Lords Sitting of 16 December 1830

MINUTES.
The Administration of Justice Bill was returned from the House of Commons, with their Lordships Amendments agreed to. The Colonial Acts Validity Bill was read a second time.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Hanley and Shelton, Staffordshire, against the Renewal of the East-India Company's Charter. By -the Duke of NORFOLK, the Marquis, of LANSDOWN, and the Earl of HADDINGTON, from various places, chiefly in Scotland, for the abolition of Slavery. For the repeal of the Coal Duties, by the Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation of the Town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne:—By the Marquis of Bute, from Cardiff and Neck, in Wales. By the Earl of DARNLEY, from George Gunning, esq., for Reform in the administration of the Poor-laws.

REPEAL OF THE UNION WITH IRELAND.
Lord Kinghad a Petition to present to their Lordships, on a very important subject, respecting which his opinions were quite at variance with those of the petitioners. When the measure of which they complained—the Union of Great Britain and Ireland, was under the consideration of the British Legislature —he was opposed to it; because he did not wish the corruptions of England to be increased by those of Ireland. But he now feared, that it would be a mischievous experiment to repeal that measure after such a lapse of time. He believed that Ireland would suffer greatly from the separation of the two countries, the more so as they could be separated only by means of war, and to that a repeal of the Union would certainly lead. If he were an Irishman, he might perhaps be induced to consult his national feelings, in opposition to his judgment. But although he knew little of Ireland himself, and from what he did know, he believed its condition to be very wretched; yet he had heard that there had recently appeared there some signs of improvement, to which the repeal, desired by petitioners, would put a stop, by immediately checking the introduction of English capital. If the Union were repealed, Ireland would lose the present
1202
excellent market for her produce which she found in Great Britain, and which was opened to her in 1806. One of the first consequences, he believed, of the repeal of the Union would be, to exclude the produce of Ireland from the market of England, which, to the great body of her people employed in raising food for this country, would be a most serious injury. A noble friend of his had stated, that the dissolution of the Legislative Union would lead to a total separation of the two countries, which he believed, and he even believed, that such a separation would be followed by war; entertaining opinions so adverse to the petitioners' claim, he wished that they had placed the petitions in other hands. His Lordship concluded by presenting Petitions from the Paper-stainers, Carpet-weavers, and other Trades of the City of Dublin, praying for the Repeal of the Union.
Earl Darnleyconcurred fully in the opinions expressed by the noble Lord who had just addressed their Lordships; but he had differed from that noble Lord when the Act of Union was passed, for he (Earl Darnley) had advocated that measure, in the expectation that benefits to Ireland would result from it, which he had not yet had the happiness to witness. However, he believed that the good effects would now be soon observed, as the healing measure which the Legislature had most wisely adopted in the last Session had removed the chief obstacles to the improvement of that country. He was convinced that the repeal of the Union would annihilate the incipient prosperity of Ireland. The individual who at present agitated that question had derived his importance from the injudicious attempt which had been made to exclude him from the other Mouse of Parliament. No calamity could be more destructive to the country of that individual than his efforts, should they be successful, in repealing the Union.

TITHES (IRELAND).
Lord Farnhammoved for various Returns respecting the parishes which had agreed to a Composition of Tithes in Ireland, under the late Act of Parliament on that subject. He explained, that the operation of that Act was greatly impeded by the manner in which the Select Vestries for settling the composition of tithes were constituted. The land of many parishes in Ireland was

1203
occupied principally in pasture, and in the cultivation of potatoes. Upon the latter the whole burthen of the tithes was thrown; so that the very poorest parishioners, to whom the potatoe-land, chiefly belonged, paid the most part of the tithes, from which the pasture-lands, always in the hands of the richer parishioners, were wholly exempt. Hence it became the interest of the Select Vestries, which consisted of only twenty-five persons (they being of course the richest inhabitants), to oppose the composition; because that would equalize the burthens between them and their fellow inhabitants. To enable the poor of Ireland, whose advantage the Act was chiefly calculated to promote, to benefit by its provisions, it was necessary to enlarge the Vestries. He would introduce a bill to increase them to fifty parishioners, in the course of the Session; unless the Government, in whose hands he should prefer leaving the matter, should themselves introduce such a measure. He would take that opportunity of stating, that, in those cases where the operation of the Act was prevented by the tithe-owners, the opposition was more frequently from lay impropriators than from the clergy.
Lord Kinghad no doubt, that if the tithe composition Act were carried into effect in Ireland upon fair terms, it would operate greatly to the advantage of the poorer classes, who would get rid of tithe Gatherers and Proctors, and the whole harassing and expensive machinery for the recovery of those vexatious claims. He held in his hands documents respecting the tithes in six parishes of the county of Wicklow, of which the names were to him unpronounceable, occupying a surface of upwards of 40,000 acres. In those parishes a meeting of 4,000 farmers was assembled to make a composition with Archdeacon Magee. The venerable Archdeacon not agreeing with the parishioners, resorted not to the Consistory Court, but to the Court of Exchequer, as affording the most expensive process for the recovery of his tithes. He would read to their Lordships an account, furnished by the Archdeacon to one of those farmers:—
Varney Cooney, to Archdeacon Magee, debtor Out of the Lands of Grange,

To Tithe of 47 tons of Hay at 30 s.

£7

1

10

Tithe of 197 brls. of Barley at 16 s.

15

15

2

Tithe of 88 brls. of Wheat at 30 s.

13

4

0

Tithe of 193 brls. of Oats at 15 s.

13

10

2

£49

10

4

1204
This land contains 12 acres of Wheat, 12½ of barley, 11 of oats, and 20 of meadowing. Any measures which would put an end to such a state of things would be beneficial.
Motion agreed to.

SLAVERY.
The Marquis of Lansdownpresented a Petition from the Magistrates and Town Council, and principal Merchants of the City of Glasgow, praying that precautionary measures might be adopted before the Legislature should determine to abolish Slavery in the Colonies. The noble Marquis said, that although the petition which he had the honour to present, was of a different prayer to most of those which had been laid before their Lordships, yet it would be unjust to term it a petition in favour of slavery. The petitioners stated that the inhabitants of Glasgow had, from their intercourse with the West-Indies, opportunities which few others possessed, of knowing the true condition of slaves in the colonies, and although they by no means advocated the perpetuation of negro slavery, they were convinced that great mischief would be occasioned by a rash and sudden abolition.—To lie on the Table.

THE REGENCY BILL.
The Lord Chancellor,in the absence of his noble friend (Lord Lyndhurst), rose to move their Lordships' concurrence to some Amendments which had been made in the Regency Bill, in the House of Commons. One of them was, the making provision for a case, which certainly had not been overlooked by his noble friend in the drawing up of the Bill, but which had been, in his opinion, properly rejected by him. The Amendment was contrary to the scheme and constitution of the Bill; and it provided for a state of things which, in the opinion of the noble Lord, and in his own, could very well be provided for when the exigency itself arrived. It was to the effect that, in case her present Majesty should die, and his Majesty marry again, the Bill should expire and be invalid. Now that was a case which could not come on by surprise; and a death and a marriage of such elevated persons were not likely to happen in twenty-four hours, and therefore time must be given for legislation. Still, the Amendment had been made in the other House; and though it was an instance of care and over-anxiety, more than of necessity, still, for the sake

1205
of unanimity, and as his noble friend had no objection to it, he recommended their Lordships to agree to it.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that another Amendment had been made, by the substitution of the words "Roman Catholic," for "Papist," as the latter had been considered as a term offensive to some persons of that persuasion. He hoped their Lordships would have no objection to the Amendment; and he was understood to say, that it would have been made at an earlier period, if a noble Duke, a member of that faith, had thought it worth while to have the alteration made.
The Amendments agreed to.

REFORM.
Lord Suffieldpresented a Petition from the Inhabitants of the Ward of Aldgate, in the City of London, praying for Reform in Parliament, and for the Repeal of the Assessed Faxes. He agreed with the petitioners as to the necessity of reform and retrenchment; and he would take that opportunity of saying that he gave the Ministers his support, with perfect confidence that they would act according to their declarations on those subjects. Much had been said on the question of Reform, to which he was as favourably disposed as any man in the House; so favourably, indeed, that on the very first time he took his seat, he had declared, with more zeal than discretion, that he never would give his support to any Administration which opposed that measure: and he, therefore, was glad that the time had arrived when he could give an Administration, pledged to reform, his general support. As long as the present Ministers acted up to their professions he would support them, and he had the fullest confidence that they meant to carry their promises into effect.
Petition laid on the Table.