Lords Sitting of 13 December 1830

MINUTES.
Bills. On the Motion of Lord TENTERDEN, the Bill for the amendment of the Administration of Justice Bill, was read a third time and passed.
Petitions presented. For the abolition of Slavery by the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, from the Inhabitants of Lyme Regis, Dorchester, and other places:—By the Earl of ESSEX, from Melton Mowbray:—By the Earl of ROSSLYN, Lord KING, the Duke of DEVONSHIRE, and Earl GROSVENOR, from various parts of the Kingdom. For the repeal of the Duties on Sea-borne Coals, by the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, from Andover, and from Bideford:—By the Duke of NORFOLK, from Arundel. By the Duke at DEVONSHIRE, from Derby, for a reduction of the Stamp Duties upon Newspapers. For Parliamentary Reform, by Lord RADNOR, from Annandale:—the Duke of DEVONSHIRE, from Ridgeway:—By the Duke of RICH-

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MOND, from Southover:—By Lord Napier, from a place in Scotland. By Lord GLENGALL, from various places in Ireland, for the Repeal of the Union.

RECENT APPOINTMENTS.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that in rising to make a Motion pursuant to notice which he had given on Friday evening last, he would take that opportunity (as the Adjournment of the House was now near at hand) of submitting to their Lordships a few observations relative to transactions of some importance in the present state of the country. He thought it right to state, that he had had no communication on those subjects with any Members of his Majesty's Government, and that his remarks had none of the weight of official authority. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships that when a return of certain salaries and payments above l,000 l. a-year, was lately presented to them, there were several omissions in it, and among others, that of the salaries of the officers of the Court of Common Pleas and of this House. With respect to the first he would say nothing, but of the last he happened to know that it was no fault of the officers of this House, for they were ready to present the necessary papers, had it not been thought that, in point of form, they were not properly called upon to do so. Undoubtedly, it was desirable that those papers should be on their Lordships' Table, in order that they might know the emoluments of the officers of the House, as well as those of other public functionaries. He certainly was a party to procuring the regulations by which those emoluments were now governed, for nothing could be more unsatisfactory than their state before the last arrangement was come to. The office of Clerk of the Parliament, was held, as their Lordships knew, by a respectable person, and it was thought fair to him, as well as proper in other respects, that there should be an examination into the matter. After pressing it on the attention of the Government for some time, it was at length determined that the subject should be referred to a Select Committee, and by that committee were the present regulations established. He was not a party to the arrangement, as to the emolument, though he did not mean to say, that the amount was too great, but merely that, whatever it might be, he was not a party to it. Their Lordships would recollect, in reference to the question of sinecures and useless places, agitated a
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long time back, that the returns shewed an amount of money uselessly expended greater than any person could have had any idea of, and further that there were many places granted in reversion, and which were kept up from generation to generation on the plea of vested interests. Unless a stop had been put to that system, the amount bestowed in places of that kind would have been still more alarming and astonishing than at present. But having repeatedly brought the subject under their Lordships' notice, it was at length taken into serious consideration, and the practice discontinued, thereby effecting a great saving to the public. Great hopes he knew were entertained of what might be effected by the present servants of the Crown, in the way of further reduction, but too much should not be expected from them, for however anxious they might be to spare the public purse, and reduce expenditure, they could not perform miracles. With the present enormous debt hanging over the country, be their savings what they might, they could not make any material impression on the general expenditure of the country. He therefore trusted, that their Lordships would not be too sanguine in their expectations. For these reasons, he had looked with almost cold indifference to the nomination of a committee to examine into a certain class of appointments, for he felt assured that nothing could be done which would afford effectual relief; besides, with whatever ability that committee might proceed, their Lordships knew too well the delays that had taken place in similar investigations,—indeed, in one committee a noble Lord had stated to him, that, after three years' labour, they had still done nothing. Their Lordships knew too much of the delays in the proceedings of committees to expect from that mode of investigation any immediate relief for the landed interest from the heavy load of taxation under which it was groaning. Look to the delay which must take place before any report to be acted upon could be made from the committee at present sitting on the Poor-laws. That committee might point out defects in the Poor-laws, —it might shew that they could be much amended,—that their administration could be bettered, and the condition of the poor ameliorated,—but its best work, in his opinion, would be, to prove, however defective the laws might be, that when gen-

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tlemen lived upon their own estates, instead of wasting their time and spending their money in the metropolis, or at watering-places abroad, the system had worked well; but although he expected little from the suggestions of the committee, whether they regarded machinery as affecting the condition of the poor, or the mal-administration of the laws, or the necessity of reducing expenditure, yet the very fact, that little would be done by the committee directly, might lead indirectly to a knowledge of that by which good could be done. Such an examination, shewing the hopelessness of effectual relief from any other quarter, might turn the public attention to resources frequently pointed out by writers on this subject, and which we must at last look in the face, however unpleasant it might be. Their Lordships' feelings might be shocked and revolted by the contemplation of the resources to be found in emigration, yet, "like the toad, evil and venomous," had they "a diamond in their head." If they looked at the present state of the country; their Lordships could not fail to be aware that the landed interest laboured under the severity of the taxation imposed upon it. It was impossible for the working class to get an advance of wages, for it was impossible that the farmer should have his land at a lower rate, and yet the landed interest support its present burthens. It was perfectly true, as had been stated over and over again, that the monied and landed interest should go together, and willing was the landed interest to do so, but it was unable to pay the demands now made on it. Should it, however, be borne down to ruin, what would be the fate of the monied interest? There could not be a doubt that if the landed interest fell, the monied interest would melt into thin air, and
" Like the baseless fabric of a vision,
Leave not a wreck behind."
Could it be said, however, that they were equally burthened? equally treated as if the fate of the one depended on the fate of the other? Numberless taxes had been imposed on land, from which it could not possibly escape, whilst funded property, however great, did not necessarily contribute one shilling to the burthens of the country. Many persons having money in the funds, Jews and Gentiles, inhabitants, not of England, but of France, of Russia, of Prussia, of Italy, Spain and Portugal, nay, even of Africa and America, although
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their property receives the protection of our laws, contributed not a farthing in the shape of taxes; and even those who resided in England need not, necessarily, contribute to the revenue of the country, but locking up their money in that famous box which was so much spoken of on a former evening, they might shelter it from those taxes which the land had no means of escaping. Let their Lordships, then, view the question fairly, candidly, and dispassionately, and consider whether the protection of so great a property as, the funds, as well as the protection of the land and every other species of property, should not bind the persons holding it, to contribute something to the maintenance of the laws by which it was protected. He would not say more on that point, but content himself with thus throwing it out for the consideration of their Lordships. He would then address himself to another topic of great importance to the country, though not, perhaps, of such permanent importance as that he had just touched upon; he referred to what passed on a former evening, when a question was put to a noble Earl (Bathurst) respecting an office just then vacant. He wished to state, fairly, candidly, and he hoped correctly, and certainly with no sort of ill feeling towards the noble Earl, what had taken place on that subject. Let him remind their Lordships, that on Monday, the 15th of November, there was a division in the other House of Parliament, which induced the noble Duke, then at the head of the Government, to tender his resignation to his Majesty, which tender the noble Duke informed their Lordships his Majesty had most graciously accepted. Mr. Buller, one of the Clerks of the Council, having suddenly died, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or Secretary for the Home Department, in the other House of Parliament, was asked if it had been filled up, and the answer was, that the right hon. Gentleman was not aware of the fact. The rumour first was, that the noble Earl who then held the place of the President of the Council had, with breathless haste, applied for the situation for a relation of the party who had last held it; but it was afterwards reported that he had asked it for his own son. This office, it should be recollected, had a salary of 2,000 l. a-year attached to it, and was not usually considered a very efficient one, but rather of a patent nature.

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Knowing that there might be some difficulty in abolishing or regulating that office, if it had been so disposed of, upon being made aware of the answer given to a question on the subject in the House of Commons, he thought it right to lose no time in putting a question to the noble Earl upon the subject, as he, of course, was the only person who could give a distinct and satisfactory answer. He asked the noble Earl, whether the office in question had been filled up, and his answer was to the effect, that the place had not been filled up, and immediately there was a general cheer throughout the House, and all the advocates of economy began to calculate upon a considerable saving in the office. There was much difficulty in getting at the truth in these matters, but it really would now appear, that the noble Earl's haste was such as had been described, for the office was given to his son immediately before the resignation of Ministers. He did not mean to say, that the noble Earl stated that the office had not been given, but his answer was such as to induce that belief in every one who heard him; he might, therefore, have kept "the word of promise to the ear," but he had "broken it to their Lordships' hopes." There was another point on which he should be glad to hear an explanation from the noble Lord opposite. It appeared from a supplementary list of pensions, salaries, &c. on the Civil List, presented to the other House of Parliament, that, on the 16th of November, the noble Duke having then tendered his resignation, and his Majesty having accepted it, three pensions were granted, and on the 20th of November another. He would not go into the merits of the persons to whom these pensions had been granted, but the three first, were one of 500 l., and two of 250 l. a-year each, and the last of 660 l., granted to Lady Rae, four days after the dissolution of the Administration. Having said so much of the acts of the last Administration, he would take the liberty of saying a few words upon those of the Ministers now in office. A statement having been made that a pension was to be granted to the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack met it by a declaration that that change had not taken place, and that, if it did, no greater burthen would be thrown upon the country. He could not see how that should be made a matter of charge against the Government, for the Chancellor of Ireland, like
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the Chancellor of England, had always been considered a political Officer, and, upon changes of the Administration, it had always been customary, therefore, to change both. It did so happen that, at present, in consequence of this practice, there were two Ex-chancellors in the House, receiving considerable pensions, and he hoped they might long continue to ornament it. One of them is an octagenarian, as well as the late Irish Chancellor, and it could not be expected that their lives would be much prolonged, but still it must be a matter of regret that political changes should entail this sort of charge upon the country. He had heard, but he knew not whether it proceeded from good authority, that the late Chancellor of England was to be appointed to some judicial situation, in which his great abilities would be turned to the advantage of the country, which he should be very happy to see, as well as to effect a saving of 4,000 l. a-year. The noble Earl near him (Grey) had been accused unjustly, of placing too many of his own relations and connexions in the Administration. It was natural that he should wish to have them as much about him as possible, in his responsible situation, and if properly qualified, as no doubt they were, to fill useful offices, there could be no fair objection to them? If the country had been loaded with useless offices and sinecures on their account, which was not the case, it would have been a different matter. He would, in conclusion, move for a return of the emoluments of the Officers of that House, only observing, that he did not propose to have the paper which had been laid before the other House of Parliament also laid before their Lordships, because they had access to all the printed papers of the other House, and the paper in question had been extensively circulated. The noble Earl then moved for "An Account of all Salaries, Profits, Pay-fees, and Emoluments, held and enjoyed by the Clerks and Officers of this House, between the 5th of January, 1829, and the 5th of January 1830, the total amount of which shall exceed 1,000 l., specifying with each Name the total Amount received by each Individual, and distinguishing the various Sources from which the same are derived."
The Marquis of Lansdowndid not think it necessary to occupy the House by following the noble Earl in detail through ail the observations which he (Earl Gros-

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vernor) had made; but he would answer, one of the questions of the noble Earl, because he was more competent than any other noble Lord to give satisfaction, both respecting the filling-up of the office to which that question referred, and the person who had been appointed to it, in as much as the appointment had rested with him. When he had received his Majesty's commands to undertake the duties of President of the Council, he received from his noble predecessor a communication to the effect that, on the 15th of the last month, when the office of clerk to the council became vacant by the death of Mr. Buller, his Majesty had signified to him (Lord Bathurst) that it was his pleasure that the place should be filled by Mr. Bathurst, to whom his Majesty's pleasure on that occasion was communicated. When he received that formal communication, he felt bound, whenever the place should be filled, to carry into effect the intentions of his Majesty respecting Mr. Bathurst, although no actual arrangement had been made respecting that gentleman by the late Ministers. At the same time he felt himself also at liberty to advise his Majesty to direct whatever reduction in the salary of that clerkship might seem consistent with the proper discharge of the duties. In justice to the noble Earl, he ought to inform their Lordships, that the letter which he received from that noble Earl, dated the 25th of November last, stated it to have been the intention of his Majesty's late confidential advisers to put the salary of the clerk to the council on a lower rate than that at which it had been formerly fixed. On receipt of that letter he did not think it necessary to communicate with Mr. Bathurst respecting the office until he should have considered what reduction ought to be made in the salary, consistently with a due regard to the public service, which he believed would admit of a very considerable reduction. The business of the council rendered it necessary that a clerk should always be present during its sittings; and although the presence of one clerk only was required, yet it was expedient to have either two clerks, or to appoint a deputy clerk. It was determined to reduce the salaries of the two clerks to 1,200 l. a year, so that the duties of both should be performed at no greater expense than that to which the country was put for the salary of Mr. Buller alone. Besides, it
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was the intention of his Majesty's Government, whenever any person, having already a salary of 1,000 l. a year or upwards, should receive an additional appointment of the value of 500 l. annually, that allowance should merge in the 1,000 l.; so that, as Mr. Bathurst held at present an office in the Exchequer, on account of which he received a salary of 500 l. a year that sum should be deducted from his new stipend of 1,200 l. a year. By that arrangement the actual saving effected in the clerkship to the council amounted to 1,700 l. annually; and it was likely that opportunities would arise which would permit a still further reduction. Having answered the question of the noble Earl, he did not think that the House would expect him, on such a motion as had been submitted to their Lordships, to go into all the topics which the noble Earl had introduced. On these subjects the most satisfactory "explanations had already been made to their Lordships, which was, that the most unsparing retrenchment would be carried into effect. Retrenchment was always the duty of his Majesty's Government, but in times like the present, to use a word which he had already heard used on the same subject, it was their paramount duty. It was the determination of his Majesty's Ministers to cut off all useless expenses, but not to make a reduction in consequence of which the public service would be inadequately performed.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that the delay in the appointment to the vacant offices, before the resignation of the late Administration, had been occasioned by their intention to reduce the salaries. With respect to the recently-granted pensions, to which a question of the noble Earl opposite had reference, their Lordships were aware that a considerable sum was always granted to his Majesty, to enable him to confer pensions upon those who were deserving: true it was, that the Civil List expired with the King; and it was also true, that at the time of the last demise of the Crown there was a considerable number of vacancies in the list of pensioners. He rather believed, that the more regular course would have been, not to have recommended his present Majesty to make any new grants out of the Civil List until the Act should have passed regulating its amount; but the custom unquestionably had been, to recommend

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the filling-up of vacancies as they occurred, without regard to the passing of the Civil List Act. He had followed the ordinary course, and had continued it from the accession of his Majesty to the hour when he relinquished the seals of office as First Lord of the Treasury. The noble Earl had said, that he (the Duke of Wellington) had come down to the House on the 16th November, and announced that he had resigned his office, and that his Majesty had been graciously pleased to accept that resignation; but the noble Earl forgot to state, that he had added, that he would retain the situation until a successor was appointed. He had, in fact, retained it until the noble Earl opposite, so worthily appointed, had relieved him in the following week. In the mean time he had recommended to the King the grant of certain pensions, and on the very day when he relinquished the seals, he had applied to his Majesty on the subject. For this course he felt that he was responsible: if he had done wrong he should deserve censure for that wrong doing; but he begged to say, that he was firmly convinced that their Lordships would not think he had erred with regard to any of the pensions which he had been the means of conceding. Two of them had been granted to gentlemen who, for three years, had done him the favour of acting as his private secretaries; and looking at the history of former Administrations, it would be seen how amply such gentlemen had always been provided for. They ought to be provided for, for this reason—that not a paper of any description came into his (the Duke of Wellington's) hands, from any office—and he had them from all offices—that did not, in some way or other, pass through those of one of his Secretaries. It was not fit, therefore, that individuals who possessed their official knowledge should remain without provision. He would tell their Lordships fairly, that having put down and discontinued on the establishment every office of every kind that became vacant while he was First Lord of the Treasury, and not having had—which he could assure the House was the truth— above two offices to give away, and those not amounting to 200 l. a year each, he had not had the means of providing for his Secretaries; he had, therefore, asked the favour of his Majesty to grant them 250 l a year each out of the Civil List.
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Another pension had been granted at his suggestion to a gentleman who had been for many years in the public service, under different Administrations, and as a vacancy occurred to that amount, we understoood his Grace to say 500 l., he hoped it would be thought that it had not been improperly disposed of. With respect to the last point noticed by the noble Earl he (the Duke of Wellington) had felt himself bound, if possible, to make some provision for that learned Lord, who was highly deserving, and who, he believed, had given universal satisfaction. He had therefore recommended him to his Majesty, and he had also recommended another gentleman, who had been taken into the service of his Majesty, and raised to the dignity of a Privy Councillor, and for whom, he was of opinion, that the King was in honour bound to provide. He had been elevated above the sphere from which he had been taken, and to that he could not return. In these various transactions he hoped their Lordships would think that he had done nothing improper or inconsistent with the usual practice of office.
Earl Grey Earl Grey, before offering a few remarks on the conversation which had, he must say, unexpectedly arisen, took occasion to state the inconvenience he felt, and which their Lordships must feel, from the introduction of conversations of this nature, of which no notice was given, and from discussion, like the present, which applied to no motion before the House, and embraced subjects, some of them known, and others unknown, and depending entirely upon rumour. A noble Lord had adverted to certain appointments said to be in contemplation; now he could not but complain that Ministers should be brought there to discuss the possibility of appointments which it was not pretended had been as yet made. In point of fact, he found the matter so inconvenient, that he really did not know how to address their Lordships on the various subjects which had been mooted, and on one of them, the weight of taxation on landed property, he should decline saying anything on that occasion. His noble friend (the Marquis of Lansdown) had satisfied their Lordships on the subject of the Clerk of the Council, and in relation to what had been said on the subject of pensions, the noble duke opposite had given a full explanation. He would not enter into any discussion of

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the point: with respect to two of the pensions it was impossible for him to offer any observation; in reference to the other two he should merely say, perhaps it would have been more regular if the noble Duke had not taken his Majesty's pleasure on the subject till the Civil List had been first granted. This the noble Duke himself admitted, and the observation appeared to him so true, that he really did not see, the Civil List having expired, upon what authority the pensions could have been granted. With respect to some legal appointments expected to take place, and a reference to which had been introduced, also without notice, on a former occasion, he must entreat the attention of the House for a few moments. On a former night a question had been put by the noble Earl on the cross-bench on this subject, and it was answered by his noble friend on the Woolsack. He regretted that he was not present on the occasion; but the question was put upon a day (Wednesday) generally understood not to be the most convenient for business, and on which therefore it was usual for many of their Lordships to relax in their attendance on the House. Acting in conformity with this understanding, and having been much occupied with public business elsewhere, he so far failed in his duty as to be absent from his place that evening, and therefore had no opportunity of replying to the noble Lord. But now that the subject had been revived, he must say a few words in relation to it; and he must commence by observing, that he did not think the legal and political capacity and character in which the Lord Chancellor, both in this country and in Ireland, must be considered, could very well be separated. This being the case, so long as an individual was to hold the office of Lord Chancellor, he must be elected to it by the existing Government; and whenever a change of Administration took place, there must be a change on the Chancery-bench. In Ireland, it was said, there need not be any such change with respect to the Chancellor; and it was asserted, that Sir Anthony Hart, whose great merits he should be among the first to acknowledge, was not in that situation which required any alteration to be made with respect to him. It was said, that the Irish Chancellor was not much of a political character, that Sir Anthony Hart had no political bias whatever, and that his was not a political
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appointment. He denied this, and maintained that it could not be said that the Irish Chancellor did not act in a high political capacity; and with respect to Sir Anthony Hart's appointment and proceedings in the very beginning of his official career, he (Earl Grey) very well recollected having seen his name subscribed to political proclamations, devised with a view to meet the disorders then existing in Ireland, Surely this clearly connected Sir Anthony Hart with politics. When he (Earl Grey) was raised to the situation which he then filled, it did occur to him, considering the state of Ireland, and all the evils existing in that country, which it was necessary to take steps to provide against,—it did occur to him,— not disputing Sir A. Hart's capacity and great legal acquirements,—that a Lord Chancellor should be appointed who would afford the Lord Lieutenant in council that assistance which the state of the country might require. In looking for such a person no individual occurred to his mind so proper as Lord Plunkett to fill the situation of Chancellor. He thought the appointment of that eminent individual calculated to conciliate a number of individuals—considering his acknowledged abilities, and great legal acquirements—considering that he had long lived in that country, and had acquired an extensive local knowledge of its interests. If he looked to the Catholics, he could not but suppose Lord Plunkett's appointment as Chancellor agreeable to them, who had long seen in him the able and zealous advocate of their cause; and among the Protestants, he thought he saw strong grounds for confidence in Lord Plunkett, who had invariably supported the Established Church with his best energies. Looking generally to all classes of the country, he thought the noble Lord must appear to them eminently qualified, by knowledge, experience, character, and abilities, to become the adviser of the Lord Lieutenant. It was under those circumstances that he had conceived the idea of the appointment; all the arrangements connected with which, however, were not as yet entirely completed, and he therefore deprecated the discussion of the subject as extremely inconvenient and irregular. At the same time that he felt it his duty to recommend to his Majesty a change in the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he was

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actuated by the strongest desire not to do anything that would bear the construction of a slight or harshness towards Sir A. Hart. But he did think it necessary to recommend a change. The alteration had been complained of as entailing an additional burthen of 4,000 l. a year on the country. Now he should regret extremely if the change (necessary as he considered it) could not be made without adding, in however trifling a degree, to the public expenditure; but, he asked, would that be a wise economy which should prevent Ministers, for the sake of saving a few thousands per annum, from making a change, which they considered extremely desirable? However, as a desire to effect all the saving practicable was uppermost in the minds of Ministers, and as they wished, in making the arrangement, to adhere to this resolution, perceiving that an additional burthen of 4,000 l. (or 3,600 l. English currency) would be imposed on the public, they considered in what manner that expense could be lessened, and he had to state that measures would be taken with that view. In giving the pension to Sir A. Hart, to which he was entitled, Ministers contemplated a permanent reduction in the allowance of the Lord Chancellor from 10,000 l., which, considering all the circumstances of the case, appeared a greater sum than was necessary, to 8,000 l. a year, so that the charge upon the public was 3,600 l. a year for the life of an old man, while 2,000 l. per annum would be saved in future in the salary of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. He threw himself upon the kind feelings of the House and the public to say whether, in this arrangement, he could be charged with inattention to the wants and necessities of the people, when everything connected with a wise and just economy had been regarded: and he had only rejected the bad economy involved in saving a small sum annually, and continuing the Irish Government on such a principle as might not meet all the exigencies of the times. With respect to some other arrangements connected with Ireland, which were not as yet fully completed, he did not pretend, individually, to possess much minute knowledge of the state of Ireland, but he had consulted with those who had enjoyed better opportunities of acquiring information on the subject. His great anxiety was, to fill up the vacant offices
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in a manner best calculated to promote the public service, at the same time preventing jealousies and discontent by the fairness of the appointments. He thought he had best consulted all these points in the course he had taken, and should be greatly disappointed indeed if the nominations excited disapprobation, when he expected the contrary, having nothing in view throughout but the efficiency of the public service and general harmony and satisfaction. There was another circumstance alluded to by his noble friend, which was one more of the rumours in relation to which Ministers had been questioned,—he referred to the noble Lord's allusion to the possibility of a noble person in that House receiving an appointment which would cause some reduction in the public expenditure. For that noble person he had a most unfeigned respect. There was no situation, however high, which he was not fit to fill; but (and here again he had to complain of being forced to reply to rumours), it was with regret that he was unable to confirm the statement which his noble friend had alluded to. His noble friend had stated, that accusations were made against him (Earl Grey) as if he had sanctioned improper appointments by the Government, with a view to promote the interests of his own kindred and connexions. In forming the Government, he had throughout, and in every instance, been influenced exclusively by considerations of the personal qualifications of individuals for office: in no case had he deviated from this rule. If he promoted persons, it was because he considered them fit for the places to which they were nominated, and from no other considerations whatsoever. The members of his own family who had received appointments were not many, and perhaps the first to be noticed was that of a noble Peer (Lord Durham), who by marriage had become a member of his family. In forming the Government, he had been guided, not merely by that noble Lord's abilities, but by the consistency of his opinions, and the excellence of his character. The office given to that noble Lord it could not be disputed that he was well qualified to fill. The next individual to whose appointment he would refer was, if possible, still more nearly related—his own son.' He had certainly considered an official situation of that kind an honourable object of ambition for a young man;

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and he had, by the kindness of his noble friend (Viscount Goderich), made him Under Secretary for the Colonies. He confessed he did look with pleasure to the opportunity of placing his son in a situation in which he might become acquainted with the business of Government, and perhaps qualify himself for the discharge of the duties of more important situations hereafter. He had been the more anxious to place him in that particular department, because it was one of the greatest importance, and because it was presided over by a person of such acknowledged skill and experience as his noble friend near him; bat he should not have placed him in that or in any other department, if he had not been persuaded that he was possessed of diligence, and that he was in all respects qualified to discharge the duties of the situation with satisfaction to the public. He had therefore given this appointment to his son; but he had given it to him as he had given appointments to all others, and that, he hoped he need hardly assure their Lordships, was upon this understanding, and upon no other,—namely, that if he had not diligence, or was not qualified to discharge the duties of the situation with perfect satisfaction to the public, he should be removed instantly, and without a moment's hesitation. There were two or three others, more or less connected with him, who had been appointed to situations under the Crown. These he need not more particularly designate; but allow him to say, that he had no conception, when he accepted office, that it was necessary for him to surround himself with strangers, and carefully to exclude from office every person who might happen to be connected with him. That this would or ought to be expected from him, he repeated, he did not know; neither was he able to perceive the propriety of such expectations; but he could assure their Lordships upon his honour, that no one of the persons who had been alluded to would have been appointed to the situations they filled, unless he had been firmly convinced that they were all, not only qualified, but eminently qualified to fill those situations; and he would willingly submit to any censure that might be passed upon him there or elsewhere, if any one of them could be pointed out who was undeserving the character which he then pronounced upon them. It was rather too late for him to begin now to forfeit
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that character, such as it was, which it had hitherto been his pride and his glory to uphold, by giving away appointments from interested motives, or of affording reason to suppose, that in the discharge of the important duties that now devolved upon him, he could be actuated by any other desire than to supply the service of the State in the ablest and most efficient manner. Their Lordships would, he was sure, see that he had been forced to make these observations, and he did trust that the explanations, which the occasion had called for, would be considered satisfactory to their Lordships.
Lord Farnhamsaid, that notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Earl (Grey), his experience of Ireland justified him in saying, that political and judicial office, in the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, ought not to be united. The great advantage which resulted from the appointment of Sir Anthony Hart consisted in its being well known that he was in no degree connected with any political party. No one that he was now addressing could, any more than himself, entertain any doubt as to the eminent abilities and acquirements of Lord Plunkett; but then Lord Plunkett was considered to be opposed to the political views of certain persons in Ireland, and those persons were some of the most zealous friends of the British connexion. In the north of Ireland there was a large number of persons, who would at one time have shed the last drop of their blood in the maintenance of British connexions; but these persons were now fast approximating to the views of those who thought that the union between the two countries was prejudicial to Ireland. For his own part, every one, he was sure, must see that he was led, as well by his principles as by his interest, to. consider the repeal of the Union as the most prejudicial measure for both countries. He should, therefore, oppose that project to the utmost of his power, and he thought he was not going too far when he said, he was sure that every respectable man in Ireland would use his most strenuous exertions to prevent the success of the project; but if the appointment of Lord Plunkett could by possibility make any converts to the friends of the repeal of the Union, he was justified in lamenting that such an appointment should have taken place.
Earl Greyperfectly concurred with the

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noble Lord who had just sat down, in the position that it was necessary for them to do every thing in their power in order to prevent, not the injurious, for that was too mild a word, but the destructive consequences which must result from the dissolution of the Union. The dissolution of the Union was nothing more nor less than the separation of the two countries; and so strongly did he feel upon the subject, and doubtless the feelings of their Lordships were as strong, that he had no hesitation in saying, that the most effectual means must be resorted to, in order to prevent the success of a project so fraught with dangerous and destructive consequences. This, too, appeared to be the opinion of the noble Lord himself; and if it were so, he must say, that he could not help regretting, that instead of strongly expressing that opinion, the noble Lord should have held language which was calculated to produce discontent among those who were not discontented, and to inflame still more those who were already heated. The noble Lord had warned him lest the present Administration should be considered as hostile to the Protestant interest in Ireland; but if the present Administration should be so considered in Ireland, it would obtain that reputation only by the most gross misrepresentation, or by the most erroneous judgment. He hoped their Lordships would bear it in their recollection, that he had stated, in the arrangements which had been made with regard to Ireland, what he had had chiefly in view was, to show to the people of Ireland that all the different interests in that country—at least, what were supposed to be different interests, but which were in truth only different opinions and different feelings—had been consulted. It was with this view, and also with the hope that these imaginary distinctions of interests in Ireland would be removed, that the arrangements alluded to had been made, and that Lord Plunkett had been placed in the difficult and delicate post of adviser to the Lord Lieutenant. In this view it was, that he supposed that the appointment of Lord Plunkett would have been generally approved; and he must say, that he did regret that any one who had expressed his dislike to a separation between the two countries, should have given the slightest encouragement to the opinion that Lord Plunkett was opposed to the Protestant interest of Ireland; and that
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he much more regretted that the appointment of Lord Plunkett should have been put forward—he would not say as a justification, but—as accounting for the spread of hostile feelings towards the union between the two countries. He wished to uphold the Protestant and the Catholic interest of Ireland; and he wished to uphold both for the happiness and the security of Ireland. The noble Lord, however, chiefly rested upon this position, —namely, that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland ought not to have political duties, and that the appointment of Sir Anthony Hart was a good appointment, because Sir Anthony Hart was not a politician. The noble Lord, however, seemed to have altogether lost sight of the peculiar circumstances under which Sir Anthony Hart was appointed. Sir Anthony Hart was appointed at a time when great excitement prevailed on the subject of the Catholic Question, and for that reason it was that Lord Plunkett, though best qualified to fill the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland, was set aside, in order that there might be no additional ground for exciting agitation on that subject. There was now, however, an end of that agitation; and the agitation which did at present exist in Ireland, would, in his opinion, be materially lessened, if not altogether put an end to, by the appointment of Lord Plunkett. At least this was the object which he had had in view in making the arrangement of which the noble Lord complained.
Viscount Goderichsaid, that the appointment of Sir Anthony Hart having originated with him, he might offer a few words in explanation, of the motives which had induced him to name him for the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. It arose exclusively from the view he took, or rather which Mr. Canning, his predecessor, had taken, of the extreme embarrassment of Ireland, by the non-settlement of the Catholic question. He felt that this mode of disposing of the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland would afford some chance of mitigating the evil of the system. He never dreamt of recommending such a course as a permanent principle, adherence to which would be attended with the greatest possible inconvenience. Thank God, the immediate cause of discontent had been removed, and such being the case, it seemed to him that the choice of Lord Plunkett was well advised; that

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he was well qualified for a situation of such responsibility and official confidence; and that, far from deserving any imputation, it was one of the wisest steps that could be taken, and would contribute more than anything else to pacify the agitation in Ireland, and prevent a measure which, as his noble friend had said, would not only be a separation, but a total destruction of the interests of Ireland.
The Earl of Gosfordwas convinced, that the present Administration, if they had a fair trial given them, would be found most favourable to the Protestant interest of Ireland. As an Irishman he felt it his duty to state this conviction, and to say, that he should give the present Administration all the support in his power, because, if they redeemed the pledges they had made, they would deserve support. He could not concur with the noble Lord (Farnham) in the opinion that the appointment of Lord Plunkett would be considered in Ireland as a manifestation of hostility or indifference, on the part of Government, to the Protestant interest of that country.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that he had called for these explanations, in order that an authorized contradiction might be given to the false and malicious rumours which were so industriously circulated. The very satisfactory explanations, for such he was sure their Lordships would consider them, which the noble Earl had given, proved that it was not necessary that he should have communicated to the noble Earl the topics to which he intended to call the attention of the House.
Motion agreed to.