Lords Sitting of 21 May 1827

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
The Earl of Mansfieldsaid, that agreeably to what he had stated on a former evening, that he would be regulated by the advice of his friends with respect to the motion of which he had given notice for the 7th of June, he should now move that the order for summoning their lordships for that day be discharged. He would also observe that he had no intention of bringing forward the motion at any future period. At the same time he wished it to be distinctly understood that his own opinion on the subject was unchanged. He did not, however, think it fair that he should consult only his own feelings, and his friends concurred with him upon the general principle, but differed from him in the course which he was disposed to adopt. He was not at present inclined to say any thing that would provoke discussion; but if any motion should be brought forward in reference to the subject, with every wish for unanimity, he should exercise his judgment upon it, and give it the un-biassed support of his vote.
The Earl of Harewoodseeing that this motion was disposed of, wished to put a question to a right reverend prelate on a subject of the highest importance. He disclaimed any wish to provoke discussion; all he desired was a plain answer. He was well aware of the delicacy of the question, but it was most important that the House and the country should have a pro-
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per understanding on the subject to which it referred. He had seen it publicly stated, that an opinion, held in a certain quarter, on the Catholic question was conveyed to the bishops, and through them to the clergy, by two eminent divines. Now, what he wished to ask was, upon what authority that declaration was made, for if it was made upon the authority publicly stated, it could not have taken place without the knowledge of his majesty's privy council.
The Bishop of Londonsaid, he felt some difficulty in answering the question put to him by the noble earl. He did not understand the precise import of it; but if it referred to a statement which had appeared in the public papers, respecting an opinion entertained in the highest quarter—a quarter which he was not at liberty to mention—he had no hesitation in saying, that that statement was substantially correct. He should not have presumed to have made it unless upon authority; and if their lordships desired that he should go further, and state what the authority was, he was ready to obey their commands [Loud cries of "order!" and "go on!"].
Earl Spencerrose to order. There was now no question before the House; and the subject had much better be brought forward in a formal motion, than by irregular and desultory debates. The question was one of the highest importance, and could not be disposed of in this manner.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, that if the object was to elicit by the answer of the right rev. prelate the authority upon which he had made the statement, the question ought not to be entertained.
The Earl of Harewoodsaid, he could state from his own experience in parliament, that it was not unusual to put questions; and he was the more induced to put this one, because no answers were given to some that were recently asked. It was only said by noble lords opposite, that if any motion was made on a question affecting the stability of the government, then the necessary information would be afforded. He had no desire to provoke discussion. All he wanted to know was, what he had now ascertained, that the right rev. prelate had authority for doing what he had done.
The Marquis of Lansdownwished to make a few observations, in reply to what had been stated by the noble earl. It was merely as a matter of courtesy that ques-

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tions were answered; and he did not conceive that any noble lord was bound to do so, until the matter came before the House in a regular form. But it must rest in the bosoms of noble lords on that side of the House, whether they would answer the questions put to them or not; and it well became the right reverend prelate to pause in his discretion before he proceeded further. If he must suppose, that the object was to elicit from the right reverend prelate that which, as a privy-councillor, he was bound not to disclose, then he must feel, that, were he to do so, he would take upon himself a most serious responsibility. It was not, however, likely that the right reverend prelate would commit himself by giving advice under circumstances which never were, and never could be, recognised by parliament. He was quite sure the House would not insist on the disclosure now sought to be obtained—no, not even if a motion were made on the subject.
Earl Greyconcurred entirely with those noble lords who thought it better to postpone all discussion, until the question assumed some tangible shape. But he wished to say one word as to the situation in which they stood, in consequence of the question put to the right reverend prelate. What his noble friend (the marquis of Lansdown) said, respecting the right of refusing to answer questions was perfectly true; though, by the practice of parliament, they were frequently put. For his own part, he thought it very improper to press for answers, which the parties to whom the questions were put might feel themselves every way justified in refusing to give. But, in the present case it appeared that, to a question of the greatest importance, a distinct answer was given. The right rev. prelate stated, that, if the noble earl alluded to what appeared in the newspapers, that statement was substantially correct; and he understood him, at the same time, to say, that he would not have been so presumptuous as to make it without sufficient authority. Therefore, they were now in this predicament—that a statement was made, under authority, upon a subject of the greatest importance—one which he should not now allude to more particularly; and thus far, at least, ground was laid for the noble earl, or any other noble lord, to bring forward a motion, for taking the opinion of parliament on the proceeding, and on the conduct of the
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advisers of the Crown. In his opinion, the sooner the present discussion dropped, the better.
Lord Rollesaid, he had heard with great satisfaction that the statement in question had been made.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that the answer of the right rev. prelate ought not to be taken in the sense in which it seemed to have been interpreted by the noble earl. Had the House put upon the words the interpretation given to them by the noble earl and others, it was its duty to interfere, and stop the right rev. prelate from proceeding further. He himself was not blind to the importance of the question; he was not blind to the object for which it was put; he was not blind to the impropriety of suggesting a private question to a privy-councillor, in order to ascertain the private sentiments of the individual on whose head the crown might be placed, upon a great question, at a time when that question remained to be discussed. This was destructive of the character, and incompatible with the privileges of parliament: it made it unfit that they should sit there, mocking themselves and the country with the idea, that they were discharging their duty, while they permitted it to be supposed that, on any measure which was pending, or about to be pending, the sovereign had formed a previous determination. No noble lord ought to presume to ascertain beforehand, what might be the private determination of the sovereign of the country, on a subject which must come before parliament, and on which he must take or reject the advice of those who were his confidential servants. This was not the true doctrine of the constitution. If it was, those who had so strenuously endeavoured to establish a free representation had fought and bled in vain. On these grounds, he trusted that the question would never be discussed; and in whatever form it might be brought forward—whether regular or otherwise—that it would meet with a direct and indignant negative.
Earl Greysaid, that if the question was brought forward in the manner which he should propose, he was persuaded it would not meet with a negative; nay, he should even expect the support of the noble earl himself—concurring, as he did, in every sentiment which he had expressed. It appeared to him, however, that the noble earl should have reserved to another occasion the remarks he had made upon a

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question which, most of all others, affected the independence of parliament.
The Earl of Harewoodsaid, that whatever impropriety there might be in introducing the subject, he was prepared to take all the blame and responsibility upon himself. He knew that the question was one of great delicacy; but, when a communication on the subject was made to large bodies of men, he felt that it was no longer of a private, but public nature.
The conversation then dropped.