Lords Sitting of 1 April 1830

MINUTES.
Returns Presented. Account of the weekly amount of Wheat purchased in the Markets of Liverpool and Manchester; with weekly Returns of Wheat from Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, and Warrington. Account of the number of Vessels which had passed the Sound during 1829.
Lord STANLEY, General GASCOYNE, Sir T. ACLAND, and Mr. BASTARD, brought up a Bill for amending the Liverpool Harbour and Pocks, together with several other Private Bills, to which the House of Commons had agreed; all of which were read a first time.
Petitions Presented. By the Earl of DERBY, from the Owners of Victualling Houses in Great and Little Bolton, Lancashire against any alteration in the Licensing System, By the same noble Lord, from the Protestant Dissenters of Hanover-street Chapel, Pall-mall Chapel, Cockspur-street Chapel, and twenty other Meeting-house Congregations in Liverpool, praying for the abolition of Burning of Widows in India, and other unchristian practices—By the Bishop of Chester, similar Petitions from Congregations of Dissenters at Rochdale and Bretherton. By Lord KING, against the Com Laws, from the inhabitants of Kidderminster. By Earl GOWER, from Newcastle-under-Lyme. and other places in Staffordshire, praying that the Trade to China, might be thrown open. By the same noble Lord, from Shelton, Burslem, and other places, for the abolition of Slavery. And by Lord HOLLAND, from Protestant Dissenting Congregations at Over-Darwen, Lancashire, against the Burning of Hindoo Widows; and also for throwing open the Trade to China.— Referred to the Committee on East-Indian affairs.
Returns Ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of MALMESBURY, of Commitments and Criminal Convictions, in the different counties of Ireland during the last seven years; and also of the different counties of Scotland.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
Lord Kingsaid, he had been intrusted with a Petition respecting the Administration of Justice in this country, which for several reasons was entitled to an attentive and serious consideration. It was most numerously signed, and by persons of the highest respectability, resident in the metropolis. Amongst the signatures would be found that of the most eminent lawyer at the Irish bar, (Mr. O'Connell) and the peti-

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tion, he was given to understand, had been drawn up by the celebrated author of the "Fragment on Government," and of the "Defence of Usury,"(Mr. Jeremy Bentham), whose knowledge of jurisprudence was so eminently conspicuous in his writings. The terms in which this document was couched, furnished abundant internal evidence of its literary parentage, as the style which distinguished the writer's former productions was discoverable throughout. It set forth, that the petitioners, when they sought for information concerning (he legal Administration of Justice in England, were referred to the Statute Law and the Common Law as the sources to which they should look for wherewithal to satisfy there inquiry. They found, however, on examination, that the Statute Law covered more letter-press than it was possible to lift, and that the Common Law was sufficient to fill libraries not capable of being contained within that House. The noble Lord concluded with expressing his own opinion, that a proper division of labour in the Administration of Justice, would be found to produce as beneficial a result as the adoption of the principle had already effected in the mechanical arts and manufactures; the facilities which it afforded in the interesting process of pin-making sufficiently attested the practical advantages which would generally accrue from a division of labour.
Petition laid on the Table.

IRELAND.—DUTY ON COALS.
The Marquis of Angleseysaid, he should solicit the attention of the House, and of his Majesty's Ministers more particularly, to a Petition which he had the honour to present from the inhabitants of the parish of St. Catherine, Dublin, signed by 111 Merchants, Manufacturers, and Traders of that City, praying for a remission of the duty on Coals imported into Ireland. That such a petition should have been intrusted to him was matter of regret, as he could not, without pain to himself, and without risk of his health, address their Lordships at any length upon the subject, whereas other noble Lords would have been more efficient in its advocacy, although none could be move sincere in zeal. It ought to be recollected that Ireland had not the advantage of those inexhaustible collieries which this country enjoyed, as the ablest engineers had given it as their opinion that in Ireland, though not destitute of Coals, the Coal-mines were scarce, and that the fuel
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which they produced was of bad quality, and for the most part unfit for consumption. With the knowledge of this fact ever before them, it appeared to him to be their duty in point of policy alone, to give every encouragement to the importation of Coal from Great Britain into Ireland. It would be in the highest degree advantageous to themselves that a material should thus be transferred to that country, which would furnish the means of employment to its idle population. Of the Irish people he would venture from experience to assert, that a more industrious or ingenious race, who were anxious to obtain honest bread by the sweat of their brow, was not to be found under the sun. There was no measure for the remission of this tax, he believed, at present under the consideration of Government: but he could not conceive what possible objection could be suggested, except only the reduction of the Revenue to the extent to which this tax had increased it. But the repeal of the duty he had no doubt would create, even within a single year, such a stimulus to the manufacturing interest of the country, that all the advantage so lost would be recovered. The amount of the tax on the importation of Coal was but 50,000 l., and a substitute for that sum could be very easily procured. He would propose one which he had turned in his own mind, and was satisfied that it might be adopted without inconvenience. They could make a reduction to that amount from the public payment made for the constabulary force, and fix it on the counties, which would be responsible for their respective proportions to supply the deficiency of the Revenue, which would be occasioned by abolishing the duty on Coals. He moreover felt assured, from the manner in which the people had gone on since the bestowal of the great been which had been last year conferred on them, that the counties would not long have to endure this additional burthen, as the constabulary force might very soon be considerably reduced. Great as that been was on all hands admitted to have been, it was impossible that it could have done all for Ireland which the circumstances of Ireland required. It certainly appeared that the interests of their Irish fellow-subjects had been entirely overlooked throughout the whole of those arrangements which a Minister of the Crown had lately announced in another place. By the reductions pro-

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posed, Ireland would benefit only to the amount of the 50,000 l. annually which the repeal of the Leather duty remitted, while there was an increase of duty on Spirits of not less than 150,000 l.; and an additional tax was likewise imposed upon Stamps; so that whilst this country, in consideration of its distresses, was relieved to the amount of 3,500,000 l, the people of Ireland were told that their burthens, which aggrieved them but too much before, were to be increased by 100,000 l. annually. The present Petition was the first which had been brought before the Legislature, but he had reason to believe that many of a similar nature were in preparation. Of this he was most certain—the been prayed for, if conferred, would be received with the gratitude which constituted a proverbial characteristic of the people.
Petition read and laid on the Table.

TITHES.
The Marquis of Anglesey, presented a Petition from certain landowners in Wexford, against the present Tithe-system, as it existed in Ireland. The Petitioners complained of the hardship of being compelled to pay the ministers of a Church with which they had no connection, and from which they derived no benefit. The Tithe-system in Ireland was of no use, as the petitioners thought, except to enable the Clergy of the Established Church to wallow in wealth, luxury, and extravagance, inconsistent with their Christian profession. The system, as it operated in Ireland, had also a most mischievous effect on the morals of the people, for it was the source of many assassinations and other crimes.
The Petition laid on the Table.

DISTRESS.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellspresented a Petition from Shepton Mallet, complaining of Distress, and praying for Relief. The right rev. Prelate supported the prayer of the Petition, and vouched for the correctness of its statements. By every principle of humanity and justice that House was bound, he said, to institute an inquiry into the causes of the distress, for the legislature should treat the people as a father would treat his children, Sound policy also demanded it, for by doing so, the legislature would earn the gratitude of the people. It was impossible for any language of his to do justice to the heroic fortitude with which they had submitted to their distress;
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uttering no sound of complaint, and being guilty of no breach of the law. Their conduct strengthened their claims to be heard, and he could not conceive it possible that an inquiry by their Lordships should not lead to some means of giving them relief. Such a supposition was a satire upon legislature. He had, on a former occasion, presented a similar petition to their Lordships, and had accompanied it by a statement of the distress which existed in his own immediate neighbourhood, and sorry he was to observe, that there the distress was unabated. He felt it his duty to be on the spot, to do what an individual could to relieve the distress; but he must say, it required a more powerful arm than his.
Petition laid on the Table.
Earl Beauchamppresented a Petition from Worcester, signed by 2,800 persons, complaining of Distress, and praying for a revision of the Currency, and Parliamentary Reform.
Earl Stanhopebore testimony to the general existence of the distress complained of, and read extracts from a letter, which, he said, was written by one of the cleverest men he was acquainted with, to justify his opinion. One-third of the unentailed estates in Scotland, he was informed, might be found in the market; and Scotland, instead of being prosperous, as had been stated, was in great distress. The people about Glasgow, he was informed, were living chiefly on provisions imported from Ireland; and on a line of road near Berwick, there were several estates unoccupied. The distress at Leeds had been denied in the teeth of a petition signed by 50,000 persons; and the writer of the letter informed him, that the statements of that petition were too true. The increase of Tolls, which had been quoted in another place as a sign of prosperity, had no foundation; in fact, during the last four years the Tolls in the neighbourhood of Birmingham had decreased from 3,990 l. to 2,809 l. The increase which had been referred to of licensed traders, was also a proof of distress; for people who could not live by their usual business took out licenses to sell tea and tobacco, in the hopes of eking out their scanty means of subsistence. As to Birmingham not being distressed, the number of paupers who received relief in January 1829, was 2,103, and in January last, 3,276, being an increase of 1,173.

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Much of this distress was undoubtedly owing to the want of protection, by which the English artizan was exposed to foreign competition. He had never attributed, however, the distress of the country to Free Trade exclusively: it resulted, he had no doubt, from a combination of causes, of which the Currency appeared to him the principal cause, judging as he did from the universality of depression which had existed since the operation of the bill of 1819. The noble Earl then took a brief review of the state of the currency between 1774 and Mr. Peel's bill of 1819, contending that before that measure was passed, silver was always the standard of value, and that that measure was founded in delusion; that none of those who were advocates for a return to a metallic currency had contemplated that it would occasion a depression of more than four or five percent in prices; that Mr. Ricardo had stated, that if the return to a metallic currency should produce a depression of twelve per cent, the attempt would be one of great peril; but if he could contemplate such a reduction as twenty-five per cent, from a return to a metallic currency, he should consider the attempt an act of insanity. The noble Earl, after pointing out a variety of ways by which the defects of the present system might be remedied, the principal of which were making silver at its present standard a legal tender to any amount, and allowing the issue of a small-note circulation by licensed bankers, they giving security cither in land or bullion for the amount of paper issued, proceeded to state, that in France, in Austria, and Prussia, the governments had given encouragement to paper issues, by which great benefit had been derived to those countries. In France, a bank on the Scotch principle had been established, which issued notes for 20-francs; and in Prussia the government had issued notes of the value of 5s. These measures had been productive of great benefit, and nothing, he contended, could relieve the distress of this country but some similar measures. He hoped that their Lordships would have an opportunity at no distant day of discussing the currency question at length, for it was impossible that it could be suffered to rest. His Lordship moved that the Petition be laid on the Table.
The Marquis of Butedenied that distress existed so generally in the country as the noble Earl (Stanhope) seemed to
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believe. There was distress he admitted, but neither so severe nor so general as was said; and wherever he went he heard from every one who spoke of the state of the country, that "the worst was past." With respect to Scotland, he could state, from his own knowledge, that the condition of the labouring poor was not so bad as many had represented, and he must deny that one-third of the unentailed estates of that country were in the market for sale. He admitted that the number of estates at present offered for sale in Scotland was greater than usual, because land was a better medium of investment there than in England, and a considerable amount of British capital was employed in that way. The reason why so many were in the market together was this,—that those about, to become purchasers were advised to wait, to try whether a lower price than at present demanded might not be accepted.
Earl Stanhope, in reply, said no doubt land was a better mode of investment in Scotland; but it was not a little singular that, under those circumstances, so large a number of landed proprietors in that country should be anxious to sell their estates. He repeated there was great distress in the country, and in one county (Worcester) there existed great irritation and exasperation amongst the lower orders against the higher, and if some remedy was not found to remove the distress, that exasperation would increase to an extent to be dreaded.
Petition to he on the Table.

POOR-LAWS (SCOTLAND.)
Lord Napierbrought in a Bill for the better regulation of the Poor Laws in Scotland. The noble Lord said, as some misunderstanding-existed with respect to the object of this Bill, he wished to state, that there was nothing whatever in it subversive of the fundamental principle of the Scotch system of Poor-laws. He had brought in a bill on the subject last Session, but had since remodelled the whole; and introduced a variety of improvements.
Bill read a first time, and to be printed.