Lords Sitting of 20 December 1830

MINUTES.
The Colonial Acts Validity Bill was read a third time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord NAPIER, various information from the Clerks of Supply, and the Sheriffs' Clerks (Scotland), relative to the Freeholders of Scotland.
Petitions presented. For the abolition of Negro Slavery, by the Earl of CARNARVON, from Aberystwith and Carnarvon: —By Earl ROSSLYN, from Marlborough, Loughborough, and other places:—By the Earl of CARLISLE, from a Parish in Yorkshire:—By Earl STANHOPE, from Woburn, Marlborough, East Wickham:—By the Duke of CUMBERLAND, from a Parish in the County of Durham: —By Lord NAPIER, from Longford. By the Earl of CARLISLE, from certain Unitarians of Cork, praying exemption from serving the office of Churchwarden. By Earl STANHOPE, from Montague Burgoyne, Esq., for encouragement to Cultivate Waste Lands.

DESIRE FOR REFORM IN SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Roseberypresented a Petition from the Magistracy and Town Council of Linlithgow, for Reform. He could not resist that opportunity of stating to the House the conviction, which a residence in Scotland had impressed upon him—namely, that there could be no greater mistake than to suppose, that the people of that country did not feel a strong desire for an improvement in their representation. It might be true, that hitherto there had been no expression of public opinion on the subject of reform in Scotland, but the silence of the people arose from two circumstances—first, from an idea that the cause of reform was hopeless; and, secondly, from the conviction that, defective as was the representation of Scotland, the constitution of the English part of the House of Commons was such as to remedy a portion of the evil. But now that reform had been taken up by those best fitted to carry it through with success (his Majesty's Ministers), the number of petitions proceeding from Scotland proved that there was no indifference on the subject in that country. In fact the subject was taken up from one end of the country to the other. The petition prayed, not only for reform, but also for a reduction of taxation, particularly of the assessed taxes. The noble Lord presented a petition to the same effect from the in habitants of Linlithgow.
Lord Duncansupported the petition, and expressed his satisfaction at finding the statement which he had made on a; former evening, relative to the state of public feeling in Scotland on the subject of reform, now confirmed. He availed himself of this opportunity to say, that he did not state as he had been reported to have stated, that the member for Edinburgh was returned by three voters, but by thirty three.

EARL STANHOPE'S REPLY TO THE LORD CHANCELLOR.
Earl Stanhopein presenting; Petitions against Slavery, from Woburn, Marlborough, and East Wickham, observed, that, in common with every one of their Lordships, he entertained a strong abhorrence of slavery. At the same time; that he made this declaration, he frankly admitted, that he thought there were considerations connected with the question which seemed extremely difficult, and which required the utmost caution in dealing with them. With respect to the condition of the negroes, he was ready to concur in any measures calculated to ensure their good treatment, and wished above all things, that they should be exempted from corporal punishments. But he was surprised to see persons in England, who affected to pity the sufferings of the slaves, offering no remonstrance at the still greater cruelty inflicted at home on their countrymen. One of the petitions attributed the severe agricultural distress that; existed in this country to the vengeance of the Almighty it) consequence of our tolerance of slavery: perhaps it would have: been as wise to ascribe the distress to our having followed the recommendations of bad political advisers. The noble Earl, then proceeded to allude to the remarks made upon him by the Lord Chancellor on a former evening. He was prepared, to speak with perfect indifference, if not with contempt, of any idle and unfounded censure of his conduct or opinions, from: whatever quarter it might come. He denied altogether the pretensions of any; noble Lord, even of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, to dictate to him, or any Peer, how often he should speak, in what manner, or upon what subjects; he should speak, or even to offer any animadversions upon his conduct. He should have noticed the matter before, but that he was prevented from attending in his place by indisposition. If the noble
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and learned Lord did not intend as animadversion, but by way of friendly admonition, many of the remarks which he had made, he should only say, that the noble and learned Lord had taken a great deal of unnecessary trouble, and that the admonitions would receive no attention whatsoever. He considered the noble and learned Lord's remarks as being wholly uncalled for by the occasion. With the indulgence of the House, he should, whenever public duty seemed to require it of him, venture to deliver his sentiments freely, without asking permission of the noble and learned Lord, or of any other individual.

LUNATICS.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he proposed to move for a Return of considerable importance, viz. the number of Lunatics now under the care of the Lord Chancellor, with the date of the inquisition, the sums ordered for their maintenance, and an Estimate of the total value of their estates; and seeing a noble and learned Lord, who had given the matter a great deal of attention, having long presided with great advantage in the Court of Chancery, in his place, he felt anxious to state, in a few words, the reasons which induced him to move for the return. It was, doubtless, within the knowledge of their Lordships, that the number of persons labouring under mental disease, who were subjects of the care of the individual holding the Great Seal for the time being, was always very considerable: he might state the average number of lunatics under the protection of the Court of Chancery at 400. The returns which had been made out showed it. Those individuals had all more or less property, which was taken possession of by the Court, for the benefit of the lunatics, (should they recover), or their heirs, and managed by individuals, generally near relatives, called committees, under the control of the Court of Chancery. Out of the estates, according to the known practice of the Court, allowances were made for the support and care of the lunatics, who generally amounted, as he had before stated, to an average number of 400: the allowances also averaged a large amount, 136,000 l. a-year. Now, generally speaking, the Court of Chancery took care that those unfortunate persons thus submitted to its guardianship, should have the I benefit of all the kind and gentle treatment

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which it was possible to afford to individuals so circumstanced. He said, in the generality of cases the Court prescribed with great care, and, as far as it could, exercised a vigilant superintendence: but their Lordships would at once perceive the difficulty of the situation in which the Court was placed with respect to the delicate question of the possible recovery of the lunatic, who, it might be assumed, was frequently, but unavoidably, placed in the hands of persons who would, perhaps, be induced to regard their own interests more than those of their patient. The Court must delegate the care and custody of the lunatic to somebody; and the duty and emoluments of this individual ceasing with the recovery of the patient, it might be apprehended that in general he would not be very anxious for the occurrence of that event. The estate of the lunatic was, generally speaking, well watched; for first the party appointed by the committee usually had an interest in guarding it himself; and next, the Court could exercise a proper degree of control over him, and call him to account whenever it thought proper. But it was somewhat otherwise with respect to the care of the person of the lunatic, and in reference to his recovery. Here lay the difficulty. Previously to that stage there was none. For the utmost care, as their Lordships well knew, was taken, that no man should be found a lunatic without the amplest and most strict inquiry. There was, first, the protection afforded, by the individual holding the Great Seal not consenting even to the issue of a commission de lunatico inquirendo, till it was proved to be absolutely necessary. Then there was the inquisition itself, conducted with all the care and minute examination of a public trial; so that there was all manner of fence round the party, that he should not be rashly, or without absolute necessity, declared in competent to manage his affairs. But it was sometimes otherwise, when the person of the lunatic came to be placed under the care of others,—at least, it was not unreasonable to suppose that a difficulty might arise in this stage, and it would be well to guard against its occurrence. It was necessary that the lunatic should receive the kindest possible treatment, and that care should be taken to afford every chance to the patient at the moment when returning health and reason might manifest themselves. It had occurred to some of
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the noble Lords who had preceded him in the office which he then held, that a course might be adopted with the greatest benefit to the parties in question, and that without a day's or an hour's delay being interposed. The proportion of recoveries in cases of insanity had been matter of inquiry with his noble and learned predecessor, who received reports from all, or nearly all, the lunatic asylums in the country, in reply to circulars issued by him on the subject. The circulars were forwarded to a vast number of lunatic asylums, containing not less than 25,000 patients, and reports had been received in answer, so that there was a large number of persons afflicted with mental disease from which to obtain a pretty good average of the numbers cured. It was gratifying- to find that of those persons, from one in two and one-sixth, to one in two and a half were generally cured. But it was very different, of course, in cases such as he had been all along alluding to; and to apply that average in the case of Chancery lunatics would be assuming by much too great a proportion of recoveries. In the common cases from which the average had been deduced, were included all the cases of individuals sent into lunatic asylums on the first breaking out of mental disease, and never having sustained any previous attack of insanity; whereas the 400 Chancery lunatics (that was the average number) were generally persons who had been for Months and months ill before a Statute of Lunacy was thought of, and in such cases the disorder being- confirmed, there was less chance of recovery. If we were to say one in twenty for the recoveries of lunatics under the care of the Lord Chancellor, we should probably come nearer the mark than by assuming a higher average of cures. But that was no reason why the one-twentieth of the Chancery lunatics, or 20 out of the 400, should not have the best chance of recovery afforded them,—no reason why all should not be well treated—no reason why there should be, not only a certainty of their being thoroughly well cared for,—but a certainty of the recovered patient's being discharged at. the earliest possible hour after a cure was effected. It had been thought, that the establishment of a Board of medical men, consisting—say of two able physicians, accustomed to the treatment of mental disease, but not what was called "mad doctors" (he did not wish to be

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understood as casting any reflection upon those useful individuals who undertook the care of lunatic asylums).—It had been thought, that the selection of two eminent general practitioners, most qualified, nevertheless, with respect to the cases in question, that their appointment, with an allowance for moderate expenses, and power to institute, from time to time, inquiries into the cases of Chancery lunatics, would be extremely advantageous. The Board would investigate the treatment of the patients, and act as a check upon the medical men under whose control they were placed: first, see that the lunatics were well cared for; but, above all, watch the least glimmering of returning sanity, and see that the parties were not detained one day longer than was required. This was a subject which had engaged his noble and learned predecessor and himself, and he thought it must be admitted that it was one that deserved—he might say required —the attention of their Lordships. The only question, as it appeared to him, was, in what way the matter could be best arranged. He certainly should be prepared, as soon as the return for which he was about to move was before the House, to state a plan calculated to effect the object in view with the greatest possible economy to the estates of the lunatics, at the same time that it aimed at as much efficiency as practicable. The lowest charge on an estate might be about 10 s., and in no case would it exceed 2l. percent. The object of this charge would be, to superintend and watch most vigilantly, with reference to the treatment and recovery of the patient, and likewise to lay down rules which would prevent any abuse upon the part of those medical officers who might be appointed, if the plan which he proposed should receive the sanction of the House. He knew that it might be said to him, that it was the province of the Great Seal, of itself to make arrangements which it might deem sufficient for the entire, wholesome, and safe management, of persons in this unhappy condition; but he deemed it to be more expedient, wherever any doubt might exist as to the jurisdiction of the Court, in applying the revenues of one lunatic to the general purposes where all lunatics were concerned, to make the arrangement a legislative measure. He would take the opportunity of the noble and learned Lord (Eldon) being in his
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place, to entreat his Lordship, and the rest of their Lordships, not to disdain to turn their attention to the subject before the end of the Session. He should now move for a return of the number of lunatics under the care of the Lord Chancellor, with the dates of the longest and shortest time of confinement, with the sums allowed for their maintenance, and the actual amount of their estates.
The Earl of Eldonwas understood to say, that the noble Lord on the Woolsack had altogether proceeded on the mistake of supposing, that the Court of Chancery had the management and jurisdiction over lunatics. The subject was managed by a Special Commission from the Crown, generally issued, indeed, to the person holding the Great Seal; and, it happened, on account of the facilities which the Court of Chancery possessed for the management of property, that this jurisdiction could not be placed in better hands than in those of the Lord Chancellor. The jurisdiction over the persons of lunatics did not he with the Lord Chancellor by virtue of his office. He should not, however, offer any opposition, or make any objection to the further inquiry into the state of such unhappy persons. He was sorry, very sorry to say, that their numbers had greatly increased since he had taken the Seals, and he would take upon himself to say, that if his conduct were to be examined into with respect to his discharge of this part of his duty, it would be found to have been influenced solely by an anxious desire to benefit the parties labouring under such a state of affliction. He could assure the noble Lord upon the Woolsack, that he would give all the assistance he possibly could to the improvement of the situation of persons under the unhappy circumstances of lunacy, and no man would be more ready to promote the views of the noble and learned Lord than himself. The noble Lord on the Woolsack might command his time and attention to further his object; and he would say, that he was as ready to give his time for such a purpose as any man upon earth. It would, however, be necessary to proceed with the utmost caution in treating the subject, and it behoved the noble Lord upon the Woolsack to consider the point, whether it would not be better to select physicians who confined themselves to the treatment of one subject, as the most likely persons

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to be the best judges of the disease in question.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that there was a tendency to suppose, whether right or wrong, that all medical men who devoted themselves exclusively to cases of insanity, and who kept asylums, had a prejudice in favour of making people insane. What he meant was, that they were apt to imagine and see insanity where other people saw none. The proper course to take would be, to constitute the commission of three persons, one to be of one sort, and two of the other, or vice versâ.

PATENTS' CONTINUATION BILL.
Earl Greysaid, that in rising-to move the first reading of the Bill, he should very briefly state the reasons out of which it had arisen. About eight or nine days ago a letter was received from the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, stating, that no new commissions of the peace had been issued since the demise of the Crown, and that it was out of his power to issue them without the order of the Executive Government; and as the Government was now in the hands of the Lords Justices, of whom he was one, he could not in one capacity issue an order which he was himself to execute in another. The commissions would all expire on the 26th instant, and it was necessary to introduce the Bill to remedy the inconveniences he had pointed out.
The Bill read a second time.

SETTLEMENT OX THE SWAN RIVER.
Lord Teynhamrose, to call the attention of the House to the subject of the Swan River Settlement, and to put a question to the noble Secretary for the Colonies, relative to the condition of that Settlement. An extract of a letter on the condition of the settlement had appeared in The Morning Chronicle, which, both on account of the high character of the Paper, and the importance of the subject, was well worthy of attention. He would read to their Lordships the notice in The Morning Chronicle, which was in these terms:
" Distress in the Swan River Settlement.—The following is an extract from a letter just received from one of the most extensive of the settlers in Van Diemen's Land:—' The Swan River settlement is with us, just now, a constant subject of discourse. Messrs. Bryan made a good speculation in the William there. Flour sold for 60 l. per ton, potatoes for 15 l., and salt provisions for 8d. per pound;
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the whole of which was taken off their hands by the Governor. The live stock was unsaleable, till the Governor (Stirling) gave them a grant of 350,000 acres to put' it" on. The objection Mr. Bryan made to a second venture of provision was sufficiently descriptive of the state of the colony, He could not afford to supply a starving population from charity, and it was already out of their power to pay for their food. Their furniture, agricultural implements, all their preparations for comfort, are exposed to the weather, themselves are sheltered in huts formed of blankets. The country, for 100 miles round, is an arid sand or bare rock, no grass, no timber. Dr. Westbrook, who came from that place to this six months ago, told me he saw the grave for the first person who died there dug. It was nine feet deep, and the sand from the bottom was, when thrown up, fit for an hour-glass. The live stock dies in general a few days after landing, supposed to be poisoned by some herb or shrub, to avoid which certain loss, most sheep taken there to be-sold, or to breed from, are killed in the ships, and retailed as fresh provisions. The bush does not help them, as here; for there are no kangaroos, nor even opossums. The place must be abandoned; and I suppose the number of people will oblige the Government to remove them to a more promising part of the coast. It is, in fact, a second Poyais. What notice will be taken of Captain Stirling's misrepresentations remains to be seen, He might be supposed to have but a slight knowledge of the quality of the land; but the very roadsted is altogether unsafe for shipping though described by him as a fine harbour. Six vessels were ashore when the Britannia was there; three of them were complete wrecks. I have seen several stout anchors broken on the coral rocks before Freemantle. Mr. Bryan reports that there are not less than 200 females there, many of them used to more than the common, comforts of life, and yet they must starve, if not relieved by the Government, as their own resources are exhausted.'"
This was certainly a matter of deep and awful importance. Many people had embarked the whole of their property in this speculation, and great responsibility had been incurred, and great blame appeared to rest somewhere. Of course he did not mean to say, that any blame attached to the present Ministers, but if this representation was at all correct, blame must attach to some of their predecessors; and at all events, it was highly desirable that some satisfactory explanation should be given on the subject. Much had been said on the theory of emigration, which many persons had encouraged, from a notion that this country was over-peopled. But from what he knew of some parishes in the county of Kent, they did not contain more than the usual numbers, nor a greater number than might have been employed to advantage, if the farmers had the means

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of employing them. But the farmers had not the means of employing them at present, and that was one great cause of the distress. If he were to judge from these instances of the state of the whole country, he should be led to conclude, that there was no extraordinary superabundance of population. The expense of these emigrations was enormous, and perhaps it would be much better to colonize at home. A noble Lord, who had presented a petition on the subject, had stated, that he had observed, in a day's ride to town, 12,000 acres of waste land, and all this might probably be taken in with advantage, and afford employment to a great body of the peasantry. There were fifteen millions of acres of waste land in the whole country, and the taking them in might be formed into a source of employment which would make every peasant in the country happy. But no Administration had taken this matter in hand, and the people of this country were left to purchase articles from foreigners which might be very well produced at home. He hoped, however, that some plan of domestic colonization would be at last adopted; but in the mean time, he wished to know from the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to abandon the settlement on the Swan River, and whether the reports and representations as to the wretched condition of the colony were correct?
Lord Goderichobserved, in reply, that the Government had every reason to believe that the imputations on those who had established the settlement on the Swan River were not. founded in justice. It was not his intention at present to enter upon a discussion of the comparative merits of the systems of foreign and domestic colonization, nor did he mean to pronounce which was the better plan—to promote emigration, or to employ the peasantry in cultivating these fifteen millions of acres of waste land. But with regard to the particular question put to him by the noble Lord, he had to answer, that, as far as he was informed, it was not at present the intention of his Majesty's Government to abandon the Swan River Settlement. If the Government could rely on the last authentic accounts which they had received from the settlement, there was every prospect of its being- a very useful establishment, and one which
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was likely to realize all the expectations that had been formed of it. Every one who knew anything about colonization, knew, that at the outset it was attended with great difficulties, and it was expected that those who attempted the enterprise should be endowed with those moral qualities of energy, perseverance, and patience, which such an undertaking required. But some people, no doubt, would embark in such enterprises upon erroneous views and speculations, without duly estimating the preliminary hardships and privations which must be endured in such situations, and these persons would, no doubt, be disappointed. The last communication which the Government had received was a letter or despatch from Governor Stirling to Sir George Murray, dated the 20th of January last, and that communication gave no account of the distress of the colony, but, on the contrary, was on the whole very favourable. That document was now at the Office, ready to be laid on their Lordships' Table, if called for, and it gave very full information on the subject, and the individual from whom it proceeded was well known to be a man of cultivated mind, and of talents which fully qualified him to form an accurate judgment on such a matter. There was no objection whatever to the production of that document; and, if the noble Lord should follow up his question with the Motion which, as he had intimated to him, it was his intention to make, he would move, by way of Amendment, that a call for this document should be substituted in its place. This was the last authentic document which had arrived, and contained all the information which the Government at present had. The noble Lord must be aware, that it would be very imprudent in Government to act on loose and vague reports.
Lord Teynhamexpressed surprise, that Government should not have been able to procure information of so late a date as that which had been obtained by private individuals. Some of these had received information of so late a date as the 4th of May last, and it was singular that the Government alone should be uninformed. Some of these accounts stated, that there were no lands fit for cultivation beyond certain mountains mentioned; and that the people were suffering very considerably. He hoped that the Government would give directions to afford some relief to those who were suffering from the effects

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of a speculation undertaken without consideration, and concluded by moving for an account of the number of ships cleared out for the Swan River Settlement, during a certain period, and for an account of the lands in cultivation there.
Lord Goderichobserved, that the information to which the noble Lord had alluded, as having been obtained by private individuals, was not direct from the Swan River; but from other quarters,; which probably came from the Swan River, if it came at all, at a much earlier period than the information received by the Government. As to the first part of the noble Lord's Motion, there could be no objection to it, and he would only add to it, that the communication from Governor Stirling to Sir George Murray, dated the 20th of January last, be laid on the Table.
Motion agreed to.

SUITS IN COMMON LAW COURTS.
Lord Wynfordmoved the second reading of the Suits in Common Law Courts Bill, He would not have done so in the absence of the Lord Chief Justice, but he proposed that the discussion on the Bill should take place on the motion for commuting it after the recess.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that one of the clauses related to bona fide possessions, and he believed that many noble Lords would oppose that clause, and object to the Bill in detail, whilst others would oppose its principle.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that he should have no objection to strike out that clause, if any noble and learned Lord would take upon himself the responsibility of objecting to it.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, he should express his dissent to the clause in the committee.
Lord Wynfordwould then readily strike it out.
Bill read a second time.