alter the system, that they might make themselves easy on that ground,— generally there were no such things. He would again repeat, that he would give his best attention to the whole subject, and would support the proposed alterations, as far as he should think they were likely to benefit the public. With respect to allusions which had elsewhere been made to himself [as we understood the noble Lord, who spoke in a very low tone,] the practice of his professional life had been to adopt the lesson which he had heard from Burke—where he found he had been properly blamed he endeavoured to correct his conduct; but where he had been improperly blamed, he pursued his course steadily, without reference to the opinions of others.
Earl Cawdorsaid, that he was sorry to differ from the petitioners, but he thought that the assimilation of the practice of the law in England and Wales would be a great benefit to the latter country. He was sorry to have to differ on this point from the noble and learned Lord who had just sat down; but so far from thinking that the Equity Courts to which the noble and learned Lord alluded were a benefit to Wales, he thought them an encumbrance and a hindrance to justice.

IMPROVEMENT OF ROADS.
The Marquis of Salisburyrose to move for several Returns connected with the expenses of the Commissioners of the London and Holyhead, and London and Edinburgh Roads, to the production of which, he said, he understood there was no objection. The reason why he made the Motion was, that a committee had been, as he understood, appointed in another place to inquire into the state of those roads; and he wished that their Lordships should be in possession of all the information necessary to understand

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the subject, particularly the amount of the expense incurred by the commissioners. The noble Marquis then moved for the following Returns. An account of all sums of Money granted by Parliament for the improvement of the Road from London to Holyhead since the institution of the Commission for that purpose; an account of each Contract for works done on the different trusts; an account of the Debt incurred on the tolls of each trust; an account of the Tolls payable on each trust; an account of all Salaries paid under the direction of the Commissioners; and an account of all money paid for Surveys relating to the Roads between London and Edinburgh, and London and Portpatrick under the authority of Government.
Viscount Goderichwished to know, if his noble friend included in his Motion the whole of the receipts of the Commissioners, for if he did not, the account would be incomplete and incorrect; the whole expenses of the roads not being met by sums from the public purse:—a considerable part of the expenditure was made good by tolls which they were authorised to levy.
The Marquis of Salisburystated, that he wished to have an account of the whole expenditure for which the public supplied the funds, as well as that which came from other sources. What he most disliked was, a species of local taxation by Parliamentary Commissioners, which he considered to be very improper.
Viscount Goderichdoubted if the Commissioners levied any money except that which they were authorised to do by Act of Parliament. In order to support the expense, an increased toll was levied at some places, and there was an additional postage on letters conveyed from London to Dublin. From these sources the money at first advanced by the commissioners had since been replaced.
The Returns were then ordered.

EAST RETFORD.
The Marquis of Salisbury The Marquis of Salisbury moved, that a message be sent to the Commons, requesting a copy of the Minutes of Evidence taken before it on the East Retford Bill.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he did not rise to oppose the Motion, but merely to give notice, that if their Lordships should think the evidence sufficiently strong to warrant the second reading of the Bill, it was his intention to move an amendment in the committee—that the franchise be transferred, not to Bassetlaw, but to one of the great
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towns at present unrepresented—to Leeds, or Birmingham, or some other great town.

DISTRESS.
Lord Wharncliffepresented a Petition, signed by 3,500 persons residing in Huddersfield and its vicinity. They complained of great distress, and prayed for some relief. A part of their distress they attributed to the decline in the demand for Fancy Stuffs, which was so great as almost to destroy that trade; but the great cause of the difficulties they and other classes suffered, they attributed to the pressure of taxation, greatly aggravated by certain measures that had been adopted by Government, more particularly that of the change from a paper to a metallic currency. This change the petitioners thought should have been accompanied by a reduction of part of the national debt, or by some measure which would bring the property of the fundholder as much under the effects of taxation as the other property of the country. Upon these points he differed from the petitioners. He did not see what measure could be introduced which would have the effect of making the property of the fundholder liable in the way proposed. Nor did he admit the justice of any reduction of the national debt in any way by which faith would be broken with the public creditor. In that part of the prayer of the petitioners which sought for a large reduction of taxation he fully concurred, and he hoped to hear of still greater reductions than those which had been already announced by Government. He had great confidence in the disposition of Ministers to go as far as they could in reducing the burthens of the country.
Petition laid on the Table.

CORN AVERAGES
The Earl of Malmesburyrose to move for certain returns respecting the averages taken of the price of Corn. Those returns he considered of great importance in ascertaining how far the present mode of taking the averages was correct. Their Lordships would recollect, that when the Corn-laws were in progress through the House, it was said that a great been was given to the English farmer by including Irish wheat in the averages; but he had reason to believe that a very small portion of the wheat from that country was actually so included. The first return for which he should move was an account of the quantity of Corn imported into Liverpool from Ireland, and the quantity imported coastwise, from July, 1828, to January, 1830. The second Return would

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include an account of the weekly averages sent from Liverpool and Manchester to the Inspector of Corn-returns in the same period. By the correspondence between these, it would be seen how far the wheat imported from Ireland was brought into the general averages. In wishing that such Returns should be laid before the House, it was not his intention to found any motion upon them which would re-open the discussion of the general question of the Corn-laws. He had no such wish, and to do so he was sure would not be in accordance with the inclination of their Lordships; but it did not follow, because they did not like to have the question re-opened, that they should not have an opportunity of judging how far the present mode of taking the averages was correct. The object of the Corn-laws was, to give protection to the British Corn-grower; but, in his opinion, it did not afford it to him to a sufficient extent, or to the extent contemplated by the Act. It was a great misfortune that the bill had not been divided into two, as had been suggested by himself and others. If it had, the question of the averages, which ought to have been the object of one bill, might be reconsidered without any danger of reopening the whole question; but without intending any such course, he thought Parliament was bound to adopt such measures as would best tend to carry its original object in passing the bill into effect. There was, at this very moment, a considerable rise taking place in the Corn-market, which be had reason to believe was the result of artificial operation. Some parties seemed desirous of creating an opinion that there was not a sufficient quantity of Corn in the country, but he had no doubt that such an opinion would be found erroneous, as the stock on hand was very considerable. By artificial means Corn might be raised to such an average price as would greatly diminish the import duty on foreign corn. This was the case last December, when a rise on the general average of 2s. 4d. per quarter had the effect of diminishing the duty 11 s. and the consequence was, that 400,000 quarters of foreign Corn were at once poured in on the market. Had this rise been the result of a really diminished stock, insufficient to meet the demand, he would not object, but it ought not to be permitted when it was not the result of the actual quantity of Corn in the country. The Corn-law was passed for the benefit of the consumer as well as the grower, and it was right, that if by the present mode of taking the re-
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turns an error was let in in calculating the averages, that error should be corrected. He thought the duty of the inspector of Corn-returns should not be confined to the mere casting up of figures, but that this officer should be satisfied of the manner in which the returns were made, and of the correctness of the data on which the weekly averages were calculated. The noble Earl concluded by moving for the Returns he had specified.
The Earl of Limericksupported the Motion. It was right, if the quantum of protection to be given to the British Corn-grower were to be measured by the averages, that the mode of taking those averages should be as correct as possible, and they could not be so if the returns did not include the whole of the home-grown Corn brought into the market.
Motion agreed to.

TAXATION.
Lord Suffieldsaid, he had to present to the House Petitions from the owners and occupiers of land in the several hundreds in the county of Norfolk, complaining of great distress, caused by the excessive burthen of Taxation, from part of which they prayed to be relieved, more particularly from the burthen of the duty on malt. The petitioners complained that they were now in a worse situation than they were ten years ago, and they stated, that the capital of the farmer had been very materially reduced, which proved that his trade had been a losing one. In adverting to the distress of the country, it was not his intention to advocate the interest of one class more than another because he happened to belong to it. He had been an enemy to the Corn-laws from the beginning, because he felt that they failed in giving that protection to the home-grower which was intended, and at the same time they had not produced any advantage to the consumer. Bread was still too dear, though the farmer did not derive any benefit from the high price. What the farmer required was, a reduction of rent, and that had taken place to a considerable extent, and a still greater reduction must take place. The petitioners, he admitted, did not pray for any such reduction, but there was no doubt that it would be a relief to them. Indeed, too high rents could not be long continued, for in the result they would operate to the injury of the party receiving, as well as to the party paying them. The distress of the country, however, did not arise in any great degree

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from that source. He looked upon our present condition as a just retribution on us for not having availed ourselves of the opportunities which had been afforded us of obtaining effectual relief. That relief, in his opinion, might have been obtained, and was still to be obtained, by a proper administration of the laws respecting the Poor. By a due attention to those laws— not by the farmers, for the matter did not rest with them, but by the gentlemen and magistrates of the country—the burthens of the poor-rates might be greatly, and in some parts of the country, wholly reduced. He could prove that this had actually taken place in some places, and that was more conclusive than any reasoning he could offer to their Lordships on the subject. He would not pursue this point farther, as a more fit opportunity would present itself. The petitioners also prayed, and he fully joined them in that prayer, for a reduction of taxation, because he considered a large reduction was necessary to relieve the country. He rejoiced at what had been done in that way, but he did not think it went far enough. He should like to see a reduction of the duty on Malt, on Coals, Soap, Candles, and other necessary articles of consumption which bore very heavily on the people. At the same time he felt grateful to Government for the relief it had already afforded, and he would venture humbly to hope that still greater reductions of taxation would be made.
Petitions read, and to lie on the Table.
The Earl of Eldon, referring to what fell from him on a former occasion in respect to the debt of the country, said, that what he stated had been incorrectly given. He was represented to have said, in allusion to the alteration in the currency, that debts contracted in a depreciated currency ought to be paid in a depreciated currency, or at the same rate they were contracted. He was in the recollection of several noble Lords, and he could appeal to them in stating that he had said no such thing,— quite the reverse. He should consider such a proposition as extremely unjust.

KENTISH PETITION.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that he had been requested to present a Petition, agreed to at a public meeting held in the county of Kent, and that he acceded to that request with the more pleasure, inasmuch as he heartily concurred in the prayer of the petition. He should not have troubled their Lordships with any observations upon the respectability of this
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meeting, had it not been for some remarks which had been made by a noble Marquis (Camden), whom he had much pleasure in calling his friend,—he meant the noble Lord-lieutenant of the county of Kent. His noble friend had represented it as a meeting called by a political party for the purpose of exciting opposition to the present Government. Now this would be no valid objection, even if the fact were so; but it was perfectly clear that such a party could not have prevailed upon the county to express such opinions if the state of things represented in the petition to exist in the county did not really exist. If the petitioners thought the distress to be partial, or if they thought it arose from causes not under the control of Parliament, they could not have been prevailed upon by a political party, either to sign the requisition for the meeting, or to concur in the sentiments contained in the petition. The persons who signed the requisition were of all parties and of all opinions in politics, and they came forward only from being convinced that there was a necessity to demand an immediate inquiry into the condition of the country. For his own part he had openly stated his opinions of what was requisite for the welfare of the country, and asking for nothing, wanting nothing, wishing for nothing, that Ministers could give, he should support any government that acted on principles which he thought beneficial to the country; and he should oppose any government which acted on contrary principles. So much, then, for the meeting in the county of Kent having been got up for the sake of distressing the Government. His noble friend, too, had impugned the accuracy of the statement of the petitioners, when they said that the grievous and general distress of the country demanded the immediate attention of that honourable House. His noble friend had said, that the distress was not so general, and that it was not so grievous in the county of Kent as the petitioners represented it to be; and in proof of this, his noble friend had said that farms were still generally in cultivation. His noble friend ought to have stated, at the same time, that the farms were cultivated at very considerable loss. He did not know whether it was the duty of a Lord-lieutenant to give to the Government a very flattering account of the county over which he presided; but he was sure that, in the present instance, it would be a very difficult matter; because it could not be done without concealing some facts

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and distorting others. He could tell his noble friend that he had been informed by one of his (the Marquis Camden's) own tenants, that he had lost 200 l. by his farm last year, and consequently, though farmers did not throw up their farms, it did not! follow that they were not losing. His noble friend had said that his rents were well | paid. He congratulated his noble friend upon this: but the fact would prove no- thing, unless his noble friend could show that those rents were not paid out of the tenants' capital. A noble lord (Suffield) had suggested that evening that reduction of rents would do good: but how did the distress of the landlords arise, except from the reduction or the utter withholding of; rents? He could have no objection to any noble Lord reducing his rents as low as he pleased, but, in the name of other noble Lords, and in the name of the rest of the landlords of the country, he must protest against measures which were not only | objectionable in other respects, but which must inevitably lead to that result as a matter of necessity. There were some; parts of the country in which no reduction of rents could take place for this simple reason—namely, that there were no rents at all paid. The parts of the country to: which he alluded were those in which the poor-rates amounted to the full 20 s. in the pound. The petitioners stated that the; amount of taxation was greater than the country, under existing circumstances, could bear. Upon this statement he begged to observe, that taxation had been virtually doubled since 1819; that was to say, it was necessary to sell double the produce now to pay the same amount of taxation. The petitioners went on to state, that the poor-rates had increased to so great an amount as to leave no profit either to the landlord or to the tenant. Now, upon this subject he could state, that he knew of i landed property upon which the assessment, for poor-rates had doubled within the last fourteen years. He knew one farm, consisting of 1,341 acres, which paid 994 l. per annum for poor-rates. He knew another instance in which the poor-rates amounted to 2,900 l. a year, while the estimated rental of the estate was only 2,500 l. He was acquainted also with a farm which let only for 50 l. a year, while the rates and taxes levied upon the same farm amounted to 112 l. a year. He could produce many other similar instances, but he should reserve them until the debate which was about to come on respecting free trade. The
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petitioners went on to complain of the evils which had arisen from want of sufficient protection to agriculture, and from those measures of free trade which were incompatible with the present situation of the country,—evils which had been greatly aggravated by the alteration of the currency. The petition concluded by a prayer, so common in similar petitions at present, for a reform in Parliament, conducted on proper principles. He perfectly concurred in the prayer of the petition for Parliamentary Reform thus limited. He had always expressed his disapprobation of what was called radical reform, and he still disapproved of it; but to limited and wholesome reform he was friendly, because he conceived, and recent experience had confirmed the opinion, that the House of Commons did not express the feelings of the people. Under such circumstances of distress as were general in all counties, and which were intolerable in some, he was not surprised that the people should call for reform in Parliament; but, in an ancient and dilapidated edifice like the Constitution of this country, they must be careful lest, in making alterations, they destroy the edifice itself. This cry for reform might not be very agreeable to the Government; but he was sure that if the object of Government had been to excite the people to raise this cry, it could not have taken any more effectual means than those which it had pursued. He would not detain their Lordships any longer, because he trusted he should have other opportunities of discussing all these topics fully.
Petition read.
The Marquis Camdensaid, that as his noble friend had thought proper to make a great many observations upon what he had felt it his duty to say in that House, he would tell their Lordships what he had meant to say on the occasion referred to. He had meant 40 say, that as far as his experience and means of observation would allow him to form an opinion on the subject, the distress complained of was not so great or so general as it had been represented to be by some persons in that and in the other House of Parliament. As to the County of Kent, he had said that the distress was not so great as it had been represented to be. He spoke from his own experience, and their Lordships would do him the justice to recollect that what he had said was founded upon a comparison which he had made between this and former years, the result of which comparison was, that the

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county was not so distressed as it had been in former years. When, too, he had spoken of a political party, he knew that political opinions on certain subjects ran high in Kent, and he knew that political opinions upon one point were often apt to influence men's conduct on others. It had been so with him, and he had no hesitation in confessing it. He had no hesitation in saying, that—it was a great many years ago, certainly—he had, with the father of his noble friend (Earl Stanhope), attended public meetings for the purpose of exciting popular feeling against a government of which he disapproved. He had meant to say nothing offensive in what had fallen from him on this subject, and he trusted that, however his noble friend and he might differ in politics, their friendship would be undisturbed. As to what his noble friend had said about the duties of a Lord-lieutenant, he appealed to the noble Duke (of Wellington) behind him, if he had been officious in communicating information to the Government.
The Duke of Wellington. — Certainly not.
The Marquis Camdencontinued.—He bad spoken as an independent Peer; and in that capacity he had thought it right to express the opinions he entertained. Again, if the county of Kent were as much distressed as it was said to be, or even more so, that could not prove that the country generally was distressed. Besides, it should be recollected that there was a peculiar culture in Kent—that of hops. The low price of that produce, and the duty upon it, might have made it very difficult for the growers to remunerate themselves. His noble friend had alluded to a tenant of his (Marquis Camden's) who had lost 200/. by his farm. He did not know who that tenant was, but he thought it not unlikely that a tenant who wished his rent to be reduced, or the day of payment deferred, would hit upon such an argument.
Earl Stanhope, in explanation, said, he trusted his noble friend did not think he had meant to say that his noble friend's conduct had proceeded from any but the most conscientious motives. As to distressing the Government, he thought it the proper course to excite noise, and he pleaded guilty to the desire to excite noise, both in that House and out of it, when he found himself beaten by numbers, and not by arguments.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, he felt some reluctance to intrude upon their Lord-
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ships after the result of the debate of the other night. He had not the vanity to suppose that any thing he could say would be of any avail, when he had seen how useless had been the powerful and eloquent appeals which noble Lords had made for their distressed fellow-countrymen, who called upon their Lordships to discharge that duty which the country had a right to demand. He should, however, feel that he was wanting in respect to the petitioners if he were silent now. In the few observations he had to make he should confine himself chiefly to some of the views which the petitioners took of the causes of their distress, and to the ultimate result of those causes. Me would not occupy the time of their Lordships in proving the existence of that unparalleled distress, of which the country complained; nor would he afflict their Lordships by detailing the heart-rending cases of misery which had come under his own observation. He would, however, briefly but boldly assert, against the opinion of the noble Marquis, whom he was proud to call his friend, that the distress which now pervaded the agricultural interest had not been exceeded in the memory of the oldest man living. He wished that noble Lords who expressed an opinion that the distress of the country was not so great as some persons imagined, had taken the trouble to inquire how rents were paid; if they had, they would find that in many instances the rents came out of the capital of the tenant, instead of coming out of the fair profits of the cultivation of the land, and that in other cases rents came out of the capital of the landlords themselves. Such was the case where pasture lands were broken up, and converted into arable lands. The noble Earl proceeded to allude to and deplore the diminution of the yeomanry of this country, who had formed the intermediate and connecting link between the landholder and the peasantry,—a class that, in the hour of trial and danger, whether arising from foreign or domestic foes, had proved our best safeguard and defence. With respect to himself, his opposition to the measures of Government was any thing rather than a factious opposition. He opposed them upon principle, because he was convinced they were injurious to the country. He had no longer any confidence in parties with whom he had been previously allied,—for him, the ties of private and political friendship had been cruelly severed. He wished that the noble Duke, who now possessed an estate in Kent,

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would spend some of his time there during the Easter recess, and inquire into the condition of the county; he would find the district of Romney Marsh, up the Weald of Kent, formerly celebrated for rich pasture lands, in a state of great distress. Capital was fast diminishing there, and the farms were not properly cultivated, on account of the poverty of the holders. He knew instances in which farms had been let for the next three years free from all charge in the shape of rent, on the condition that they should be properly cultivated. In many districts; the greater part of the labouring population was wholly unemployed, except during the few weeks of harvest. Let the noble Duke terminate his journey in Kent by a visit to the noble Marquis who had just addressed the House on the subject, and to the noble Karl below who had preceded him, and he would find, that the tenantry were in many cases remaining on their farms because they could not quit them without leaving their property behind, and selling it at a loss of 40, 50, or 60 per cent. He was informed by a county magistrate, such was the distress in the town of Chatham and the neighbouring district, that the magistrates were frequently employed from morning till night in devising measures for the assistance of the poor. The petitioners stated, that the contraction of the currency was one cause of their distress. He agreed with them in this. Before we ventured to contract our currency, we should have diminished the national debt. If we did not give the country a more extensive circulation, it would be impossible for us to struggle much longer with our difficulties. He was decidedly of opinion that the establishment of provincial banks, with liberty to issue notes (proper security being given), would be advantageous to the county in which he resided. Another cause of embarrassment to which the petitioners alluded was, the system of taking off prohibitory duties, and allowing articles of foreign produce to compete with the produce of native industry. If the unequal pressure of taxation under which English agriculturists suffered, as compared with those of foreign countries, could be removed, he should be an advocate for a free trade in corn, and a free admission of foreign produce; but as matters stood at present, he maintained that free trade had been attended with very mischievous effects upon the interests of this country, inasmuch as it had been the means of introducing the competition of foreign labour, at a time when our own population
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could not obtain sufficient employment. The petitioners stated, that if things continued as they were, they must ultimately become unable to pay the taxes and their debts; that bankruptcy would be their portion, and ruin that of the State. He very much feared that matters would become worse and worse in the course of a few months, if some remedy were not resorted to. There was another point to which the petitioners alluded,—Parliamentary Reform. He would not enter into that subject further than to say, that in his opinion the people did not possess the weight and influence to which they were justly entitled in the Commons House of Parliament, and that an unconstitutional influence was frequently exercised in the return of its Members. But he was no radical reformer, and when the proper time came, would discuss the question on constitutional grounds.
The Marquis Camdensaid, in explanation, that he had spoken of the stale of things in his own neighbourhood, and represented it as improving.
The Earl of Darnleyobserved, that some apology might be expected from him for not taking a part in the getting up of the petition, particularly as he was connected with the county from which it had emanated, and was known to be favourable to these expressions of public opinion. But he had not interfered because he was convinced that the distress complained of could not be relieved in consequence of any proposition of the meeting, and that the suggestions of the noble Lord (supposing him to be favourable to them) were likely enough to be counteracted. In 1822, when according to his opinion the distress was greater than at present, a county meeting was held in Kent, at which Mr. Cobbett attended and proposed an equitable adjustment. On that occasion, acting, as he thought, the part of an honest man, he had opposed the proposition, but he stood almost alone in his opposition, and it was carried by acclamation. At another county meeting in Kent, the noble Earl proposed a loyal Address, when up started an auctioneer, from Rochester, knocked down the proposition, floored the noble Earl, and his second, and bottle-holder (a noble Lord not now in his place), and upset the entire proceeding. [Laughter] Would the noble Earl say, that on this recent occasion the majority of the meeting were not in favour of an invasion of Church property? Let it be recollected that a re-solution against tithes was eventually car-

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ried. The grounds of his reluctance to attend the meeting were now explained. He could truly state that the distress was not so general as had been represented; and he was of opinion, that having already readied the lowest point of depression, our condition would improve. The Petition adverted to the Currency and the Cornlaws: he believed and trusted that the noble Duke at the head of the Government was determined to tamper with neither AN interference with them could only be productive of mischief. Ministers had done what they could to alleviate distress by a reduction of taxation, which, it was admitted on all hands, must be serviceable to the country. Besides, Government had pledged itself to take the earliest opportunity of effecting still further reductions. If, any man could point out better or speedier means of relief than had been brought forward, he would go hand and heart with him; but nothing more efficacious had been discovered, it should be the object of their Lordships rather to endeavour to hold out to the people consolation and hopes of better times, than to draw exaggerated pictures of distress, and say, bad as things were they would become worse. The noble Karl having observed that the meeting at which the petition was agreed on was a highly respectable one, concluded by stating that he felt as anxious as the noble Lords who preceded him to relieve the distress, but could not countenance the adoption of doubtful and hazardous remedies.
Earl Stanhopesaid, with respect to the idea of the majority of the meeting being favourable to the counter-petition, he thought the majority was for the original proposition, but admitted that if so it was by no means a large majority. However, it was all matter of opinion, and the High Sheriff had decided differently. The noble Earl (Darnley) had alluded to former meetings at which he (Earl Stanhope) was not present, and stated that a proposition for an equitable adjustment was carried at one of them. He was not a friend to what was called equitable adjustment,; because he thought it could not be effected in an equitable manner. However, to that we must come at last, or adopt an issue of paper money. He did not wish to allow! bankers to make such issues without requiring from them proper security, and would rather have country bankers the distributors than the creators of paper money. He should not object, for instance, to an issue of Government paper. Noble
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Lords talked of the benefits of reduction of taxation; was the noble Duke prepared to reduce our expenditure and taxation to the scale of 1791? Was he prepared to reduce the debt fifty or sixty per cent and all fixed payments in the same proportion? If not, he must consent to the issue of paper money to enable the country to bear the burthen of taxation, which had been virtually doubled within the last ten years.
Lord Suffieldexpressed his partial concurrence in the statements of the noble Earl behind him, who had drawn with such strong colouring a picture of the distress experienced in Kent. Many of the noble Earl's remarks would apply to the county (Norfolk) with which he was himself connected. He regretted as much as the noble Earl the diminution that had taken place in the class of yeomanry: persons of from 500 l. to 1,500 l. a year had felt the pressure in a very extensive degree. However, he did not think the distress attributable to any act of the noble Duke, or the Government: on the contrary, he was of opinion that it was the result of long-continued circumstances over which they did not possess any control. He should oppose the Ministers whenever he considered their measures to merit opposition; but he did not think them wrong or deserving of censure at present.
Petition to lie upon the Table.

FREE-TRADE—IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
Earl Stanhopesaid, he understood it was not the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to offer any opposition to the production of the Returns which he wished to obtain, the motion for which he had given notice of on a former day. This being the case, he should not enter into the subject which the Returns involved upon the present occasion, reserving to himself the right, at a future opportunity, when the accounts were before the House, to make his observations on the question of Free Trade. The noble Earl moved for accounts of the declared value of Foreign Manufactured Silk imported into Great Britain in 1826, and the three subsequent years; of the English Manufactured Silks exported in 1823, and each subsequent year; of the value of articles of Leather imported in each year subsequent to 1823; of the quantity of Gloves imported within the same time; of our Exports and Imports generally to and from France in 1828 and every subsequent year; also for an account of the expenses incurred in the mainte-

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nance of the Preventive Service, from its establishment up to the latest period at which they could be made out.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he had no! objection to the Returns being furnished, and should himself move for the production of further returns, explanatory of the subject, upon a future day.