Lords Sitting of 16 March 1830

MINUTES
The Twelve Millions Exchequer Bills' Bill and the Transfer in Aids' Bill were read a third time and passed.
The Mutiny Bills, and Personal Estates Duties' Bill, were brought up from the Commons by Sir ALEXANDER GRANT and others—Read a first time.
Petitions were presented against the East India Company's Charter:—by the Duke of GORDON, from the Merchants, Manufacturers, and other Inhabitants of Aberdeen:—by Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from Beeston and Churwell in Yorkshire. Complaining of Distress and praying for relief:—by the Earl of LIMERICK, from the Weavers of Limerick:—by Earl RADNOR, from Dunsley (Gloucestershire), and from certain Merchants, Manufacturers, and Tradesmen of London:—by Earl STANHOPE, from the Hundred of Launditch, Norfolk. Against the Bread and Beer Tax:—by Lord KING, from a district in Gloucestershire. Against the extension of Poor-laws to Ireland:—by the Earl of GLENGALL. from a place in Cavan. Against the Truck System:—by Lord CALTHOEPE, from the inhabitants of Darlaston; and against the Punishment of Death for Forgery:—by Earl BATHURST, from Cirencester.

COAL, TAX.
Lord Wharncliffe, in presenting a Petition from the Dyers and Manufacturers of Norwich against the Tax on Sea-borne Coals, said, that this was a most unjust tax, and when so many taxes were taken off it was most unfortunate that this was not among the number. It was a direct tax on productive labour, and fell particularly heavy on the petitioners, as coals were essential to the use of the machinery by which their trade was carried on. To shew their Lordships the effects of this tax he would mention one curious fact. The people of Norwich were actually obliged to send their wool to Yorkshire to be spun, and after being spun, it was sent back to Norwich to be manufactured into camlets and other stuff's. This was entirely owing to the cheapness of fuel in Yorkshire, which enabled the people there to apply the steam-engine to the purpose of spin-
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ning. Coals were also a necessary of life among all classes, and the tax fell particularly heavy on the poor. In the third place, it was a most partial tax, and especially burthen some to those who lived on the sea coast, and on those parts of the country which were farthest from the coal districts, and where coals, independently of the tax, must be very dear. The tax was, besides, most enormous in its amount, as compared with the price of the article at the mouth of the pit. It increased the price three-fold, and possessed all the evil qualities of the worst tax without any redeeming virtues. He was himself a coal-proprietor, but he thought the subject was, on every account, one which loudly called for attention. Petition referred to the Coal Committee above stairs.

IRISH POOR LAWS.
Earl Darnleyrose, according to notice, to call the attention of their Lordships, as he had frequently done before, to the most important subject of the adoption of a system of Poor-laws in Ireland. The poor in England, it was well known, were entitled to relief, and he would certainly recommend that some law should be adopted to afford a compulsory relief to the sick, the aged, and the infirm in Ireland. He saw that his noble friend (the Earl of Limerick) on the other side was already prepared to take the alarm, and to give his decided opposition to any project of the kind, as he had done before, when he took occasion to call the attention of their Lordships to this subject. He must admit, that on that occasion, his proposition was not particularly well received. But since that time, a considerable change had taken place in public opinion with respect to the Poor-laws; and political economists in England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as others, had come over to his opinion. He was far, however, from meaning to advocate the introduction into Ireland of the same system of Poor-laws as prevailed in England; but when he could prove, as he had offered to do on a former occasion, that people in Ireland had died of want in the streets and highways, it was high, time to adopt some method of compulsory relief for the aged, the sick, and the helpless. How far the compulsory relief should go, he was not then prepared to say. It might, perhaps, be asked, why he did not move for a Committee of In-

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quiry on the subject, as had been done in the House of Commons. But he could add but little information to what their Lordships already had on the subject, and particularly those who represented the Peerage of Ireland. These representatives were much more able to afford information to their Lordships than he was. What he was most anxious for was, to learn whether the noble Duke at the head of the Administration had had lime to turn his attention to this most important subject; and whether any measures were in contemplation to be brought forward during the present Session for the relief of the Irish poor? He did not think it expedient at present to move for a committee; but in case the Committee of the House of Commons should not bring forward the requisite information on the subject, he should feel himself at liberty, at any time, to move for a committee of that House, or take such other steps as he might think likely to further his object. At present, many noble Lords who would be the most useful members of such a committee were employed on other committees, and, in the meantime, he should content himself with asking, if the noble Duke would state what measures the Ministry had in view for the relief of the Irish poor.
The Duke of Wellington, in compliance with the desire of the noble Earl, stated that the Ministers had it not in contemplation to introduce at present anything like a general system of Poor-laws into Ireland. But at the same time he had to state to their Lordships that the state of Ireland had engaged the particular attention of his Majesty's Government, and several measures were in contemplation, which either directly or indirectly had for their object, and he trusted would have the effect, of affording relief to the aged and infirm, and the sick, and of giving work to the able-bodied poor. In the first place, there was a measure for the relief of the labouring poor, by having them employed by the Grand Juries. Again, there was a measure for the care of natural children, although that was one which would require a great deal of revision and caution before it was passed into a law. Another measure went to provide the City of Dublin with the means of creating an hospital for the distressed, in the same manner as means were provided for that object in the counties in Ireland, by the
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58th of the late King. The state of Ireland most certainly required the most attentive consideration of his Majesty's Ministers, and of Parliament, and he hoped the subject would meet with that attention which its importance deserved.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that as his noble friend opposite had not made any motion, nor proposed any specific measure, he would not at present waste their Lordships' time by entering at length into the discussion. His noble friend had alluded to the information which the Representatives of the Irish Peerage might give the House on this subject. As for himself, labouring as he was under severe indisposition, he could not pretend to give their Lordships much information, but any that he could give would not be in favour of the establishment of the Poor-laws in Ireland. His noble friend had truly stated that he had started the subject some years ago in this House, on which occasion he was supported by the petition of one man, who, having nothing else to do, thought proper to turn his attention to the state of Ireland; and he recollected that the petition was received with a loud laugh. But now his noble friend said, that the political economists and others had come over to his opinion. This was owing to the march of intellect, he supposed; but neither by march of intellect, nor by political economists, nor by any other influence, would he be persuaded to support any wild schemes of innovation. There were too many of them afloat already; and whether the line of conduct which he should feel it his duty to pursue should be palateable or unpalateable, he would oppose them. If his noble friend had proposed to appoint a committee, he should certainly have opposed the motion; for if that course were adopted, it would excite undue expectations on the one hand, and great alarm on the other. It would be a most alarming step to the gentlemen of landed property in Ireland. Their Lordships had only to look at the effects of the Poor-laws in some parts of England to form some idea of what would be the consequences of the system in Ireland. He particularly alluded to the county of Buckingham, where the Poor-rates had reached to the exorbitant height of 20s. in the pound, and where the system was most oppressive to the property of the place, without affording adequate relief to the indigent and

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the helpless. Such was the effect in England, where the system had been tried, and where eight millions of taxation were expended on it. His noble friend would, no doubt, limit the relief, according to the Act of Elizabeth, to the lame, the blind, and the impotent, but the evils which had been engrafted on that statute in England should make their Lordships cautious how they extended its principle to Ireland. That country was at present fast advancing in agriculture and trade, and in the accumulation of capital; but if the system of the Poor-laws was introduced there, every thing would tumble down, and leave all on the same hopeless level of poverty.
The Earl of Malmesburywas desirous to say a few words on the subject, which he considered as one of considerable importance. His noble friend near him (the Earl of Limerick) had said, that the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry would have been attended with mischievous effects, by exciting unreasonable expectations on one hand, and creating great alarm on the other. But if so, the mischief was already done; for the appointment of the committee by the other House would have the same effect. He really thought that his noble friend should have moved for a committee. He did not think that it was always the best way for their Lordships to take their information from the other House, and sometimes the information could not be had in time. For instance, when the New Police measure came before the House—a most important measure, even in a Constitutional point of view, but a good one as it had turned out—he had moved that a message should be sent to the Commons to desire that they would send up the evidence taken on the subject before their Committee, but it did not come till the second reading of the Bill. His noble friend had said that there were other committees, particularly the East-India Committee, now sitting, which occupied the attention of many of their Lordships. But there were surely sufficient numbers among their Lordships for a Committee on this subject also. And if it should be desirable that those who sat on the East-India Committee should sit on this Committee also, why should they not sit on alternate days. He had no doubt but the Members of the Committee in the other House would do their duty, but at the same time
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he would recommend a committee of this House also; and it ought to be remembered, that their Lordships had the great advantage of examining on oath. There was one point which had not yet been touched upon, and that was the great expense in several parts of England of passing Irishmen to the coast, and sending them to their own country. There was one county in the West of England in which thousands of Irishmen were passed in this manner. The expenses of this mode of passing English paupers were repaid by their places of settlement, but there was no fund for repayment in Ireland; and yet there was no reason why the Irish landlords should not reciprocally pay that expense as well as the English landlords. That was a point which was well deserving of investigation. He did not mean to say that the Poor-laws should be established in the same shape as they were established in England, particularly as to the mode of the appointments, and undue assessments. But the Poor-law system, abstractedly considered, was a good one. It was necessary that there should be some mode of providing relief for the aged, the sick, and the helpless. No country could be called a civilized one which had not some such institution. But the vice of the system in England was in its administration. The thing itself was good; it was the abuse which was bad. He hoped a committee would be appointed; and that the East-India committee might sit on alternate days, as had been done by the Lunatic and Wool Committees.
The Earl of Limericksaid, he would tell the noble Earl why the committee appointed by the other House would not give rise to the mischief's which he apprehended from the appointment of a committee of their Lordships on the same subject, if it took place at the suggestion of the noble Earl. The committee of the other House was moved for by a near relative of his, whose views on this subject were too well known, and too clearly stated, to be misunderstood, or to cause apprehension. As to the advantage of examining upon oath, on such a subject, he really did not see it, because an opinion could not be increased in value by the sanction of an oath. It might prove the sincerity, but could not prove the correctness, of the opinion. For instance, in the case of Irish vagrants, and the importation of black cattle, both of which had been complained of as hard-

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ships, one person had proposed that gaols should be built to confine the vagrants in, and another had proposed that a law should be passed prohibiting the importation of Irish vagrants and Irish bulls. (This ingenious person meant cattle of course, and not those slips of the tongue which were peculiar to Ireland, and known by the appellation of "bulls.") Now would such recommendations as these have been at all wiser, if they had been made on oath?
The Earl of Malmesburydid not mean to flatter the wit of his noble friend, but certainly passing these Irish travelling gentlemen was a heavy expense, and the Irish landlords should defray it.
The Duke of Buckinghamsaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory than what had fallen from the noble Duke (Wellington) on this subject. He was glad that the laws relative to grand-juries in Ireland were to be amended; for he would venture to say, that under the present system, sources of more iniquitous jobs than the means of employing the poor by the grand-juries were no where to be met with. With respect to the introduction of the English system of Poor-laws in Ireland, he wished to express no opinion; but it seemed as if some change were necessary. Whenever a noble Lord or hon. Gentleman thought he had discovered a grievance in the administration of the Poor-laws, he immediately proposed to introduce a new law to be added to the heap of regulations already in existence, which was but too large and complicated without further additions. No necessity whatever had been made out for an inquiry before a committee of their Lordships' House, or for a new law on the subject. He spoke this of the Poor-laws generally. In the county with which he was more intimately connected, there were many defects in the operation of the Poor-laws, and much pressure was occasioned by them, principally owing to a mistaken administration of the present law. By recurring to the original principles of the law of Elizabeth, Poor-rates might be made, not the reward of idleness, but the safe-guard of illness, age, and infancy. We should not then be aiding those who preferred doing nothing, and receiving a small pittance from the parish, to working in order to obtain the full wages of labour, which it was once the pride of the people of this country to do.
The Earl of Wicklowagreed with his noble relative as to the general inexpediency of appointing a committee on this subject, but there were reasons which induced him to think a committee ought to be appointed. One of these was, that a committee was already formed in the House of Commons; but whether the House granted a committee or not, he trusted, that if any measure should be proposed to Parliament, as the result of the labours of the committee in the House of Commons, their Lordships would meet it with a fair, a deliberate, and unprejudiced consideration. He wished especially that some measure should be adopted to remove from the mind of the English agriculturalist the belief that the introduction of a system of Poor-laws into Ireland would prevent the immigration of the labourers from that country to this. He doubted much whether that immigration was an evil; but even if it were so, it was, like many other evils now the subject of complaint, much exaggerated. Considering the period at which Irish labourers came into this country, he did not think the fanners would be much obliged to Parliament for putting an end to their immigration, which occasioned a beneficial competition for labour at a time when labour was most in demand; and, above all, that their Lordships, as landlords, would not be inclined to put an end to the system. Supposing, however, that the system was an evil, he would ask whether the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland was likely to prevent these immigrations? He must say that he was far from anticipating that such would be the result. He had not heard any one but the noble Duke who sat near him even suggest the notion of transplanting into that country the abused and vicious system of the Poor-laws of England.
The Duke of Buckinghamassured the noble Earl, he had not recommended any such thing; for he had not yet made up his mind on the subject.
The Earl of Wicklowobserved, that to attempt such a measure would be like attempting to transplant the forest of Hampshire into the rocks, bogs, and wilds of Connemara. There was another objection to the system of the Poor-laws. They tended to seal up the sources of private benevolence, and he was sure that in that respect they would be mischievous in their effects in Ireland. Such was now the

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charitable feeling of the people of Ireland, even among the lower orders, that from their doors the mendicant was never turned away — whether he were young or old, able-bodied or infirm, he was never repulsed; but always found something, even in the lowliest cot, to soothe and minister to his wants. In his opinion, the effect of the introduction of the Poor-laws would be to damp that feeling. At the same time he must confess that he wished some measures could be adopted to provide relief for the aged, the blind, and the infirm; for he thought it a disgrace to any civilized country to leave them without the means of relief; and with that feeling he was anxious that some measure should be adopted to entitle them to support and assistance.
The Marquis of Salisburyobserved, that there would be no possibility of recurring to the system of Elizabeth, as the noble Duke (Buckingham) desired, without a parliamentary inquiry, for many parts of the law, as it might be supposed to have existed at that period, were exceedingly vague and undefined. If the House agreed to the appointment of a committee to investigate the state of the Poor-laws in this country, we might have an opportunity of recurring to the sound system of relieving the poor who deserved relief, instead of empowering every overseer who pleased, to pay a portion of the wages of labour out of the Poor-rates. This practice prevailed in Dorsetshire. He could not agree with those noble Lords who thought that the immigrations of Irish labourers were not a grievance; he thought them a very great grievance. These people came over and worked at very low wages, and in a great measure took the bread out of the mouths of the English labourers, and that at a time when the English labourers would otherwise be able to make enough money to save themselves during the worst parts of the year, from applying for parochial relief. At such times these Irish labourers came over, subsisted for a few weeks before the busy time came on, either by beggary or petty robbery, and afterwards threw themselves on the parish to be passed back again to Ireland. Was it fit that so many persons should regularly leave their own country, to come here on foraging expeditions? He thought not, and that the fact that they did so was a sufficient ground for the House to interfere on the subject. He
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would only add, that if Poor-laws were to be established in Ireland, they ought to be more guarded as to their administration than they were here.
The Earl of Limerickcould not sit quietly in his place and listen to the imputations thrown out by the noble Marquis upon the conduct of the Irish labourers who visited this country. What! was it owing to the hoards of Cossacks—the invasion of savages, who robbed, plundered, begged, and carried away, truly, the wages which ought to be devoted to the support of English labourers, that we had this stir made about providing for the Irish poor? This was the boasted philanthropy and regard which noble Peers expressed for the aged, the impotent, the sick and blind. It was a selfish feeling then that was at the bottom of all this outcry about humanity and religion: they wanted to deprive their own people, who were united to them by the closest ties, who bled and died for them, of common international advantages. Good God! what, were the men who defended the country with their blood, and expended their labour in its cultivation, to be denied the privilege of bringing that labour to the best market, at the time when they could dispose of it to the greatest advantage? When the Irish labourers came to this country to work, they were to be branded as beggars, plunderers, and vagabonds! He denied the statement in toto, and could not sit quietly under the imputation.
The Marquis of Salisburydid not mean to offend the noble Earl, or the people of Ireland, but he supposed the noble Earl would hardly take on himself to answer for the honesty of every Irish labourer that came over to this country; and the Quarter Sessions attested the fact, that just about the time of their immigrations, the numbers of petty robberies were considerably increased.
The Marquis of Clanricardethought, no case had been made out for a committee with reference to Ireland, though there were certainly strong grounds for a committee with reference to England, both as to the Poor-laws themselves, and their administration. He trusted our abominable system would never be introduced into Ireland, where, in fact, the machinery of that system would not work; but if it could, the effect must be most injurious to the country. He wished, in common

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with the noble Earl who opened the debate, for a more effectual mode of relieving the sick, impotent, and aged in Ireland, by the extension of the system of hospitals or infirmaries, &c.: but when we talked of the Poor-laws, all the argument went on the supposition that Irish labourers would be prevented from coming over to England, by their introduction into that country. But the immigrations of Irish labourers could not be prevented by introducing Poor-laws in Ireland; and it would be most unjust to try to prevent them; for if the rich Irish were compelled to come here as buyers of labour, the poor Irish ought to be allowed to come here also as sellers of labour. Besides, he had always heard that Poor-laws had a tendency to lower the rate of wages; and if so, the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland would reduce the rate of wages still lower than they now were, and would make the immigrations greater than ever.
Earl Stanhopecould not lose that opportunity of protesting against the opinions now expressed, particularly by the noble Duke (Buckingham), as to the abuses of the administration of the Poor-laws. The real cause of the present high amount of Poor-rates was not the abuses of their administration, but the want of employment for the poor, occasioned by our mistaken policy. The noble Duke ought to be better acquainted with his own county, where this was the obvious cause of the sufferings of the poor. It was impossible that, any mal-administration of the Poor-rates should have increased them 20s. or 30 s. an acre, or in some cases, raised them to an amount that was equivalent to a total confiscation of the land. He thought the cause of this distress imperiously called for an inquiry, and he rejoiced that a noble Duke (Richmond) intended to call their Lordships', attention to it on Thursday. With respect to the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland, he did not think it would prevent the immigration of Irish labourers here. The best way to cure the evils of that country was to get rid of a body of men who were the real causes of the pauperism of that country— he meant the middle-men of Ireland.
Earl Darnleysaid, that however they might differ among themselves as to the means, the object of all was to provide relief for the aged, and the infirm, and the needy part of the population of Ireland.
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After the explanation of the noble Duke opposite, and with the knowledge that the subject was in excellent hands, in the Committee of the House of Commons, he should not, at present, press the subject further en their Lordships' attention. On principle, there could be no question that Poor-laws ought to be introduced into Ireland, the only differences were as to the effects that would be produced. He should take the occasion presented by the motion of the noble Duke on Thursday to call the attention of the House again to this subject.
The Duke of Buckingham, in reply to the charge of giving an opinion upon a subject of which he had been stated to be perfectly ignorant, and in answer to the accusation of not being acquainted with the condition of the county which his Majesty had intrusted to his care, declared, that all his experience proved—and he had studied the subject with some attention—that the pressure of the Poor-rates in his county was caused by the overseers applying them in part payment of the wages of labour. In this opinion he was supported by the magistrates of the county, and he assured the noble Earl, that he had not expressed an opinion without having made himself master of the subject.
Earl Stanhopeadmitted, that the maladministration of the Poor-laws might have some effect in producing the evils complained of; but contended, that the policy lately adopted had still more powerful effects. To say that English labourers considered the Poor-rates as a means of escaping from work, was a libel on one of the most useful classes of men in the country.

COUKT OF CHANCERY.
The Lord Chancellorgave notice, that on Monday next he should submit a Motion to their Lordships upon the business of the Court of Chancery, and that he should take that opportunity of explaining the measures now in progress, relative to the amendment of the general administration of the laws of the country.