Lords Sitting of 14 February 1828

CATHOLIC CLAIMS—TREATY OF LIMERICK.
Lord Clifdenpresented a petition from the Catholics of two parishes in Wexford, praying for relief from the existing disabilities. The petitioners complained of the gross breach of the Treaty of Limerick; and he would say that there could not be found a treaty under which the one country gained move, or which had been more unjustly violated by the other. If ever there was a clear and explicit treaty it was that; it ever there was a treaty most shamefully violated it was that. An hon. member of the other House had given notice of motion on the subject; and it was his intention to do the same on an early occasion. In his opinion the day must soon arrive when all tests with regard to religion would be abolished; for never could any thing be more unwise. He hoped that the Dissenters would be successful in their appeal to the other House; but if they were not, then they would unite with the Catholics, and their lordships would have to sing in a very different key.

GAME LAWS.
The Marquis of Salisburyrose to move the second reading of the Sale-of-Game bill. He should not have thought it necessary to say another word, had he not understood that it was the intention of his noble friend to move as an amendment, that a committee might be appointed to take into consideration

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the whole subject of the Game-laws. He therefore must call to their lordships' recollection what had passed on a former occasion, to justify the objection he felt to the appointment of a committee of inquiry. Some years ago, in another place, he had moved for the appointment of such a committee, and the result of the inquiry of that committee convinced every one, that the sale of game existed to an enormous extent; that the market was fully supplied; and that in many instances game was thrown away, because a price could not be obtained sufficient to remunerate the hazard of selling it. Under these circumstances, unless a material change had taken place in the supply of game, he thought it would be perfectly useless to go into a further inquiry. The subject of the Game-laws, taken altogether, deserved their lordships' serious attention; but he did not conceive that they would obtain from a committee any information which would enable them to proceed to a legislative measure. If they once embraced the subject of the Game-laws, their lordships must examine witnesses from all parts of the country, and the inquiry would not end this session. Their lordships knew that poaching existed to an alarming extent; that it caused bloodshed and murder; and this state of things called for some measure which, by legalising the sale of game, would diminish the crime of poaching. All their lordships had agreed to the principle of this bill, for it made part of every measure introduced for the improvement of the Game-laws. If it passed, it could not possibly have any bad results; the worst which could be anticipated from it would be, that it would remain a dead letter. He expected good from it. When the sale of game was legal, no respectable tradesman would buy of the poacher; and the poacher, no longer finding a ready market, would discontinue his trade.
Lord Wharncliffethought that the bill so far from advancing, would retard any improvement in the Game-laws. He was sure that a bill for the mere purpose of allowing the sale of game—leaving the other evils of the system untouched—was, as a first measure, the worst that could be adopted. For six years he had been endeavouring to bring about an alteration in the Game-laws, without success. Three years he had tried to effect his object in the House of Commons, and at the end
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of the third year one of his bills was passed, but was rejected by their lordships. He was ready to listen to the suggestions, and to give way to the prejudices, of noble lords; but he entreated the House, not to take a step which would render a complete reform of the Game-laws more difficult. Let their lordships look to the principle of this bill. They were asked to pass a bill to make game saleable in the hands of certain individuals who had the qualification to kill it. So that in order to get rid of a monopoly which existed at present, they were to create another monopoly from a motive ten times more base—that of turning the game into hard cash in their pockets. Thus, the great landholder might say to the small one, who had game on his land, "though the animal eats your crops, yet not having 100 l. a year, you shall not sell that animal." A law that gave such power was unjust and intolerable. He would ask any of their lordships, supposing they were small landholders, whether they would rest satisfied under such a law? No. Humanity would incite them to kill the game, and sell it in spite of his noble friend's bill. If he were convinced, that the proposed measure would be a step to other alterations, making the game belong to the person resident on the land, he should not object to it. He was, however, satisfied that it would have a contrary effect. Who were the parties who felt the warmest on the question of the Game-laws? The great landowners. There was much difficulty in persuading them that all was not quite right about those laws. There was, however, a considerable class of landholders who would have no objection to the Game-laws being amended so as to suit them, and would be exceedingly anxious to get the privilege of selling game, for the purpose of paying the expense of keeping it. Under these circumstances, what were the reasons for supposing that the extensive and dreadful practice of poaching would be put an end to by a mere bill for the sale of game? He was doubtful whether it would introduce more game into the market for the consumption of individuals than was at present consumed. Those who now preserved game killed as much of it as was consistent with keeping up the breed; and none of what they killed was thrown away. They made presents of it, or consumed it themselves; at any rate, it was all consumed. But if

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allowing game to be sold would not increase the quantity, it would increase the demand for it. Do away the penalties on selling game, and many persons more than at present would be ready to buy it. This additional demand would, in fact, be an additional temptation to those poachers who would find means to get through the clauses of his noble friend's bill, and poaching would be more extensive than ever. It was likely, he also thought, to make the now onerous and oppressive Game-laws less agreeable to the small freeholders and land-owners. The principal reasons why they now put up with them were, that those laws were a remnant of feudal times, and were a part of the amusements of their superiors. It they were not allowed to kill game, yet the great landowner was not allowed to sell it; he gave it away—he distributed it among his tenants or friends, or consumed it in hospitable entertainments to his neighbours. Now, he was to be allowed to sell that game which had been fed on their crops; the land-owner was to be allowed to turn the game into money, and thus the only reasons which reconciled the smaller freeholders to the Game-laws would be done away. He felt strongly on the subject, and he disliked very much that any measures should pass their lordships, which had the appearance of legislating for their own advantage, and not for the general benefit.—He wished to say a few words on the state of society occasioned by the Game-laws. He would only refer, however, to what happened in the north of England during the last Summer assizes. There were, he believed, several cases of game-keepers who were convicted of murder. He had a great respect for the learned judge who presided; but he could not believe, on his dictum, that it was the law of the land, that a game-keeper was not allowed to carry a gun; that nobody but the actually qualified person was allowed to carry a gun. He did not think this was good law, though it was so laid down by the judge. But this did not alter the nature of the Game-laws, which caused evils peculiarly their own. The evils and crimes caused by those laws could not be suppressed, except by a complete alteration of the laws. In Yorkshire, the poachers met in large bodies, and settled among themselves what part of the county they should overrun. He would lay a particular case of this description
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before their lordships, which shewed what crimes the Game-laws gave occasion to, and which no gamekeepers could prevent; for they could not resist without endangering their lives:—On December 31st, last year, a party, consisting of forty poachers, assembled near Pontefract, and resolved to kill the game of a gentleman in that neighbourhood; they proceeded to their work, the gamekeepers being quite unable to resist them, and there being no force in the neighbourhood to render assistance. After killing all the game they could find on this spot they proceeded along the high road, in open day, to sir John Ramsden's, who had fifteen keepers and guards. On the keepers approaching, they heard a voice command the poachers to leave off firing, to draw their shot, and load with bullets. Sir John Ramsden's people retired, and left the poachers to kill us much game as they could. He would also refer to the case of sir G. Armitage's keeper, whom the poachers shot at and killed; but, the very night after, the spot was again frequented; which shewed that no terror, no ordinary motives, could operate to restrain these people. He thought the evil very deep seated, and that it was their lordships business to probe it to the bottom. He did not wish to adhere to the plan he had brought forward last year; but he wished their lordships to take the matter fully into their consideration; and if they did that, he did not doubt but they would fall upon some measure which would satisfy the House. He should not think it necessary, if a committee were appointed, to examine much evidence on the subject; but he should propose to verify on oath a few of those facts which had recently thrown so much light on the working of the Game-laws. He only wished that those most interested in the question might meet, not as in that House, but in a private room, where they might talk over the measure; and he had no doubt they would come to a conclusion which would be satisfactory to all parties. He could assure his noble friend, that he would find there were certain persons in the other House who wished for no alteration in these laws, and who were always strong enough, by uniting with one party or the other, to defeat every improvement. He thought the measure of his noble friend would enable these persons to defeat all improvement in the whole code of Game-laws; and there-

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fore, he would move, "that the bill be read a second time this day six months."
The Earl of Falmouthsaid, he had opposed the bill brought in by the noble baron last session, because that bill had for its object not merely the prevention and diminution of crime by making game saleable, but the further object of giving new rights to every owner of a field or garden—rights which he had never purchased or inherited, and prejudicial to their habits of industry and usual occupations. With respect to a Committee of Inquiry, he thought no good could result from such a course as the subject had been repeatedly discussed by parliament. As to the present bill, he saw no reason to change his opinion since last session. He could not think that the making of game saleable would prevent or diminish crime. To him it appeared, that the opening of a market for game held out more temptation to poachers, and made detection more difficult. But, as it was believed by many persons, that the making game saleable would prevent or materially diminish the crime of poaching, the present bill, perhaps, would be the safest way to put that argument to the test of experiment. He should not, therefore, oppose the second reading.
The Duke of Richmondperfectly agreed with lord Wharncliffe as to the expediency of a complete alteration in the Game-laws. Game was not preserved by law, but by armed force. On this subject, he was a great reformer. He would repeal the whole of those laws, and substitute a summary act in their stead.
The Earl of Carnarvonthought if a Committee of Inquiry was appointed, its first measure would be, to put an end to the prohibition of the sale of game. He had never heard any alteration in the Game-laws proposed, which did not contain the principle of the sale of game. The only objection to the present bill was, that though it gave the right to sell game, it did not give it so extensively as the noble lord near him wished. But that noble lord was wrong in stating, that the bill would only give that right to great land-owners. It went much-further. It gave the right of selling game to any man possessing land to the amount of 100 l. a-year, and perhaps there were a hundred thousand who possessed that right. Besides, a clause might be added, by which the qualifications might be extended to occupiers of land, under certain circum-
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stances. If their lordships began by legalizing the sale of game, it would be easy to extend the qualifications afterwards, and then that would have its operation immediately on the bill before them; for that bill gave the right of selling game to all who possessed the right of killing it. From the present state of things, it was impossible for their lordships to legislate on a great and extensive scale. He agreed in the observation that, if any influential member of the other House would get rid of his prejudices so as to bring that House to re-consider the whole of their standing orders, he would confer the greatest benefit on his country. It was unjust towards their lordships, that they should be precluded from making penal acts; since, by the constitution of that House, their lordships were better able than the other House to frame a bill connected with jurisprudence, from their having the capacity of a court of justice, and having so many law lords among them. The great object of our ancestors in framing those rules, arose from a jealousy of grants to the Crown; and it would be a great advantage if the other House, still keeping the grants of money to itself, would give up nominal privileges. A clause, regulating a toll, made a bill a money bill; and after individuals had been put to great expense in bringing up a private bill, their lordships had only the option to put an end to it by making an amendment, or to permit the bill to pass, though it might contain positive injustice. As things stood, any attempt to introduce a bill on a large and extensive scale would, from the nature of things, be fruitless. He regretted exceedingly, the depredations committed all over the country in the pursuit of game, and was not sanguine enough to believe that any alteration that their lordships could make in the Game-laws would produce a material improvement. It appeared to be the fashion to impute every crime committed under the Game-laws to the operation of the laws themselves; but the present state of the Poor-laws and of the labouring classes throughout the south of England—rendered it absolutely impossible that the extent of those crimes could be diminished by any revision of the Penal-laws. He could state, from what had happened within his neighbourhood, that, during almost the whole of last winter, there was scarcely any employment for the unmarried men. It usually happened,

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that when the single men were without employment, they applied to the overseers of the parish for relief; who sent them by scores to work upon the roads, and the uniform result was, that they were sent to work upon bread-money wages—that was to say, upon just as much as the justices of the peace deemed to be sufficient for the minimum of existence. These men were sometimes sent to pick stones, and were allowed 4d. or 6d. per day, whilst others were allowed 1s. per day, because they were married men. He had sometimes found, that the young men were sent to pick stones in fields where no stones were to be found, in order that their time might be consumed for a trifling remuneration; and this happened in a country full of great roads near the capital, and in a highly cultivated agricultural district. This want of employment among the labouring poor was the grand cause of poaching. He was so satisfied of this, that he had endeavoured to put an end to poaching by employing the people through the winter, and with such success that there was hardly a poacher to be found in his parish. He sent them to work together in small companies; and he found that they worked with great emulation, although they were very dissatisfied when working singly. He had pursued this course for four years; and although he had not so many pheasants on his estates as some noble lords, yet he had a good many, and he found that none of those persons destroyed any game, but that they were growing up an industrious set of men, whilst the young people of the neighbouring parishes were not only idle and engaged in poaching, but were sent in considerable numbers to the tread-mill every winter. He was satisfied that such was the state of a great part of the country; and that the first step to be taken to remedy it was, to open the sale of game, to take away that strange principle, that whatever might be a man's character or influence, or personal property, if he had not a friend who could send him game, there was no other course by which he could obtain it than by openly encouraging robbery. He was satisfied, if their lordships should pass the bill, that the most beneficial consequences would result from it.
Lord Teynhamsaid, he should vote with great pleasure for the second reading of the bill.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas of
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opinion, that any general inquiry and any general measure for the improvement or alteration of the Game-laws, ought to be commenced in the other branch of the legislature. As he had always opposed the bill for the sale of game, he could not vote for it now; but in dividing against it, he did not mean to pledge himself to support a proposal for a committee. He was anxious to repress the prevailing rage for legislation upon every trifling matter.
Earl Darnleysaid, he had declared, many years ago, his opinion in favour of a bill upon the principle of that now offered for a second reading, on the ground, that the law, as it stood, was perpetually violated. He therefore should support the motion without deciding whether the measure might not need modification in the committee. After all that had been so ably stated—he was satisfied that justice could not be done without a thorough investigation. That the Game-laws were absurd and anomalous, and ought to be revised, no man would deny. In reference to the state of the peasantry of England, and to the operation which a repeal of the Game-laws might have in producing non-residence, he wished to call the attention of their lordships to the almost hopeless condition of the people of Ireland. Whoever had looked into the subject must know, that the increased facility of communication between the two countries, and the deplorable want of employment in Ireland, had induced a number of Irish labourers to visit this country, and the evil was every year augmented.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, it was the object of his bill to put down the warfare that was going on in the country between the poachers and gamekeepers, who were as regularly opposed to each other as any two factions in times of civil war. This state of things was, no doubt, partly owing to the total want of employment among the lower orders. It was his intention to propose a bill which would give the overseers of parishes who might choose to adopt the plan which he should have to propose, the means of affording employment to the poor.
Lord Clifdensaid, he should be glad to support the proposition of the noble lord, if he thought it would prevent the civil war which was going on between the poachers and gamekeepers. It was worth their lordships attention to try to prevent such a state of things.
The House then divided, For the second reading 26, Against it 24; Majority 2; Lord Wharncliffe then moved, "That a select committee be appointed to take into consideration the laws relating to Game and to report their opinion thereon to the House.—Agreed to."