HL Deb 01 May 1828 vol 19 cc239-60
The Earl of Darnley

then rose to bring forward the motion, of which he had given notice, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the State of the Distressed Population of Ireland. He was aware that he could command but little attention from their lordships, even on a subject of the greatest importance; but he felt, on the present occasion, that he laboured under much greater difficulties than usual, and nothing short of a sense of paramount duty, could induce him to trespass on their lordships' attention. Among the difficulties under which he laboured was that of bringing the leading features of the subject under their lordships' notice without fatiguing them with extraneous matter. He had other disadvantages also to contend against; one of which was, the load of prejudices which were engendered by the abuses of the Poor-laws in this country, which were carried to such an excess, that the very mention of the system was likely to expose him to more warmth than the occasion required. He deprecated as anxiously as any man any extension of that reprobated system; and he hoped he should be able to appease the anger of his noble friend (the earl of Limerick) when he stated, that it was far from his intention to recommend the English system of Poor-laws, as applied here at present, or even as founded on the original intention of the statute of Elizabeth. He was aware that by that statute, two objects were contemplated; one of which was to find employment for those poor persons who were able to work, but could not otherwise obtain it than by applying to the parish. He was of opinion, that if any thing like this proposition was extended to Ireland, the consequence would be, that in the present unfortunate state of that country, the whole of the rental would be insufficient to meet that object. With that opinion, he had no idea of recommending a system of poor-laws, by which any assessment could be made to enable the parishes to set to work the people who might be in want of subsistence. But there was another object contemplated by the statute of Elizabeth, namely, the relief of the "lame, impotent, old, and blind, and such others being poor and not being able to work." If, in the course of his address, he was able to prove, that the same description of people in Ireland were in great numbers in a state of utter destitution; that cases occurred daily, in which life even was sacrificed for want of an established provision for the poor, he hoped their lordships would agree with him, that it was incumbent upon them to institute some inquiry into this important subject.—He had been told, and with some degree of truth, that the situation of these persons had been already under inquiry before committees of both Houses of parliament. He was ready to admit this; for it was impossible that any committee could inquire into the state of Ireland, without having their attention called to the destitute and miserable condition of the peasantry; but hitherto it had only formed a subject of inquiry incidentally. It had not come before the com- mittees eo intuitu, but merely as a branch of the general investigation in which they were engaged. It appeared to him, that the humanity of the public in this country had been too much directed to another class of sufferers! What speeches had not their lordships heard there and elsewhere! What volumes had been circulated on the misery of the slave-population of the West Indies! These friends of humanity were, indeed, so urgent with the claims of the negroes, that they overlooked the injustice likely to accrue to private property, and he was satisfied, that their premature endeavours to meliorate the condition of the slaves, instead of producing any beneficial result, would be the source of the greatest possible misfortunes to all the parties interested in that question.—He would therefore beg leave to call the attention of their lordships to the distresses of a numerous class of persons much nearer home, and much dearer to this country than any slave population abroad. God forbid he should undervalue the blessings of liberty! The Irish peasantry were certainly in possession of that inestimable blessing; but otherwise they were in a worse situation than the slave in the West Indies. Their wretchedness was more squalid; their houses, their clothes, and their food, were worse than; those of any population on the surface of the globe. No doubt this wretched people had the liberty of propagating their race. They had the liberty also of locomotion, of which they availed themselves to a pretty large extent. Now, he wished particularly to draw noble lords attention to this part of the subject. A noble earl (Limerick) had told them, that he drew all his resources from Ireland. Now his (lord Darnley's) means were drawn nearly equally from the two countries; but he spoke advisedly, when he protested, that unless there was a great amelioration in the condition of the Irish population, if the wish lately uttered by a gallant admiral (sir J. Yorke) were accomplished, that Ireland were submerged, in the ocean, he should be in a much better situation, in reference; to his income, than he should be if measures of improvement were not taken with regard to that country.—When he was drawn aside to this digression, he was stating that the liberty of locomotion remained to the Irish peasantry; and they exercised it daily more and more, to the injury of the people of this country. He was anxious to have ascertained the number of passengers brought to England from Ireland during the last three years. He had found, however, that it was almost impossible to obtain such a return. But their lordships would, no doubt, take it for granted, that there was an excessive influx of Irish into this country, by means of the steam-vessels. If the emigration to this country rapidly increased as he feared it would, unless prevented, the inevitable consequence would be, the amalgamation of the misery of the two countries. The Irish peasantry would find their way to England, and live on the English poor-rates, and the consequence would be, that they would undersell the English peasant in his only commodity—labour, in his own market, and by lowering the rate of wages, reduce him to the same state of misery that prevailed through Ireland. In the report of the emigration committee, this opinion was stated very strongly; and it was supported by the evidence taken before the committee of inquiry into the state of Ireland. It was satisfactorily shewn by that report, that no other result could ensue from the continuation of the present state of things, but the permanent deterioration of the price of English and Scotch labour: that the daily increased communication between the two shores could not be viewed without alarm: that the numbers removing from Ireland were constantly on the increase, and that a great change must follow in the character of the labouring classes in this country: that it was clear, that two such different states could not co-exist in the two countries, and that one of two results was unavoidable; either the condition of the Irish peasantry must be raised to that of the English, or the condition of the English peasantry must be depressed to that of the Irish. The same opinion had been expressed in various publications; one of which he held in his hand. He alluded to the "Letters on the State of Ireland," by Dr. Elmore, who had attempted to establish a manufactory in that country; but, for want of security, was obliged to withdraw his capital. This gentleman had done him the honour to address the letters to him, and in so doing, had paid him a compliment he was conscious he did not deserve. Though he did not agree in some of the propositions in these letters, he recommended the pamphlet to the attention of their lordships, as containing a great deal of useful information. The noble earl read the following passage:— The irresistible tide of emigration from Ireland towards these countries has already set in, and has been materially facilitated by steam navigation, so much so that the credulity of the most ignorant will soon be convinced that six or seven millions of people, with all their natural powers and great energies of mind, will not much longer suffer without making an effort to find better quarters. Every year it is ascertained, that increasing thousands are coming over, and in a short time it is to be apprehended that, driven by want, and aided as they now are by the subscriptions of the richer classes in Ireland, they will come over in hordes, like the Goths and Vandals of other times, and make a settlement in this country, where they hope their labour will be duly rewarded, and from which no act of parliament will be able to dislodge them. By competition for employment they will defeat every humane effort, to keep up the present condition of the labourers of England. Their necessities will oblige them to work for half the usual wages of labour in this country; the English workman must either work for the same rate, or he will not get employment; he is thus thrown on the poor-rates for parish allowance, and in this way is the burthen of supporting the Irish poor put upon the parishes. It would inevitably happen, if this system went on, that the rent of the Irish landlord would be paid out of the English poor-rates. He, as an Irish landlord, did not wish for any such result; but speaking as he ought to do when addressing their lordships, who were almost all landed proprietors, and whether in England or Ireland, all equally interested in this part of the question, he would say, it was established beyond all doubt, that a communication equal to a bridge was now existing between the two countries. It was quite impossible, therefore, unless they raised the Irish peasantry to the level of the English, that an amalgamation of misery should not take place between them. He believed the only remedy in their lordships' power was to endeavour, if they could possibly do it, to raise the Irish peasantry to the condition of the English; but, as he had already stated, he had no intention to recommend any assessment on the landed property of Ireland to give the poor employment. Yet the, condition of that part of the population of Ireland was exceedingly wretched—their distress was so abject, that they were reduced to the lowest stage of degradation of which human nature was capable. It defied any powers he possessed to make their lordships acquainted with the extent of the misery of a large proportion of the Irish poor.—The noble earl then read several extracts from the evidence of Dr. Doyle before the committee of the House of Commons, detailing the wretched condition of the lower orders of the people in his diocese. The noble earl said, he might also make quotations from the works of Wilson and others, on this subject; but it would be disgusting, he apprehended, to their lordships to enter into further particulars of the wretched state of the great mass of the Irish population. Their lordships had heard it described by persons the best acquainted with the facts. The Irish peasantry were not now suffering the extremity of distress. They were enjoying their halcyon days; for a man and his wife now lived for three farthings a day. In the county of Limerick, a stone of potatoes might be purchased for three farthings; and in addition, it fortunately happened that the price of bacon was very high. The Irish labourer could not only live well by the plenty of potatoes; but he could sell the pig he fattened on them at a high price. These, therefore, were the best of times for him. Their lordships had, doubtless, all heard the old story of the Irish peasant, who told his visitor who objected to the presence of the pig in the house, that he had the best right to be there, as he paid the rent. It was notorious that the Irish peasantry paid their rents and taxes by the sale of their pigs.—He came, then, to consider what remedy should be applied to the evil. Government had, to a certain degree, given their sanction to the only means of relief that had yet been suggested. That emigration, if it could be carried into effect, might produce some partial relief, he would not deny. But it appeared to him, that the system of emigration recommended by the committee of the House of Commons was more likely to be advantageous to this country than to Ireland. It might operate, and he believed it had operated, in certain parishes, to relieve the pressure of the poor-rates. It had done so in Sussex and also in Kent. He had been informed by a respectable magistrate of that county, that by means of a loan he had advanced on; the poor-rates of one of the parishes, the Vestry had been enabled to export no less than eighty individuals. This was the case of an agricultural parish, not very populous, on the borders of Sussex. The effect had been, that the parish was now enabled to maintain its poor with case, and give them constant employment; while it was making provision to repay the advance on its poor-rates. But when he came to consider what was the recommendation of the committee, and contrasted it with the amount of the population of Ireland, it was evidently futile. The utmost extent of the recommendation of the committee was, that at the expense of 1,140,000l., in three years, there might be exported only ninety-six thousand individuals, men, women, and children. Now the population of Ireland was not less than eight millions. Assuming it had increased to that number, six millions were probably in the state of distress he had described. He would take it, however, at seven millions, and would suppose that five millions only were unemployed poor. Suppose, then, the emigration scheme were applied to Ireland, what would be the result? That in three years, a fiftieth part would be removed. Could anybody doubt that the vacancy caused by the removal of these persons would be immediately filled up? On this part of the subject he would refer to the publication of Mr. Sadler, on Ireland. From the extract he would read, their lordships would find that, by a law, which it was impossible to control, the increase of population took place in an increasing ratio, as the numbers of the people diminished; and it followed, that the more they unpeopled Ireland, the more rapidly the population would increase: — "Ireland, therefore, is no exception to the true principle of human exercise—a principle which, no more than the one that it opposes, can ever remain inert, and, like that, may be 'known by its fruits.' It dictates to the feelings, and prompts, the exertions, of all who receive it. Demonstrably true, even as it respects Ireland, so it holds forth the most instructive lesson as it regards that country. It teaches those who have to do with its affairs, or who wish to dictate to and intermeddle with those that have, a far surer, as well as happier method, of serving and blessing that country, than either transporting the people, driving them from their farms, deserting them in their distresses, or di- minishing their numbers by any plans of cruelty or oppression, ancient or modern. It proves the utter futility of all such attempts, and that the law of nature is universal; the same as it respects the Irish, and, indeed, all other people, as it was with the Israelites, who 'the more they were afflicted, the more they multiplied and grew;' and that the way of diminishing the fecundity of the Irish, is not by the creation of vacuums but by replenishing those already made, by the deserters and enemies of their country. As this true principle of human increase is understood and prevails, feelings of confidence in an all-sufficient Providence will be strengthened; and of cordial affection for our fellow creatures revived; and benevolence no longer paralysed by the influences of the contrary theory, will renew its wonted exertions in behalf of human beings, in the way God and nature have heretofore dictated and blessed. Even policy itself may at length be pleased to think, that what it never can, and nature perpetually does, regulate, may be regulated for the best; and dropping its dread of population, concede at length, that to do justly and love mercy, is the best and safest course for nations, as well as individuals; and that the surest way to preserve a people in peace and quietness, is to give them a permanent interest in the institutions of their country."

In corroboration of this principle, the noble earl stated a series of calculations, by which it appeared, that in the province of Ulster, where the population of Ireland was most dense, the number of inhabitants to every square mile being two hundred and fifty-one, the population from 1813 to 1821, had increased at the rate of eleven per cent; in Leinster, the next in density, the number to each square mile was two hundred and sixteen, and the rate of increase sixteen per cent; in Munster, the number to each square mile was two hundred and four, and the rate of increase twenty per cent; and in Connaught, the least in density, the number to each square mile was one hundred and sixty-two, and the rate of increase twenty-eight per cent. The making of roads and bridges was a mode of employing the population to a certain extent; but it must always be very partial in its effect. Neither did he consider it was much in the power of government to give relief to the unemployed poor. It must be sought from other sources. It was however in the power of individuals to do something; and he was quite sure that every noble lord who had property and influence in Ireland would see the necessity of spending some part of his income, in alleviating the misery of that part of the population who were upon his estate. The only way in which this misery could be effectually alleviated was, by giving occasional employment to those who were unable to procure it for themselves. It was notorious to every one who was acquainted with Ireland, that an overwhelming proportion of her population was totally without employment between sowing and harvest. This was a permanent evil, and totally distinct from those dreadful scenes which they had all witnessed in times of scarcity. But he had stated, that the only remedy for Ireland was to give employment to her population; and the only means by which this could be effected was the diffusion of capital throughout the country. It was anticipated by all those who advocated the Union, that the diffusion of capital throughout Ireland would be one of the consequences of that measure. But they had been disappointed; and why? Because Mr. Pitt had never been able to carry another measure, which there could be no doubt he contemplated. It was perfectly notorious, though he had heard it contradicted in that House, that Mr. Pitt contemplated the success of that great measure; and lord Camden had expressly stated, that the settlement of the great question of the Catholic claims was one of the plans of those persons who brought about the Union. Until all religious distinctions were removed, and that question was for ever set at rest, which had been, and would continue to be, the bane of Ireland, property would be insecure in that country, and her inhabitants would remain in their present unsettled and discontented state. And what had been the result? That no capitalist in his senses would trust his money in such a country. He would not enter further into this question, but he should not have done his duty to the miserable persons whose cause he was advocating, if he had not told their lordships that, until they did away with this irritation and discontent, they could do no good for Ireland; and that the only way in which these feelings could be expelled from the minds of the people of Ireland was to grant those concessions which they had so long pleaded for in vain. Any other attempt at ameliorating the condition of Ireland would, he was convinced, be mere vanity; because any other attempt would not afford that security to property which would induce capitalists to embark their property in the country, and this was all that Ireland stood in need of. The noble lord here read the evidence of Mr. James Cropper, which was to the effect, that not only was not English capital sent to Ireland, but that Irish capital was constantly transferred to England, in consequence of the insecurity of property in the former country. The noble lord said, he had been informed, that Irish capital, amounting to between 8,000,000l. and 9,000,000l. was at that moment invested in the English funds. Mr. Cropper also stated it to be his opinion, that the distrust arising from the Catholic question was the cause of this insecurity of property in Ireland; and he himself had been informed that very day, that there were millions of English capital ready to be invested in Ireland, as soon as that question was set at rest. Were their lordships then to be told, that the poor of Ireland had no interest in a question which, if settled, would procure them employment, and the means of comfortable subsistence? He trusted that British capitalists would not go to the remote corners of the world in search of investments for their money, while Ireland, standing opposite their shores, presented more inviting means of employing it to advantage nearer home. He would not fatigue their lordships much longer; but he must endeavour to bring under their consideration the fact, that in Ireland there was a large proportion of the population able and willing to work, but altogether destitute of employment. He trusted that their lordships would not refuse an inquiry into this subject, because it was surrounded by difficulties. He confessed that there were many difficulties in the way; but then he contended, that he had made out a case so strong as to justify him in calling upon their lordships collectively as a legislative body, and individually as landed proprietors, to agree to the appointment of a committee, before whom the evidence of persons best acquainted with the subject might be taken. In a pamphlet which had been lately published, and which was entitled, "A Report to the marquis Wellesley fron Elizabeth Fry and John Joseph Gurney," it was suggested, as an expedient for the amelioration of the condition of the Irish people, that an extension of those establishments which existed in Dublin, but whose exertions had been cramped for want of funds—he meant the Mendicity associations — might be productive of much good. It was suggested, that by establishments of this nature, which should be supported by voluntary subscriptions, and aided, to a certain extent, by the government, the poor would stand some chance of being taken care of in sickness and poverty. He thought the suggestion worthy of consideration; but the point which he wished to impress upon their lordships was this—that, at present, there was no provision whatever for the poor of Ireland, except the bounty of their neighbours, and that there had been numerous instances of these unhappy persons having perished from actual starvation. The noble lord (Limerick) shaked his head, and said, that such things had happened in England; but, though such occurrences might now and then have happened in the metropolis and in towns, he defied the noble lord to show him the possibility of it happening in the country. By the evidence of Mr. J. Marshall, who had erected large works in Ireland, it appeared that hundreds flocked in to obtain employment; that many of them had not tasted food for two days; and that some of them were so weak, that he was obliged to feed them for six weeks before he could put them to work. He himself knew of a set of labourers who were put to work by subscriptions last summer; and among them there were some who were in such a state of exhaustion, from want of food, that the overseer stated that he was ashamed to set them to work.—As he had before stated, much good might be done by the due attention of the landowners, whether in or out of the country; and, if this applied to the able-bodied, did it not, in a ten-fold degree, apply to the aged and infirm? Though he had stated, and he was sure he was addressing no one who did not agree with him, that this was the duty of every landowner in the country, yet some of them did not perform that duty at all, while others performed it but very imperfectly. It was therefore his wish to see if some means could not be adopted, by which local contributions should be insisted upon from the landowners, in order to extricate their indigent fellow-creatures from destruction. He pledged himself to prove at the bar, if necessary, the misery endured at Abbeyleix, near the residence of a noble connection of his own, lord de Vesci; and he produced a paper which he styled part of the Annals of a Village, giving a detail of a number of wretched objects who had either died through want, or disease consequent upon it. These unhappy objects had been able just to crawl to the neighbourhood of that mansion, where they knew they should be relieved; but, from absolute weakness and sickness, had been unable to reach it. This state of things was not confined to one part of Ireland, for there were numbers of parishes where the inhabitants had expired in the open highway, from want of the common necessaries of life: "panem et aquam natura desiderat," but they had not even bread and water. Was it possible, then, that he was speaking in a civilized and Christian country, when, with these dreadful facts before their eyes, he was told that he was opening a shop of grievances? Why, Ireland had been a bazaar, well stocked with grievances for many years past. Was he speaking in an assembly of Christians? He had found their lordships, on a late occasion, very anxious to declare themselves Christians; and would they now see their fellow Christians starving? Would their lordships call themselves the followers of the benevolent Jesus, who taught them to feed the hungry and to clothe the naked, and who spent his whole life in going about doing good, when they refused to take this subject into their consideration, because it was opposed to the political notions of some persons? He could not believe that that House—consisting as it did of landed proprietors, many of whom derived the, comforts, the luxuries, and the elegancies which they enjoyed, from the sinews, the bones, and the marrow, of these unhappy persons—would refuse to seek a remedy for the misery which oppressed Ireland, or hesitate to agree to an inquiry, the object of which was to discover that remedy. He had been able to give but an imperfect representation of the state of this unhappy people. Did their lordships believe the representation which he had made? Then let them grant the inquiry, as the only means of providing a remedy. Did their lordships think that he over-stated the case; that he had coloured the picture too highly? Let them bring it to the test of an inquiry. In either case, he was justified in calling upon their lordships to agree to his motion. He was quite sure that their lordships would not mis-spend their time, if they made an excursion to Ireland, and judged for themselves, on the very spot, of the amount of that misery which was endured by the Irish peasants. They would see the Irish peasant vegetating in a state of existence worse than that of any other human being on the face of the earth. Oh we have ta'en Too little care of this! take physic Pomp! Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel, That thou mayest shake the superflux to them, And shew the heavens more just. The noble duke at the head of the administration had not, be was sure, forgotten the services of that people, to whom he was greatly indebted for the composition of those armies which, as a soldier, he had so often led to victory; and now that the noble duke was the prime minister of the country, surely he would leave no means untried, to alleviate their distress, or hesitate to have recourse to the measure which could alone effect permanent good to Ireland. He would now move, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of the Distressed Population of Ireland."

The Earl of Limerick

rose to oppose the motion, as he was apprehensive that the whole end and purpose of the noble lord, was to introduce the Poor-laws into Ireland; than which no measure could be more pregnant with mischief. He would appeal to the noble lords around him, many of whom were well acquainted with Ireland, whether they recognised any similitude to the original, in the highly-coloured caricature which the noble mover had presented to their view? At the opening of his address, the noble lord had stated, that it was not his wish to import the Poor-laws into Ireland, in the full rigour in which they were administered in this country; but the noble earl's speech, like many other noxious things, carried a sting in its tail, and closed, by boldly avowing that he wanted a general assessment of the property in Ireland, for the maintenance of the poor. The noble earl had described people falling down in the streets and highways for mere want of food; but the same thing not unfrequently happened in England, and could form no sufficient reason for inflicting the system of the Poor- laws upon Ireland. In pleading the cause of Ireland, the noble earl seemed not to have forgotten England, and with considerable dexterity had angled for the support of noble lords especially connected with the latter. Among other matters, he had spoken of emigration from Ireland to England. Did the noble earl mean to say, that the Irish were not to be permitted to seek employment in this country? Was the unhappy wretch to be stopped on his first landing, and sent back again? Were the parish officers to tell him, "You carry want and misery on your front; you must not come here to pollute our shores—go back. It is true there was a union of the two countries, but it was only a paper union; so return and starve." No less than seven millions had been raised last year in England under the Poor-laws, and the litigations for removals and settlements had cost 600,000l. Did the noble earl imagine, that, by any inquiry, he could render such a system palateable in Ireland? Let the Poor-laws be once established, and the Spencean doctrines would flourish in full beauty and vigour: the misery, now partial, would be extended over the whole country, and felt by all classes; Ireland would wear one face of woe, and the lines of the poet would be verified:— We all are equal; for my lot is thine; That is your resting place, and this is mine. Property would soon become common; no man would work, because he could live without it; the Irish peasant would eat, drink, and sleep, and do no labour, but in the vocation of producing children. The noble earl, with great gallantry, was willing to devote his Irish property to destruction; but did he not recollect that his ancestors, the people of England, from the reign of Elizabeth to the year 1783, were employed in increasing the poverty in Ireland? Had it not been, during that long interval, one continued scene of aggression? The great lord Stratford was the first to establish a manufacture in Ireland, and he had written to a minister of state in England, that he would take care to repress the rising energies of trade and manufactures; for although he had given the Irish a slight manufacture of linen, which would employ a few, he would adopt measures to prevent its increase, as well as the introduction of the woollen manufacture. The successor of that noble lord pursued the same plan; wool was grown, but it was not allowed to be manufactured in Ireland, and its export was not permitted excepting to England; while cattle could not be sold here on account of the effect of competition on the price. The introduction of the Poor-laws would amount to a positive confiscation of property. Instead of burthening Ireland with new taxes, the noble lord should employ himself in devising means of making the people industrious and contented. One plan had, indeed, often been mentioned with approbation by the noble earl, as a remedy for all evils; it was what had been called communicating to the people of all religions equal rights; but how would that put an end to poverty? He was satisfied, that in no country of the world more genuine charity existed than in Ireland; but nothing was more likely to chill it than the threat of a compulsory levy for the maintenance of the poor. But the noble lord was anxious to introduce the Poor-laws for the sake of the aged and infirm, and precisely the same benevolent intention was expressed in the famed statute of Elizabeth; but if the poor, as they ought to have been, had been provided for at that time out of the revenues of the convents, the country would not have been infested by banditti. The noble earl had complained that there was no provision in Ireland for the infirm and aged; but he held in his hand a statement regarding the poor-house of Limerick, by which it appeared that the revenues last year amounted to 1882l. 6s. 5¼d., and that the number of poor relieved was one thousand and eight. There was scarcely a parish in which a dispensary was not established. The people, therefore, were not in such a state of helpless destitution. It was impossible for government to do every thing: they had already done much: they had employed the people, in great numbers, upon roads and bridges—not, indeed, at the expense of the public, but by advances which were subsequently repaid. Being satisfied, therefore, that a modified poor-rate, under the statute of Elizabeth, would end in accumulated taxation, and in inflicting upon Ireland the evil under which this country was writhing, he would oppose the motion.

The Earl of Longford

, in opposing the motion, hoped it would not be understood that he meant to deny the existence of great distress in Ireland. He believed that much distress did exist in that country, and he should be most happy to lend his aid to any plan which seemed calculated to remove it. His reason for opposing the motion arose entirely from his conviction, that the provision which the noble earl seemed inclined to propose would not have the effect which he hoped would arise from it. Considering the impracticability of applying to useful purposes such a measure as the noble earl contemplated, and believing that if general relief were granted, the mischief occasioned by it would be infinitely greater than any good that it was likely to effect, he trusted their lordships would not sanction it. He knew not how it was possible for their lordships to devise any suitable or practicable relief. The circumstances of the country were so complicated—the objects to be inquired into so various, that he thought it would be impossible to come to any practical views with reference to it; and he was perfectly sure, as no favourable result was likely to attend the proposition, that if it were acceded to, it would produce disappointment and agitation. The noble earl appeared to think, that the misery of Ireland was mainly to be attributed to the failure of the Popery question. This was one of the many nostrums which were put forth for the tranquillization of Ireland; but like other boasted specifics, it would not produce the supposed effect, if recourse were had to it. Respecting as he did the motives of the noble earl, he still felt him self compelled to differ from him in opinion as to the utility of his motion.

Viscount Lorton

said, that with his knowledge of the noble earl's being one of the best absentee landlords—but still an absentee—he could not help considering much of what the noble earl had advanced as theoretical, and therefore to be received with due caution. He concurred in the correctness of the statement, that much misery existed in Ireland; but in the noble earl's explanation of the cause of that misery he certainly could not agree. He therefore should state his opinion on the subject as clearly as a long practical experience would enable him. It was not necessary for him to enter into a view of the general state of Ireland: such an examination would open a vast field of discussion, and he should therefore avoid it; The whole bearing of the present discussion might be compressed into one narrow point—the extreme poverty and distress of the people of Ireland. Many causes were assigned for that distress, and numerous recipes were prescribed for the cure of the disorder. Their lordships had heard of one that evening, which, year after year, had been brought before the legislature— he meant that which was most erroneously called Catholic Emancipation. Now, he could not see how such a measure, if carried, could give relief to six or seven millions of people. The more the subject had attracted his attention, the more he felt satisfied, that if those claims were conceded the miseries of Ireland would be increased, and the chains of her slavery rivetted. He imagined that there could be but one opinion on the character of Popery as it existed in the darker ages; and if it had prevailed in England to the present day, this country never would have reached the station which she at present held among the nations of the world. Taking this position for granted, was it the wish of any party to keep the population of Ireland in that state of degradation which forwarded the views of those who were unable to value the 'glorious struggles of England for the establishment of her constitution? He requested their lordships to take a cursory view of the present condition of different parts of Europe. In Switzerland, where the same civil rights were enjoyed by all, some of the cantons were Protestant, and some Catholic: in the former all was industry, comfort, and cleanliness—in the latter, every thing presented an appearance the very reverse. How was such an extraordinary phenomenon to be accounted for? It could not be said that it was the effect of penal laws, for no penal laws existed there, except those which Popery enacted, and would enact wherever it was the predominant religion. Let their lordships look to the beautiful garden of Italy: they would there see the wretchedness and misery endured by the cultivators; of as fine a soil as any in the world. In short, as they approached nearer to the head-quarters of the Roman pontiff, they; would be the more struck with the deplorable state of the country; until at length they beheld the fac simile of Irish distress, Irish cabins, and Irish disease. It was the same in every country where the Catholic religion was allowed to take its full swing. In his opinion, the man could not be considered a true patriot, who, by procuring this emancipation, as it was incorrectly termed, would run the risk of reduring his country to that state of slavery and degradation from which she had freed herself.—He should now draw the atten- tion of their lordships to the situation in which Ireland was placed at present. A parliament was allowed to sit unmolested in Ireland, under the auspices of the Catholic clergy, who sent out orders to every man of their persuasion, rich and poor, high and low, to act as that self-elected body desired them. That mandate was obeyed; for none dared to resist it. Such a system must be crushed: and the sooner it was done the better. The Irish Catholics were, in fact, in a state of bondage: they paid a blind obedience to their priests, unknown in other countries. Those priests sent out their tracts against reading the Bible, and vented their feelings against all who did not blindly approve of their proceedings. In truth, the effect of the existing system was to drive Protestant gentlemen and Protestant property out of the country, and to keep in a state of disquiet and alarm, all those who did not choose to submit to the arrogant domination of this Catholic parliament, and its great supporters, the Catholic priests. And here he could not avoid noticing the striking contrast which existed between the Roman Catholic clergy educated abroad, and those educated at Maynooth. The former were generally well-affected to the government. What the conduct of the latter had been it was unnecessary for him to describe. He would say, viewing all these circumstances, that if it were wished to perpetuate the misery of Ireland, let the legislature grant Roman Catholic emancipation; for, by such an act, they would establish that imperium in imperio which he had spoken of, and they would, more than ever, encourage the Catholics to rise up against their Protestant fellow-subjects, whom they were taught to call heretics, and to look upon as persons with whom no faith was to be kept. This was a fact known to every gentleman conversant with the state of that country.—He might be asked, what remedy he would recommend? His remedy was simply to give employment to all who were in want of it. That course would effectually do away with the necessity for all those emigrations from Ireland to this country, the object of which was that the persons so coming here might pick up a few pounds for the support of their families, who, during their absence, were sent round the country to beg. This was a horrid system, and occasioned the most lamentable demoralization. Now, in what manner could the employment which he proposed. be afforded to the people? He would say, by the establishment of a sufficient fund, which might be raised by a general land and absentee tax; which should be expended, under proper regulations, on the improvement of the country where the money was collected. Such a plan, if adopted, would prove of material benefit to the country. In the course of a short time it would alter the habits of the people, and render Ireland, what it was not at present, a desirable place to reside in. He entreated ministers to act in a firm and decided manner towards Ireland, and not to attempt any thing by half-measures, or by what had been called conciliation. That had been tried over and over again, and had constantly failed. Let something be done for the poor; and, without ceremony, let an extinguisher be placed on the Popish; parliament. Then, and not till then, emancipation, in its true sense, would be: gained by the Roman Catholic population. Before he sat down, he begged to draw: their attention to a report laid before the guild of merchants of Dublin, on the 22nd of February, which contained a most accurate representation of the present state of Ireland. It proved clearly, that the wealth and the strength of Ireland were essentially Protestant, and not Catholic, as the demagogues would fain make the world believe.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that before he proceeded to the question, he begged to assure their lordships that he was thoroughly convinced, that no part of his majesty's dominions so imperiously required the particular attention of his majesty's servants as Ireland did. The noble earl had stated, that there were in Ireland eight millions of people, the situation of six millions of whom demanded inquiry. He had told their lordships likewise, that all the wealth of Ireland was not sufficient to give employment to those people. Now, certainly, he could not but think that this was an exaggerated statement. It could I not be the fact, that there were six millions of the Irish population who required employment: but he could see no use for an inquiry into that part of this subject; because it was well known, from the evidence which the House already had before it, that the poor of Ireland did suffer very considerable distress. But, it was not true that they suffered this distress at all times: it was not true that they suffered the same degree of distress in different years; but it was unquestionably true, that they did suffer great distress at various periods, owing to the casualties of the seasons, and to the particular species of food on which they subsisted. The noble earl had stated, that the people were able to procure that sort of food at three farthings a stone. Now, really, if those six millions of people could get provisions at that price, in favourable seasons, it did appear to him, that the case hardly called for inquiry, unless at a period when their food failed, in consequence of an unproductive season. No inquiry was necessary to prove that this was the real state of the case. They had the fact already before them, in a variety of statements made by persons of authority; and there could, in truth, be no doubt about the matter. But then the noble earl asserted, that the distress arose from want of work, and that it would take more than all the wealth of Ireland to procure employment for the people. "Let us, then," said the noble earl, "relieve the sick, the lame, the aged, and the impotent." Now, he believed it was true, as had been stated, that the gentlemen of Ireland had already subscribed largely for the relief of persons of that description. It was likewise true, that with all that could be done, when there was a great pressure of distress, it was utterly impossible for those gentlemen, however anxious they might feel on the subject, to relieve the whole of that distress; and the consequence was, that those shocking circumstances occurred to which the noble earl had so feelingly referred. But he would ask, did the noble earl intend to confine relief to the sick, the lame, the aged, and the impotent? Because if so, that relief would go a short way indeed to alleviate the extensive misery arising from want of employment. But another observation which he begged leave to make, resulted from the state of the poor in this country. The Poor-laws here were applied to, for the purpose of supporting able-bodied men, in numerous instances. The poor-rates were made applicable to that purpose, and much of the burthen was attributed to that part of the law, which required that work should be furnished to able-bodied men. This could not always be found; but still the system of relief must be persisted in, because, if work were not furnished to able-bodied men, and if no food were given to them, those able-bodied men would soon become sick, and declare on the parish. Now, he would ask, what the consequences must be, if a burthen of this kind were laid on property in Ireland—if the necessity of finding food for the sick, and not for the able-bodied, were imposed on that country? Why, the consequence would be, that nobody would work; and, when want of sustenance induced sickness, the people would at once come on the rates.—The noble earl had said, that one of the great evils of Ireland was want of capital; but he must tell the noble earl, that profusion of capital alone would not prevent the existence of a numerous body of poor. With the state of the poor in Ireland, their lordships were thoroughly acquainted. The opinion of Mr. Frankland Lewis, and of other acute individuals, examined before their lordships, was perfectly well known. Those gentlemen had stated, that the Poor-laws, as they existed in this country, or in Scotland, were not applicable to Ireland. Why, then, should they go into a committee, to have the same opinion stated over again, and probably by the same persons? It would only agitate the public mind; and, unless the noble earl laid down some practicable plan, it would be much better to avoid the inquiry.

The Earl of Mountcashel

opposed the motion. He observed, that the Catholic rent was principally collected from the poorest of the people, and if relief were generally extended to them, it would only enable the Catholic Association to take more money out of their pockets. He also opposed it, because it would tend to depreciate the value of land in Ireland; which already did not fetch more than half the price that it fetched in England. The people of Ireland did not require so much relief as was imagined: they were more prone to idleness, and were more easily satisfied than the people of England: give them their potatoes and their dirty cabins, and they thought they had got enough. With regard to the sick and aged, the bounty of private individuals had raised up numerous dispensaries, hospitals, &c. for their relief.

The Earl of Darnley

said, that perceiving the feelings of the noble duke, and that they were concurred in by many noble lords connected with Ireland, he felt that he ought not pertinaciously to press his motion. He had not a better opinion of the Catholic religion than other noble lords opposite; but he did not think that a constant vituperation of that re- ligion was the way to conciliate the people of Ireland. He could not think that religion the source of the evils of that country, when he saw the flourishing state of the Netherlands, where it also prevailed. He wanted to institute an inquiry, to see whether they might not give relief by increasing the state of the security of property there. He was opposed to the system of coercion which some noble lords seemed inclined to recommend; and he hoped the noble duke would not listen to their recommendations; for such a course would throw Ireland into a flame, and aggravate the evils she already suffered.

The motion was negatived.