Lords Sitting of 29 April 1830

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord de DUNSTANVILLE, from the Merchant Seamen at Falmouth, against a Deduction from their Pay for the Support of Greenwich Hospital. By Lord NAPIER, from Dumfries, for throwing open the Trade to India. By the ARCHBISHOP of YORK, from the Protestant Dissenters at Pontefract, for the Abolition of Slavery. By the Earl of DARNLEY, from Chatham and Gillingham, praying for the extension of Poor-laws to Ireland.
Accounts presented. The rate and amount of Duty paid on Flour and Meal entered for Home-consumption between July 5, 1828, and January 5, 1830:—The Duties paid during the last Ten Years on China-ware, Earthen-ware, Cotton, Glass, Iron, Lead, Gloves, and various other Foreign Manufactures.

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
Earl Greysaid, he had a Petition to offer, which purported to have emanated from a Meeting of the County of Northumberland, and to be signed by the High Sheriff. He believed, however, that in point of form it could be only received as the petition of the individual subscriber, the House not sanctioning, in a legal sense, that the act of the High Sheriff was, in this respect, necessarily that of the county at large. It was right he should state that this petition was, as he had understood, adopted unanimously by the meeting; but it had been left at his house, where he found it upon his arrival in town, unaccompanied by any other communication or instruction than that which the petition itself conveyed. He knew it to be a fact, however, that there had been a county meeting in Northumberland; he knew it to be a fact that the High Sheriff was requested to

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transmit such a petition, and also that it was to have been sent to himself: he therefore could have no doubt in tendering this petition to the House as a genuine document, although he had received no communication on the subject of it. The petitioners begged leave to state the great distress of the Shipping-interest, and that notwithstanding the privations which they endured, at no former period were the people more peaceable and obedient to the laws. They stated several causes, or combinations of causes, to which they ascribed the prevailing distress. Whatever those causes really were, one thing appeared clear,—that the people were evidently unable to bear the pressure of taxation which now weighed upon them. They referred to promises contained in the King's Speech at the opening of the Session of Parliament, and expressed their confident reliance upon the wisdom of their Lordships to provide a remedy for their grievances. They likewise prayed the House to revise the different measures which had been adopted since the year 1819, relative to the currency, and they recommended, in the strongest terms, economy in the administration of the national affairs. Having discharged his duty in presenting this petition, and in thus stating its prayer, he did not know that it was incumbent upon him to say any thing more, except that, from his local knowledge of the county of Northumberland, he could say, that the distress there was very great, though perhaps not so great as it was at that moment in other parts of the kingdom. He ought to state his belief, that a degree of distress so heavy and great must proceed from some general and pervading cause: he had at the same time no hesitation in saying, that he did not go the length of the petitioners, in wishing to see a revision of all the prominent measures which had passed since 1819. They did not state in what particular way they wished this to be done, and in the absence of any instructions he could not explain precisely what were their views. Whether the cause of this distress were capable of any remedy, and whether that remedy ought to be a revision of the currency, he was not prepared to say; but at the same time he had no doubt that the change made in the currency in 1819, or rather the difficulties which were found to have arisen out of it, did, in point of fact, press hard upon all the manufacturing, commercial, and agricultural classes; for
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they had to contend with the immense burthen of an enormous debt, in great part contracted in a depreciated currency, while the interest of it now was made payable in a greatly improved medium of value. When he adverted to these transactions, he did not mean to exempt himself from blame, as he was in Parliament at the time when these measures were enacted. His present opinion certainly was, that the Act of 1819 was passed without a sufficient foresight of the consequences which must accrue from it; and nobody had anticipated the extent to which they had occurred. Whether the mischief was capable of any remedy now, he knew not; nor would he be the person who would suggest even, much less propose, any measure which would incur the suspicion of an intention to impair that faith on which the public credit was founded. In turning his mind to this subject, he had considerable doubts whether they could (as some persons wished) revise the Act of 1819, in the hope of reestablishing the previous state of things; but still he thought that another branch of the subject might be so modified as to mete out immense relief to the general distress which so unhappily prevailed,—for instance, an admission of the circulation of small notes, with a proper and well-arranged system of security, and a guard against the acknowledged abuses which took place in 1825. At present, in looking at the bank-note system of the kingdom, it was impossible to avoid being-struck with the anomaly, that while small bank notes were in full circulation in Ireland and Scotland, they were interdicted in England; it did appear to him a still further anomaly, that in his own county the Scottish small notes should be in circulation for twenty miles within the borders of Northumberland. The fact was, that it was there the people in the neighbouring part of Scotland came to buy their coals and corn, and the purchaser could of course only give in exchange the circulating medium which he had a this command, and the people took it rather than lose their coal and corn market. This was done, he had reason to believe, with the connivance of Government, and in open defiance of the penalties of the law, which were in themselves somewhat singular also, for the penalty was to fall not upon the receiver, but on the payer. The people of the county afterwards sent the notes

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for payment to places provided by the banks of Scotland for the exchange of their notes. The removal he thought, then, of the restriction upon the circulation of small notes in England, under proper safeguards, would afford extensive relief to those who were now suffering so severely throughout the country. He knew no way of proceeding better calculated to do present good, and avoid, as he had before said, even the suspicion of trenching upon the national faith, which never could be thought of except under the pressure of an uncontrollable and irresistible necessity which left no choice of any other alternative. He would not trouble their Lordships with any further observations in bringing up this petition.
Laid on the Table.

DUTY OX CORN SPIRITS.
The Earl of Malmesbury roseto present a Petition from a most respectable body of individuals connected with the trade of the country,—he meant the Distillers of the United Kingdom,—to which he entreated, generally, the attention of the House, but more particularly that of the noble Viscount opposite (Lord Goderich), who had been Chancellor of the Exchequer in the year 1825. These petitioners would not have trespassed upon the Legislature were it not for the late circumstance which had come to their knowledge, that it was intended to abrogate a solemn agreement which had been made with them, and to levy an additional duty of 1s. per gallon upon the Spirits they manufactured, without imposing an equal tax upon Rum. The noble Lord then read the following petition:—They state, "That when the respective Duties of 7s. per gallon on Corn Spirits, and 8s. 6d. per gallon on Rum, were imposed, the difference of 1s. 6d.per gallon was, after the most mature considerations on the part of Government, considered as a necessary protection to the manufacture of Corn Spirits in England. That Rum and Corn Spirits being distilled from different materials, are not alike applicable to every purpose. Rum may easily be converted into Gin (an article, in the manufacture of which almost all the Corn Spirits made for consumption in England are used); but Corn Spirits can by no process yet discovered be converted into Rum, consequently it is the preferable Spirit of the two, and it may be produced by the Colonies in any quantity. That Rum not
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only enjoys the free scope of the home-market, and with the difference of the duty above-mentioned is permitted to be rectified and compounded, but has the exclusive supply of the Army and Navy services requiring 400,000 gallons annually. That Rum, as imported from the Colonies, is already prepared for consumption, and requires no further process; whereas Corn Spirits, after the payment of 7s. per gallon, is unsaleable in England unless it be at a considerable expense rectified and compounded. That in the enjoyment of these advantages, and since the duty has been reduced to 8s. 6d. per gallon, on the average of the last four years the consumption of Rum has increased about fifty per cent. They further submit to your Lordships that the Corn Spirits pay the duty upon the Malt used in their manufacture, and that they are sometimes made from Malt alone; this duty the distiller has to pay in addition to the Spirit duty of 7s. per gallon. That as long as a protecting duty is imposed on Corn for securing the interest of the landholder, the Corn distillery pays nearly double the price at which, without the payment of any duty, he could import his Corn from the Continent. That this duty at present amounts to nearly 1s. per gallon on the cost of his Spirits. That the Corn distiller suffers great disadvantages from the Legislative restraints imposed on his process of manufacture; for securing the Revenue he is subjected to a mode of work accompanied by restrictions unknown in the West Indies, and which to him are daily and constantly the source of much injury, vexation, and expense. That in order to comply with these restrictions, and in consequence of the new and important changes made in the Distillery laws of 1825, the distillers, in altering and remodelling their premises, have been compelled, without any corresponding advantage to themselves, to expend more than half a million; to uphold which their annual charge for waste and capital, and wear and tear have been greatly augmented and which, if the trade were to be overthrown, would prove nearly a total loss. They state that this alone, which cannot be met by any corresponding disadvantage on the part of the Colonies would entitle them to the protection of your Lordships. That by the trade of the Corn distillers alone the consumption of Corn in the United Kingdom has arrived at 1,400,000 quar-

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ters annually, thereby affording a ready and sure market for all descriptions of inferior or damaged Grain which is unfit for malting. During the present season Barley of this description, to the extent of many hundred thousand quarters, has found a vent through this channel, which, under other circumstances, must have been left useless in the hands of the grower, the quantity of damaged Bailey this year being more than could have been consumed through the usual channels in which such a description of Corn is sold. They therefore urge if the proposed increase of 1 s. per gallon on Corn Spirits should be made without a corresponding increase on Rum, the consumption of Corn Spirits in England will be completely superseded by the introduction of Rum." His Lordship then proceeded to say, that in the year 1825 the noble Lord opposite, after taking considerable pains to obtain an accurate knowledge of every fact connected with the manufacture of Rum and Corn Spirits, had adopted what he believed was an equitable principle of dealing with each commodity. The noble Viscount reduced all the old duties, and settled the sum of 1s. 6d. per gallon as the proportion of preference which Corn Spirits ought to have over Rum in the payment of duty. Now the first question to be asked was, whether any thing had since occurred to take away two-thirds of the allowance which had been deliberately, and, he repeated, after the most just and mature consideration, allowed to British Corn Spirits. The petitioners, after enumerating the advantages which Rum had, from the manner in which it could be compounded and rectified, and from its general use in the navy, stated with truth that Rum was imported already in a perfect state, and prepared for prompt use, while British Spirits must be rectified and compounded before their use. This they estimated as equal to a tax upon them of 6d.—some say 10 d.—a gallon; but, at all events, 8d. was a fair medium. They were likewise subject,—and this to him appeared a most important ingredient in the consideration of their case—to the operation of the Corn-laws. The distillers could not buy foreign corn without paying the high duties which were imposed upon the article for the protection of home agriculture; this, at least, affected them to the amount of 1s. a gallon, making 1s. 8d. in these two branches alone. The English distiller was likewise obliged to
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use in his manufacture a considerable quantity of malt on which he had to pay duty; while in Scotland a malt drawback was allowed. 9,000,000 of gallons, or something more, was the quantity of Spirits distilled in Scotland, a portion of which (for it could not all be consumed there) must find its way into England. Reverting to the arrangement of 1825, it was important to consider that upon the faith of its permanency the distillers had expended above 250,000 l. upon alterations which were imposed upon them by the arrangements then made. Some idea might be formed of the degree to which they were exposed to restrictions from this simple fact,—that the Acts of 1825 was accompanied with sixty-two folio pages of regulations, exposing the distiller at every step to the risk of heavy penalties, from which no man's memory or care could enable him constantly to protect himself; and from all these the manufacturer of Rum was free. The respectable individuals who had petitioned would be most willing to compound for a payment of 6d. a gallon to get rid of these irritating and dangerous, as well as unnecessary restrictions. The items he had alluded to made the advantages in favour of the manufacturer of Rum equal to 2s. 1d., but to be quite within the mark he would say 2s. After glancing at these details, he would beg leave to impress upon their Lordships his own general view of the subject. The distillers were of great importance to the British agriculturist, inasmuch as they were consumers of Corn, to an extent of 1,400,000 quarters, and this, too, of a quality for which no other market presented itself, and not adapted for any other use. There had been, not long since, two bad seasons, and the agriculturist derived great advantage from the sale of that kind of corn to the distiller which would have been otherwise useless; and more especially as they were shut out from the purchase of the article of foreign growth. He felt much for the distress of the West-India interest, and would do all in his power to alleviate it; but if that interest turned round, and said they had no protection like the Corn-laws, he should be compelled to reply, that these colonial interests were not without restrictions upon rivals in trade; they had restrictions for their coffee, and against the East Indian sugars. If he were in the confidence of the West-Indian interests, he should not

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be disposed to recommend them to take the additional duty upon Corn Spirits as a boon for their relief: it would be found in practice quite inadequate, and when in a year or two they next appealed to the Treasury for some more solid protection, they would be told they had received it already, and would be referred to the present intended measure. Instead, then, of having relief doled out to them in this inadequate way, he would recommend them to call for the more substantial assistance of some advantages for their sugars, by means of which they would get them cheaper into the market. The price of the article was 23 s. per cwt., the duly was 27 s., and not an ad valorem one, but the same on every description of sugars, high and low; and as tea was now a necessary of life used by the poor, while its flavour required sugar, the cheapness of the latter would greatly increase the consumption, and be received as a great boon by these classes of society, who had, he regretted to say, little to spare. Then, again, sec the effect of tampering with Spirits instead of sugar; smuggling would probably be revived by the increase of 14 per cent on the article; it might just amount to a sum sufficient to turn the scale for the smuggler. He (Lord Malmesbury) lived in a part of the country once much troubled in this way, but now happily improved by the establishment of the Preventive Service. If, however, now 50 l. or 60 l. could be made upon the smuggling of 1,000 gallons of Spirits, the illegal trade would revive, and bring back with it all its dreadful demoralizing attendants which were formerly so revolting. He ought to say, that the distillers would not object to the additional duty, provided it were equally laid upon Rum: he, for his own part, wished the duty was levied on both, for then there would be a chance of diminishing the consumption of ardent Spirits, which was, he knew, a great evil to the community. At all events, he trusted that a change so important to the petitioners, and involving consequences so serious to agriculture, would not be imposed without a previous investigation into the whole circumstances of the case.
Lord Goderichsaid, that he was ready to give every information in his power, not only to the petitioners, who were most interested, but with reference to the general principles of policy which were involved in the topics which had been touched upon.
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In order to explain the principle upon which he had, while in office, acted, when he proposed the alteration of the law respecting these duties, he would state, that in the origin it became necessary to endeavour to take some very decided step to put an end to illicit distillation in Ireland and Scotland, the mischievous consequences of which could only be adequately known to persons residing in the neighbourhood, and to others whose attention was especially called to such occurrences. In Ireland, at the time, it produced something like a civil war between the King's troops and the people, in consequence of the attempts to detect and seize those who were engaged in the illicit trade. In the hope of mitigating that state of things, the duties had been changed twenty times, and the most severe, oppressive, and unconstitutional laws were enacted to abate the evil. All these proved unsuccessful, and the only policy which remained to be tried was that of a great reduction of duty to an amount, that, by withdrawing the obvious motive of the smuggler, would put an end to his traffic, and the train of misery which it upheld. The duty on Corn Spirits was, at the time, he believed, 5s. or 6s. a gallon; in 1823 it was reduced to 2s. 10 d. This reduction had its inevitable result of putting an end to the practice of smuggling. But it was then equally clear that a reduction of the duties on British Spirits became necessary, or there would infallibly arise a smuggling of Spirits from Ireland and Scotland, where the duties had been lowered, into England, where they remained at the same rate. The great difficulty was, to ascertain upon what principle the great reduction of duties should be governed. The subject was surrounded with intricacy, and beset with conflicting difficulties; in the two countries there were not only different duties, but a totally different system of managing them. Irish or Scotch Spirits were totally prohibited in the British market; they could not be drunk without an utter violation of the law, the consequence of which was, that when the subject underwent consideration as a whole, it became absolutely necessary to alter the whole frame of the English distillery laws. In the year 1824, the West-India interests were represented, and he believed truly, to be labouring under great difficulties; one great cause was stated to be the inadequately remunerating market they had

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for Rum, and it was represented that if they could obtain access to the English market, they might then, with the sale of their Rum, make up for the undoubted loss they sustained upon their sugars. The duty on Rum was then 1s. 8d. or 2s. more than the nominal duty on British Spirits. In 1824, he had, while a Member of the other House of Parliament, proposed an alteration of the scale of these Spirit duties. He proceeded then on the principle that the subjects of his Majesty's Colonies were entitled to the same considerate protection as those at home; but it was not till the year 1825 that he was enabled to consolidate the system now sought to be altered; and he thought he had done so upon fair and equitable principles. Two rates of duties were proposed to his consideration, one of 2s. by the English distillers, and one of 1s. by the West-India interest, who said it was all they could well bear. Under those circumstances he conceived he adopted a fair rate when he fixed on 1s. 6d., which was what he might call a split between them. This reduction, as he need not inform their Lordships, was not well received by some parties, who supposed—as he thought at the time, and still thought—quite erroneously, that their interests would be affected by it. It was said that the Revenue, for example, would be injured. Now he at the time expressed his opinion, that the increase of consumption consequent upon a reduced duty would prevent the Revenue suffering to the extent contemplated by some noble Lords in that House, and by other high authorities elsewhere, and he found that he was more than borne out in the sequel. The falling-off in the Revenue, consequent upon the reduction of duty, had been estimated at 600,000 l., but he contended that the increased consumption would prevent its being more than half that; and what was the result? Why, more favourable than even he, whose sanguine views had been animadverted upon, had ventured to predict. The falling-off of the Revenue was not, in 1828, more than 200,000 l., and last year it was still less, so that no censure, in fairness, could be attributed to his arrangement, so far at least as loss to the Revenue was concerned. No doubt he stated at the time, that if it appeared that the rate which he had fixed upon was objectionable, and that circumstances recommended its being changed,
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he would not oppose a change, but it was not shown to be objectionable, and therefore he contended there was no ground for departing from his arrangement. Then, with respect to what had fallen from his noble friend respecting a different rate of duty in England and the sister countries, he agreed that too great a difference would only act as a stimulus to the ingenuity of smugglers—a stimulus which, by the way, was by no means necessary, as he might easily convince their Lordships, were he to state to them the sometimes ludicrous stratagems by which those gentlemen endeavoured to elude the law. But though a difference of duty operated thus in encouraging smuggling, he could not readily believe that an increased duty of 6d. on Spirits in Scotland and Ireland would have that effect. He could not, however, speak positively on this point, for want of sufficient data; but it was his opinion, and almost his conviction. If the arrangement against which his noble friend's petition and his accompanying remarks were directed, was intended as a benefit to the West-India interest, he must say, that he could not anticipate much benefit to that body from it, at the same time that he could not admit, with his noble friend, that it would be of no advantage at all to the dealers in Rum. He conceived that a certain quantity of British Spirits would be displaced by the increased consumption of Rum that would be occasioned by the intended change in the rate of duty, and by the amount of that increase would the West-India interest be benefitted. While he stated this, he begged leave to say, however, that he agreed with his noble friend, that a far greater benefit would arise, both to the West-India interest and to the public, from a change in the duty on another staple production of the West Indies—Sugar. His noble friend, when arguing against the reduction of the duty on Rum, assumed it too readily that the difference would go into the West-India proprietors' pocket. This could not be the case: if it Were so, he need not say that the public would be no gainers by the change; and the West-India body would have neither more nor less than a bonus or bounty on their commodities. The fact, however, was, that so far as the consumption of Rum would be increased, would that interest be benefitted, and no further. A great benefit, however, would arise from a

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reduction—a considerable reduction—of the duty on Sugar, and from equalizing the duties on that from the East as well as from our West India Colonies. By such an arrangement, both interests would be benefitted, the revenue not injured, and the public would be considerable gainers.
The Earl of Malmesburyhad no objection to conferring a benefit on the West-India interest, if a fair case were made out to warrant it; but he must protest against it being made in the way of a bonus to that interest at the expense of others. Let any measure of relief to the West-India Body be brought forward in a direct manner, and not as in the present indirect way, and he should give it his best consideration. He thought, however, that that body had no great reason to complain, so far as the consumption of Rum was concerned; for he found that that consumption had increased 55-per-cent since 1825.
Petition laid on the Table.

EAST-RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
On the Motion of the Marquis of Salisbury, the examination of witnesses on this Bill was resumed.
[George Paltryman deposed, that forty guineas was the regular price of two votes at the elections of East Retford.
Thomas Appleby gave testimony to a similar effect. In the year 1812, he received ten guineas for his vote; in 1818, two packets were transmitted to him, containing twenty guineas each, and subsequent to the election of 1820, two packets, with similar contents were left at his house, as he understood, in consideration of his vote.
Samuel Buckstone stated, that he was promised ten guineas in 1812, on condition that he would vote for Mr. Osbaldeston. At two several times he received twenty guineas for his vote upon subsequent Occasions.]
In reference to some questions which were put by Lord Durham to the last witness,
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that it was contrary to the usage of the House for any noble Lord to interrogate a witness while sitting. He thought that a deviation from the customary practice induced a conventional tone and manner which tended to tender an examination so conducted inaudible in a remote part of the House.
Lord Durhamstated, in reply, that he believed it was competent for him to cross-
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examine a witness in whatever posture he pleased. If not, he was willing to acquiesce in the custom of the House; but with respect to "tone and manner," the noble Lord who corrected him was certainly the last person whom he should be disposed to set up as a pattern for imitation.
The Lord Chancellordecided, that it was not irregular to put incidental questions, while sitting, although, in a formal examination, it was usual for noble Lords to stand.
[William Hodson, the next witness, gave evidence to a similar effect, stating, that he had received forty guineas at each of the elections in 1818 and 1820.]
Further consideration of the question postponed till to-morrow.