Lords Sitting of 4 March 1830

MINUTES.
The royal assent was given by commission to the Consolidated Fund Bill, and the Clerks of the Peace Balances Bill.—Returns were laid on the table relative to the Long Annuities, the Savings Banks, and the Affairs of India.

COMMITTEE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS.
Earl Bathurstmoved, that the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the East India Affairs, do, from time to time, report their proceedings to the House.—Ordered.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he felt very great satisfaction at the motion which had just been made by the noble Earl. He was about to present three or four petitions on the subject of the East-India Company's Charter, the prayer of which was similar to the prayer of other petitions which he had already presented with reference to that question. He begged leave to take that opportunity of stating, that the Representatives of various bodies of individuals, in different parts of the country, who were sent to town to watch over the interests of many who were anxiously awaiting the result of this inquiry, had expressed to him, and, he believed, to other noble Lords, a wish to be made acquainted with the proceedings before the Committee, in such manner as might seem most proper to their Lordships, in order that they might be enabled to form an opinion on the evidence (the subject being one in which they felt a deep and important interest), and to judge how far it would be expedient for them to bring forward other evidence relating to this question. He felt, whatever the rules of their Lordships' House might be upon this point, that it was highly necessary and proper for those persons to be made fully acquainted with the proceedings of the Committee, and the subjects to which they directed their inquiry. Many of them understood the question perfectly well; and they possessed information which probably was not before the Committee, and which they were anxious to tender to their Lordships. He confessed that he was one of those who wished that course to be taken, although he was aware that some difficulties might arise in effecting the object to which he alluded, in consequence of the formation of their Lordships' Committees. He gave his full concurrence to any measure which was likely to give to those persons the satisfaction they desired; and therefore he heard with much pleasure the motion of the noble Lord, the President of the Council, who presided over the Committee. That motion arose out of a Resolution which the Committee had agreed to on that day, and which empowered it, from time to
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time, to order the publication of the evidence. He hoped that the proceedings would be reported as frequently as possible, by which course the parties would be put in possession of those facilities which they anxiously wished to attain: and they would thus have an opportunity, when they saw the proceedings, of suggesting whether it would be necessary to adduce other evidence. Hoping that their object would be fully attained, he would trouble their Lordships no further, but move "that the Petitions be brought up."
The Petitions were then read. They were from the merchants, bankers, manufacturers, and inhabitants of Glasgow, and Blackburne, and from the Dock Company of Hull, and prayed that the East India Company's Charter might not be renewed.

DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.
The Duke of Graftonpresented a Petition from the owners and occupiers of land in the county of Suffolk. His Grace observed, that the object of the petition was to call their Lordships' serious attention to the distressed state of the Agricultural interest, and particularly to the melancholy situation in which the class of labourers was placed. The Petitioners recommended, and in their recommendation he cordially agreed, the most strict and rigid economy; and they prayed for a remission of those taxes which bore most immediately on the labouring classes. Although it was evident that great and extensive distress was felt throughout the country, yet he was not one of those who despaired of seeing that distress alleviated. In the last Session their Lordships were occupied with a question which absorbed all others, and prevented them from looking narrowly into the state of the country; but he hoped that in the present Session, some great and well-digested measure would be introduced—that some extensive and effectual remedy would be devised—for the relief of the labouring population. The interests of the country, and, he might add, the interests of humanity, peremptorily required a measure of that nature.
The Earl of Stamfordbore testimony to the fact, that very great distress existed throughout the country, not only in the agricultural, but in the manufacturing districts. In consequence of the act of the legislature by which the currency was

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altered, men who were formerly in respectable circumstances were reduced to comparative poverty: their stock was sold to pay rates and taxes, and in numerous parishes they were reduced even to the necessity of mending the roads. Many of the labourers were obliged to take refuge in the workhouse, while others were passing their time in idleness, engendering feelings of insubordination and disaffection. If the tradesmen were asked how business was going on, their uniform answer was, that it was never so bad. The timber merchant would tell them that the same timber which brought 6s. a foot in 1814 was now almost unsaleable at 3s. a foot; and the butcher complained that he had not one-half the demand for meat which he could boast of a few years ago. He did not make these observations for the purpose of casting censure on his Majesty's Government, but he felt it right to say thus much in support of the statements contained in the petition.
Lord Calthorpesaid, that the privation experienced by the people at the present moment was, he believed, universal, scarcely any part of the empire was free from it. Most certainly the pressure was general, and was felt most severely. While, however, he admitted the existence of distress, he must be allowed to observe that, in different places, it differed extremely in degree. It appeared to him, however, that the existence of such a degree of privation as every man knew to prevail throughout England, called urgently for very strong measures at the hands of Parliament, and of his Majesty's Ministers, to meet the exigency of the time. It was the imperative duty of Ministers to do their utmost to diminish those burthens which bore so heavily on the country. He, for one, did not withhold from Ministers that credit which was due to them, for a sincere and honest anxiety to reduce the existing taxes. But he certainly must say, that if the work of retrenchment and the improvement of the country were not speedily undertaken,—if his Majesty's Ministers did not afford the utmost facilities for a full and ample inquiry into the degree and extent to which that retrenchment might safely be effected, and if at the same time the resources of the empire were not permanently enlarged and ameliorated by positive remedies,—the people would have much reason to complain. More than one remedy had been urged
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upon the House, and particularly by a noble Viscount (Goderich), who stated his views on the subject a few evenings since. Many of the measures adverted to by him might be carried into effect with the greatest advantage. The taxation, on which the noble Viscount particularly touched, and which pressed with extreme severity on the industry of the country, might, he conceived, be diminished without any loss to the Revenue, but, on the contrary, with considerable benefit to it.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, there was no objection whatever, on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, to afford every information in their power, with respect to the expenditure of the country. It could not certainly have escaped the notice of noble Lords, that the estimate of the expense of the country had been very considerably diminished in the present Session of Parliament, in comparison with that of the last and the preceding Session, considering at the same time what reductions had been made in those Sessions on the estimate of former Sessions. He could safely say that he had done every thing in his power, and all the other Ministers of his Majesty had done every thing in their power, to reduce the expense of the country to the smallest possible amount: There was no expense incurred that was not expressly necessary to maintain the honour of the country, and to uphold its interests, extended as they were to every quarter of the world. It was perfectly true that this island was but a small portion of the globe, yet its interests were extended all over the world, and must be maintained, though at a great expense. The expense necessary for the maintenance of the honour and interests of this country was at present only 12,000,000 l. of money; for there had been a decrease, in the last three Sessions of Parliament, of not less than 2,000,000 l. on this part of the expenditure; and their Lordships must know that the other portions of the expenditure, such as the payments for half-pay and for the interest of the national debt, could not be touched at all. Having said this, he must claim for himself and his colleagues credit for an anxious desire to do every thing in their power to diminish the expenditure. With respect to the amount of expense incurred on account of the Colonies, he believed that the number of troops in the old colonies, and places occupied by a military

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force previously to 1792, was now reduced lower than it was in that year. This country had., however, in the course of the last war, made very considerable conquests, and those conquests required for their maintenance large bodies of men, and consequently created a great additional expense. They required for their protection, very nearly as many troops as the old colonies. In some parts of the world England had very important ones now, which formerly were not in her possession, to maintain which a certain force was obliged to be kept up. Before the war we were not masters of the Cape of Good Hope, of the Mauritius, nor of Ceylon. In the Mediterranean we had formerly no station, except Gibraltar, which was not the case now. It was obvious, that all the colonies which we had acquired demanded a large force for their protection. These things considered, it appeared to him that the military establishment had been reduced as far as it could be reduced, a proper regard being had to the interests of the empire. With respect to the naval establishment, it was a little higher than it usually was in time of peace; but the necessity which had arisen for employing fleets in different parts of the world, where war was still, or had been very lately, carried on, necessarily called for a greater number of men, and, consequently, created a greater expense than would have been required under ordinary circumstances. The question then was, whether it were possible to do without those stations? He thought it was not; and therefore the matter came to this—that we must maintain them; and Ministers were anxious to do so at the lowest possible expense.
Lord Calthorpeadmitted, that it was quite clear, that the retention of those colonies and stations must inevitably be attended with a certain expense; but still he was by no means prepared to say that greater reductions might not be effected.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, there was one point which had not been alluded to when mention was made of our foreign possessions, to which he would call their Lordships' attention: it was a very important point, for the station which he was about to notice had cost this country infinite sums of money, as well as the lives of our best soldiers and seamen. He believed that the subject was somewhat unpopular, but still he thought it right to express his
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opinion on it. He adverted to the settlement of Sierra Leone, which was still kept up, on the coast of Africa, for the purpose of checking and controlling the slave-trade. Now he wondered, when he heard economy so much spoken of, that no notice was taken of that settlement. He believed he might say, that in the way of money, it was a heavy expense to this country; but that circumstance was not one-half so much to be regretted, as the thousands and tens of thousands of lives which it cost the country. Our troops became the victims to that pestiferous climate, and our brave seamen perished on its equally pestiferous coast; for he believed that it made no difference whether the men were on shore or were employed on the coast: in either case, the result was equally fatal. In his opinion, very considerable savings might be made in the colonies. He thought that the expense which was incurred on account of them might be materially diminished. There was one of them, New South Wales, which was discovered between 1780 and 1790; and he found that at the present time the mother country was put to the expense of keeping two regiments of infantry there, besides a civil establishment. Whether that establishment was on an extravagant scale or not, he could not say; but certainly the colony ought to bear some portion of the expense. The subject to which he had first pointed their Lordships' notice was a very important one, whether it were viewed with an eye to economy, or to the feelings of humanity. Ministers ought to take into their serious consideration, whether they would persevere in the system so long persisted in,—whether they would continue the attempts made (from the most laudable motives he believed, but with very little effect) to do away with the slave-trade by preserving the settlement of Sierra Leone. They must know the dreadful loss of human life which was sustained there, and they must be equally aware of the waste of treasure which that settlement had occasioned. He begged pardon for detaining the House so long; but he thought this was a subject which deserved consideration. With respect to the distress of the country, he really did not see any material advantage that was likely to be derived from the remedies pointed out in some places. Many causes might be assigned for that distress, but he would allude only to one,—he meant

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the change in the currency. If the subject were made matter of inquiry, he thought it would be found practicable to resort to a paper currency, on a certain and defined principle, by which the country would be benefitted. There was a paper currency in Scotland, and why might not we assimilate our system to the system which prevailed in that prosperous country? The noble Lords who moved and seconded the Address on the first night of the Session, who were connected with Scotland, and knew its condition well, stated that there was no distress in that country, yet they had that small paper currency there of which we had deprived ourselves. That might, he thought, be considered as one cause of the distress. But there was another, and that a very powerful cause; he alluded to the state of the Poor-laws. An enormous tax was levied in that shape, and he wished to direct their Lordships' attention to it. He would first notice the mode of its assessment; and, secondly, the manner of its appropriation. In one way or other 8,000,000 l. was collected under this head, and it was grossly misapplied. It was called poor-rates, but it was applied to fifty other purposes. Was it to be believed that no moans existed by which it could be mitigated, and made to fall more equally? Various were the purposes to which this tax was diverted,—building bridges, making roads, &c. Was it fair, he would ask, to compel him to pay for building a bridge, over which a London Alderman might walk gratis, when at the same time he was obliged to pay a tax levied on coal, for the erection of London Bridge? This money was also applied to pay the expense incurred for the conviction of offenders. Very few of their Lordships, he believed, knew the amount of the sums paid in this way. He contended, that expenses incurred for the conviction of offenders ought to be paid out of the public purse. He instanced these things, to show how necessary it would be, to go into an inquiry on this subject. More good would result from such an inquiry than would be derived from any general inquiry, which never reached any specific object.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, no one could doubt but that his Majesty's Ministers intended to make some reduction; and it must be admitted that some useful reductions had been made in preceding years; at the same time it must occur to
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their Lordships, that however favourable might be the disposition of any Government towards retrenchment, it was impossible to say what should be done until the subject was fully investigated. As a proof of this, he would instance the fact, that it had been confidently stated by former Governments, and he had no doubt it was their sincere belief, that the reduction of expenditure had been carried to the utmost extent to which it could safely be carried. But afterwards, stimulated by the attention which Parliament paid to the subject, they found that farther retrenchments might be made with perfect safety to the interests of the country; therefore, he meant not to throw any imputation on the noble Duke opposite, when he stated that he could not assume it as a decided fact, that there might not hereafter, or even in the course of the present Session of Parliament, arise an opportunity for making an effectual and useful reduction in the expenditure of the country, although the noble Duke did not at present contemplate such an event. Knowing, however, as he did, that much of the future relief of the country depended on the hope of a very considerable reduction of expenditure, to that hope he would cling even to the last day of the Session. The noble Duke had alluded to the colonial expenditure. Now, there were two views connected with that subject. The one was that which the noble Duke had taken,—that of considering the minimum of military defence and civil establishment, by which those colonies might be kept in security and connexion with the mother country: the second was, after having ascertained to what that minimum of expenditure might be brought, to consider by what means the colonies could be induced to assist themselves and relieve the mother country from a portion of the burthen. That was, he thought, one of the greatest points of policy that could be looked to; for, numerous as our colonies were, and reaching, as the noble Duke had truly said, to every quarter of the globe, they must be divided into two classes; one consisting of purely military stations, the expense of which must inevitably be thrown on the mother country, and the other composed of colonial dependencies connected with the trade and commerce of the mother country, and possessing a wealthy population. Now, in proportion as there was extended to the latter the advantage of a good Government and

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a considerable share in the administration of that Government, he thought those colonies ought to give every facility for defraying a part of the expenditure connected with them. If this country afforded them naval defence, as no doubt it always would, he thought they ought to be made to defray the whole of the military expense. Let their Lordships look to Canada: the people there were now enjoying a government, somewhat different indeed from what it was, but one under which they lived happily, and which seemed to meet the feelings and wishes of the whole population. In his opinion, such being the case, that colony ought to defray the greater part, if not the whole amount of the expense incurred for a military force.
The Petition was then read, and laid on the Table.
The Duke of Richmondpresented a Petition from the town of Lowth, in Lincolnshire, complaining of distress. He expressed a hope that the noble Lords whose sentiments he had listened to that evening, would support the motion which he intend to submit shortly.

TIMBER.
Earl Darnley, in rising to move for a return of all Contracts made for Timber for the use of his Majesty's Dock-yards, since January 1st. 1810,stated that his object in moving for the Return was, to put at rest those differences of opinion relative to the price of Timber which had been lately stated in that House. He wished also to make the Admiralty aware of the necessity of putting a stop to the practice of laying in such a vast stock of Timber as was piled up in the Dock-yards. Large sums were expended every year for the purchase of Timber, which night, he thought, be saved He by no means wished to cripple the efficiency of the Navy, for he believed that to be essential to the national safety—he wished to make no reduction in the number of seamen employed, for that part of the service could not be too effective: he thought, indeed, that the coast blockade might be dispensed with, but he objected to keeping up such an immense dead stock in our Dock-yards, which perhaps might never be wanted, and was purchased apparently only to decay. When the Returns, for which he should move, were laid before their Lordships, they would be as sensible of this as he was. The vote, he
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believed, for the purchase of Timber and other Stores for the next year, was not less than 784,000 l.,* which seemed to him so enormous that some reduction ought to be made in it. He was willing to confide in his Majesty's Government, but he earnestly pressed it on the noble Duke (Wellington), or on the noble Viscount (Melville) to consider of the propriety of curtailing this enormous branch of expenditure. Before he made the Motion he would observe, that much of this Timber, he believed, came from Sierra-Leone, his opinion concerning which colony was precisely the same as that of his noble friend who had addressed their Lordships that evening. His Lordship concluded by moving for, "an Account of all the Timber contracted for the use of his Majesty's Dock-yards since January 1st, 1810, specifying the quantity and quality of the Timber supplied under each contract, the country where the Timber was grown, the price per load (except the price of contracts now in existence) and the amount of Duty paid on Timber of foreign growth."
Viscount Melvillesaid, he did not rise to oppose the Motion, but only to assert for himself, that he had a strong desire to make every possible reduction; at the same time he was bound to inform their Lordships, that he did not think a diminution of the supply of the materials of shipbuilding was consistent with the national safety. As long ago as the time of Lord Sandwich, a regulation was made to keep in the Dock-yards three years' supply of Timber, that, in case of any sudden emergency, seasoned Timber might be obtained. The regulation, however, was not carried fully into effect, till the very last year of the late war. He would not enter into details; he would only assure his noble friend, that much less Timber was made use of than formerly, and his Majesty's Government was anxious to reduce the expenditure to the lowest possible scale.—The Returns were ordered.

FOREIGN CORN.
The Earl of Malmesburyrose, to move for some Returns, to which, he said, he understood his Majesty's
* This sum includes the expense of the repairs of docks, wharfs, and buildings; and the price of old Stores 104,000 l. must be deducted to get at the sum voted by the House of Commons; there remains 680,000 l. as the sum voted for Timber and other Stores in one year.—See Navy Estimates, for 1830, page 14.

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Ministers would make no objection. The noble Earl accordingly moved for "a Return of the quantity of Wheat entered for home-consumption, under the Act of 9 Geo. 4th, cap. 60, in each week since the passing of the Act, with the amount of; duty received thereon; distinguishing the average price, and the rates of duty charged; also a Return of the aggregate average price of Wheat, from the first week of: October, 1828, to the second week in February, 1829; and also the same Return from the first week in October, 1829, to the second week in February, 1830." His wish was, to ascertain the quantity of Wheat entered weekly for home-consumption, since the passing of the Act alluded to in July, 1828. In seventeen months from that time, no less than 2,200,000 quarters of Wheat had been imported into this country, and he had no doubt but these large importations joined with the still greater importations of Wool, had contributed materially to cause the agricultural distress. By the last Return their Lordships would see, that the farmer had not been receiving, by 4s. per quarter, that price which the legislature deemed necessary as a remunerating price.—The Returns were ordered.