Lords Sitting of 7 May 1827

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
The Bishop of Chester roseto present a Petition to their lordships from the city of Chester, against granting any further concessions to the Catholics; and in presenting it he felt himself called upon to say a single word. He had not, on any occasion, felt any great anxiety to vindicate himself from reports; but, on the present occasion, it had been said publicly, that he had been the instigator of the present petition, and he must therefore distinctly and solemnly assure their lordships, that he had not heard of the petition until he had received it to present to their lordships. Though he

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might, on several occasions, have stated what his own opinion was, and might have referred to the popular opinions, he never had, since he had sat in the House, nor when the subject to which the petition referred was under discussion in parliament, been the instigator of a single petition.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he had been requested to support the prayer of the petition. It, however, could never be supposed that he approved of its prayer. He was not surprised at his right rev. friend disclaiming all connexion with the getting-up of that petition, after it had been unjustly reported that it had been prepared under his authority. He was also readily disposed to be satisfied with that disclaimer, for he knew that the people of Chester had such a horror of Popery, that it had induced them to send up a second petition to their lordships, during the present session, against Catholic emancipation. He believed there was no place in England where the horrors of Popery pressed themselves on the minds of men, women, and children, in so great a degree as in Chester. Though he did not expect any rapid progress towards the change of that feeling, yet he did expect that, ultimately, a change would take place; for some friends of his residing in Chester, had lately assured him, that they began to entertain a different opinion upon the subject of the Roman Catholic claims to that which they had formerly held.
The Duke of Sussexsaid, he held in his hand a petition relating to the same subject. It came from the Roman Catholics of the province of Connaught, praying to be relieved from those penalties under which they laboured, and to participate in those civil rights from which they were now excluded. In presenting this petition, he thought it his duty to say a few words, in the first instance, to support the prayer of the petition; and likewise to state the reasons which had prevented him from presenting the petition sooner. When this petition was first handed to him, he had been prevented from attending to his duties in that House, on account of being engaged upon their lordships' committees; and afterwards an event had taken place, which caused him to delay still longer presenting the petition. But, seeing that so great a number of petitions against the Catholic claims had been presented to their lordships, he thought he should be acting unjustly towards the individuals who had
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placed the petition in his hands, if he delayed any longer to present it. The subject was one which had occupied his serious attention, and he humbly stated that his opinion was totally unaltered; but at the same time he must be permitted to observe, that the question was one of extreme delicacy and importance, upon which it was requisite to go with the feelings of the country. It was highly necessary not to urge forward this question with violence, or offend the public mind by haste. The question was one which required time, and ought not to be hurried. He never considered, that the subject should be forced unwillingly on the country, and still less that it should be got rid of by clamour. The question of the Catholic claims had never been considered as a party question: it had been left open to every one to vote as he pleased. With that view of the subject he had always voted, and with that view of the subject only he should always vote; but if the question was to be made the standard of a party, he would not give to it the aid of his voice.
Ordered to lie on the table.

NEW ADMINISTRATION.
The Marquis of Londonderry,in rising to move for some information, in addition to that moved for by his noble friend a few days before, which would enable their lordships to form a correct estimate of the state of the Foreign Office, spoke to the following effect:—If the noble lords opposite will get up and state, that the present administration is constituted as it is to remain—that it is not, in the view of the noble lords opposite, merely provisional—then I will not persevere in pressing this subject on your lordships, or move for those papers which I now mean to ask for. But, unless they make such a declaration, I shall feel it my duty, not only now, but at every subsequent opportunity, to ask for such information as will enable us to see what is the state of the offices held by the noble lords on the other side. My noble friend said, the other night, he wished for a fair field and no favour; and my noble friend will do me the justice to believe, that I am not a man who wants any thing but a fair fight. I think I have served my country sufficiently long to entitle me to try a little to find out what is going on, and I shall bring forward motions until I see in what state the government stands. Its present posit on is quite a new one. Is it

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only a provisional government? Are not many of the noble lords whom I now see merely the shadows of office? I have read of a shadowless man; but, in my humble opinion, the First Lord of the Treasury has many shadows. I mean to move for a return which will elucidate the present situation of the Foreign Office, and what it was when it was held by my most lamented brother. It was said, that, in this department, the expenditure has been much increased since then. I believe also, as it is stated, that the First Lord of the Treasury has taken care of himself, and that he has made sure of being provided for—that he has actually received a pension of 3,000 l. a-year for his services. I want to ascertain exactly what is the situation of the Foreign Office; and, therefore, I shall move for the Returns I shall mention. If, however, the noble lords opposite will say the government is not provisional, I will not press the motion. But, until the point is ascertained, I will continually and repeatedly call on the House, till the end of the session, to ascertain this point. It is said that the Secretary of State for the Home Department is provisional, and that the First Lord of the Treasury is to return to the Foreign Office; seeing that the patronage and appointments are so great. This is only a report, but I believe the report may be true. I am told that, in a short time, the Secretary of War is to take the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer; and that the First Lord of the Treasury is to unite in himself that office with the office of Secretary for Foreign Affairs. When I hear these things stated, I wish to know the grounds of this desire, on his part, to return; and therefore it is, that I shall move for some Returns to show the extent of the establishment. I see a change in all the offices of the country, from that state in which the wisdom of our ancestors had settled them. I see a change in those established systems which the greatest statesmen and the wisest men of this country have approved of. They are all of a sudden overturned, and new arrangements made. We have a new administration, in form as well as in men. Of the navy I speak with humility, for I know nothing of it; but of the army I know more; and the army is now to be so regulated, that the whole patronage is to be thrown into the hands of the ministers. It has always been customary for some
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person to be placed at the head of the army, who knows how to select the officers, and who can give officers of merit that promotion which their character deserves; but the army is now to be entirely regulated by the Secretary of War. The fact is, that difficulties are every where met with, because nobody knows whether he is to remain in office or not. I declare to my noble friend (lord Goderich)—to whom, privately, nobody bears more affection than I do—that I am sorry to see him numbering in his ranks those noble lords who have long been the champions of reform. He has united himself with a democracy, who have always been acting as if they were aiming at a Revolution. I speak my opinion freely of the situation of the country; and this is also, I believe, the opinion of every rational man. I give notice, my lords, that I will seize every opportunity of endeavouring to find out on what ground the government stands. I am but a humble individual to undertake such a task; but I do it conscientiously. I have no feeling but that of duty. I should not certainly have quitted my usual course, and have pressed myself on your lordships' attention, if I did not think it was my duty. It becomes a man of spirit to declare his opinions, and I declare that the present administration is the most contemptible in the whole range of history. I speak with submission, and mean nothing personal to the individuals. I speak not of noble lords individually; but to the administration as a whole. But I must call this the most trifling and mean arrangement I ever heard of; and this stops far short, I believe, of the general opinion of the country. When I see the noble lords now sitting opposite, place themselves under the direction of my noble friend, to carry into effect some little arrangements, to get over the business for a short period, and that then the parliament, as it is said, at least the House of Commons, is to be sent to the right about—so I understand the President of the Board of Trade has stated elsewhere—I ask, are we to go through the session with one hand tied, and not know who are to be ministers and how we are to be governed? There are some great names in our history, such as Pitt and Fox. Would they, I ask, have submitted to such a system as this? Would they have consented to make a part of a provisional government? If the noble lords opposite will stand up, and say this is not the case, I will waive my

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purpose, and will not move for the papers which I propose to have laid before your lordships. If not, I declare, that day after day, I will show up the drivelling, the contemptible position, in which the public men of our time are placed. There are some other points into which I will enter. I will state to your lordships some of the reports in circulation. I am entitled to do this, though I am not able to prove them to the House. With respect to these reports, they do no credit to the noble marquis on the opposite side; and he and other noble lords would find nothing so easy as to contradict them. In stating them, perhaps I may be accused of indiscretion; and I know that I run a great risk that what I state may not be true. I will not go into the details of all this provisional arrangement, but I will state in what manner it was made. Your lordships may perhaps attempt to arrest my progress, and perhaps I may be written down by a vile and a venal press [hear, hear!]. I know that I shall be assailed by ridicule, on every succeeding day; but that shall not stop me from pursuing my course. I know, and your lordships all feel, how disagreeable it is to be so assailed; but I will not be stopped, whether the attempt be made to arrest me in this House, or to beat me down by a venal press; because I will tell both, that all their ridicule passes by me "as the idle wind, which I regard not." It is reported—and if I state it, I may perhaps induce noble lords here, and right hon. gentlemen in another place, distinctly to deny it—it is reported, I say, that an eminent barrister, a member of the other House, did make certain overtures respecting himself and his party, and respecting a noble marquis and his party, to the First Lord of the Treasury [hear, hear!]. I beg leave to state, that I give this on no authority; it is only a rumour. But, at the same time that the overtures came, they were received and put into the right hon. gentleman's pockets. He held no consultation as to these overtures, and had not made acquainted his colleagues with their nature. He pocketed them. Some time afterwards, the First Lord of the Treasury went to Windsor, and while there a certain use was made of these overtures, and that brought about the connection, into the particulars of which I will not enter further. The result is there to shew what took place, and to show what were the
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consequences of the learned advocate's overtures, and the noble marquis's adherence to them. I will also state to the House what has been said of the manner in which his colleagues were treated by the First Lord of the Treasury. They were kept entirely ignorant of the whole proceeding until ten days afterwards—entirely ignorant of the use made of these overtures at Windsor. There has been a great deal of talk about cabal, by which the present administration has been formed; though, if the report be true, there is another word which would be more appropriate than cabal. I should call it an intrigue. If the overtures were concealed ten days after the negotiations were closed with the other party, there has been nothing before like it in our history, if I except some proceedings in the year 1809. How this came to be known I am not acquainted, but secrets will come out; and the First Lord of the Treasury found it necessary to tell one or more of his colleagues, the Secretary of State for the Home Department for example; when that gentleman asked him what was the date of the overtures, and then exclaimed, "Good God! Is it possible that you can have had them in your pocket a whole fortnight, and not have communicated them to any of your colleagues?" Are these things true, I ask, or are they not? Will the noble marquis stand up and say that no overtures were ever made? Will the First Lord of the Treasury deny what is loudly proclaimed? I declare I have no information [loud cries of hear, hear!]. Noble lords cry "hear!" but though I have no particular information, these things are reported in public; and let those to whom they apply deny them, and I shall be the first to throw myself on the indulgence of your lordships. Let those I have named say the reports are incorrect, and I shall be the first, not only to acknowledge my error, but to request the indulgence of your lordships, and humbly to ask pardon. Nothing is more easy than to deny such assertions; and if they be denied, I shall not follow up this motion. If this provisional government continues, I shall feel it my right, and my duty, to assail them in every possible manner, until the real state of the circumstances are known; and I hope, before long, to hear the truth acknowledged, and to see some arrangement made for a permanent administration. The present one cannot receive any support, composed

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as it is of Whigs and Tories. I declare to God that the noble marquis is in a position in which I should not like to stand. He is like a fish in the water—propelled by his tail. The tail of his party has forced him into office. He has left the great post he occupied, on the side of the House whence he dealt forth the thunder of his eloquence, and he has walked over to the other side, and placed himself under the direction of my noble friend. I have a great respect for my noble friend. We have known each other long, and we respect and love each other; but I must confess, that I think him not at all to be compared to that noble marquis, whom we have all heard with respect and admiration; not at all to be compared, I say, to lord Lansdown [Order, order!]—not at all to be compared to another noble lord, who has notwithstanding descended from his high pinnacle, and now condescends to serve en second under my noble friend. This is my general opinion, and I have thought proper to state it; because, on all public occasions, one feeling in me is paramount to all others—the feeling that I ought to do my duty. I have acted on this feeling in every situation, and will act on it while God pleases to prolong my life. I acted on it for twenty years while I was a soldier; and I now feel it more necessary than ever to do so. It is the duty of every honest man to stand up in his place and speak his opinions, when the abominable and ungrateful press of the country is showering its abuse on the illustrious duke who saved the country, and secured for it its present glory; when it is made the instrument for paralysing the public mind, and neutralising all parties, spreading abroad vile and abominable principles, and running down the greatest man of our time; when this is the case, it is not possible that he should not recall to the recollection of the country those periods when the late administration held the reigns of government; and it was impossible but that that administration would shine, in the records of history, to the present, like the sun to darkness.—The noble marquis concluded by moving; 1st, for a Return of all appointments made by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether at home or abroad, since January 1st, 1822, specifying the Nature of the Office, the Salary, the Name of the Persons appointed, as well as the Salaries of all Ministers, Consuls, Secretaries, and other Officers ap
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pointed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and distinguishing the Total Expenditure of the Foreign Office; 2nd, for a Return of all the Extraordinary Expenses of the Foreign Department since 1822; 3rd, an Account of all the New Appointments made by the Foreign Office since November, 1822, to the present time, stating the cause why the Appointment was made; 4th, for a Return of the Names of all Persons under the Administration of the Foreign Office, from the Secretary of State to the lowest Officer, who have retired from office with Pensions and Allowances, since September, 1822, up to the present time, distinguishing for what Services the Pension has been granted, and under what Authority; stating also, if the Grant has been made with the authority of the Lords of the Treasury. The last Return, the noble marquis explained, included ambassadors and other diplomatic characters. He had himself had the honour to fill a situation of this kind, and he wished to know if the noble lords who had held these situations had received, or ought to receive, pensions? He had served eleven years, and was not one of those who had obtained a pension.
Lord Dudley and Wardreplied to the noble marquis, but parts of his sentences were inaudible below the bar. We understood his lordship to say, that their lordships would not expect him to follow the noble marquis through the vast variety of topics which he alluded to, and which it would have been much better had he omitted altogether, or at least deferred them until the day when the motion of which his noble friend had given notice should come on. As the noble marquis had thought proper to allude to him, he should beg leave to trouble their lordships with a few words. He should not go into all the charges of the noble marquis, but should confine himself to that one which related to his acceptance of the office he had now the honour to hold.—I accepted it (said his lordship) because I was convinced, by the opinions of those whom I respect, that by so doing I might humbly and honourably serve his majesty at a time when the services of his subjects were more especially required. How long I shall continue to hold the office which I now occupy, depends on his majesty, and on my conviction that I can serve him usefully [cheers]. But, be that continuance longer

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or shorter—and as far as my individual feelings are concerned, the shortest period will be the best. I shall not be deterred from the discharge of its duties, by any idle clamour or vain attacks, with which I may happen to be assailed. With respect to the motion of my noble friend, I can assure your lordships, and the noble marquis himself, with equal sincerity, that it is not my wish to suppress any information which he may think necessary, and we can furnish to the House, in consistence with our public duty. On the contrary, it is my own wish, and I am sure I can answer for my noble and right hon. colleagues, that it is theirs, to pay every attention to calls such as have been now made upon us. But, with respect to the papers now sought, they are so complicated and voluminous, that I am sure the noble marquis himself will not consider me disposed to occasion any unfair delay, if I suggest, that it will be better for him to withdraw his proposed motion, and substitute for it a notice of motion for some future day, in order to afford his majesty's government an opportunity to consider whether all which he demands ought to be complied with—whether it can be granted. I repeat, my lords, there exists no desire on the part of the government, to suppress or withhold any information which it is in its power to afford. I can answer for my right hon. friend, to whom so much allusion has been made, that such is not his intention. Under these circumstances, I trust the noble marquis will be induced to give notice of the motion for some other day. I hope, with this view, he will consent to withdraw it for the present, appointing a future, and not distant, day, for its discussion: giving his majesty's ministers, meanwhile, sufficient time to consider whether they can afford the information he requires. I make this suggestion to the noble lord, with the fullest and most entire disposition to grant every thing which he may ask, provided it be consistent with my official duty.
The motion was accordingly postponed till Wednesday.

CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Earl of Mansfieldintimated his intention of submitting a motion to their lordships, on the subject of Catholic Emancipation, on the 7th of June; for which day he moved, that their lordships be summoned.
Earl Grey roseto put a question to the
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noble earl, respecting the purport and tendency of his motion. From what passed upon a former night, he did not very distinctly understand with what view the question was to be brought forward. This he did understand, that nothing was more opposite than the sentiments entertained by himself and the noble earl on the subject. Now wishing, as he did, that every thing which took place with regard to that question, might promote its ultimate success, he desired to know what was the object of this motion; and he should also wish, if it was convenient, to be made acquainted with the manner in which it was to be framed.
The Earl of Mansfieldsaid, he was ready to give every explanation in his power; but he must be excused if, at that moment, he was unable to detail precisely the form and object of the motion. However, he was able to say, that it was his wish and intention to lay before their lordships a resolution, declaring, that the country was now in a fit state to express their decided opinion with regard to the exclusion of the Catholics from power, and to say whether that exclusion ought to be abolished, or limited, or maintained, in its present state. He should also propose to them to declare, that they approved of the principle of exclusion, and that they considered it to be founded on, and immutably connected with, the principles of the British constitution. And further, it would be his wish to obtain, by means of this motion, a declaration from the Crown, that would allay the alarms of his majesty's Protestant subjects, by making it known, that it was his majesty's intention to resist any encroachment on the ecclesiastical establishments of the country. This was the purport of his motion, although these would not be the precise words of it. Whether he proceeded or not in this motion, would depend in a great measure, on the opinions of those whom he respected. His own opinions with regard to the policy and propriety of exclusion were (he was obstinate enough to say) likely to remain unchanged; but he should not act upon them alone. The motion he intended to submit, was one which, if it succeeded, would, he thought, be attended with general benefit: if it failed, he knew that ridicule would be attempted to be attached to it. All that ridicule he was himself prepared to submit to; but he should not

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press the motion, if those for whose opinions he entertained the highest respect should think he ought to defer it; but he should not be prevented from persisting in his motion by any apprehension that by withdrawing it he should be blamed for weakness or indecision.

APPEALS—DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
The Commission for the appointment of the Master of the Rolls, as Deputy Speaker, was read by the Clerk of the House.
The Earl of Lauderdalewished, that it should be explained, by some member of the government, whether, by the commission they had just heard read, it was intended to make the learned person therein mentioned the Chairman of the House, for the purpose of hearing and deciding Appeal cases, without, at the same time, creating him a member of the House? If such was the object of the commission, he thought it involved a strange anomaly; since, after having heard the case, and drawn up the judgment, that learned person (for whose talents he entertained the sincerest respect) must put that judgment into the hands of a peer to move that it be received by their lordships. He thought the present administration had been pledged to act upon the principles of lord Liverpool's administration. Now, he wished to know whether this appointment was a part of their performance of the promise? There had been some time since a Deputy Speaker introduced into their lordships' House; but, had the noble earl, then at the head of the government, introduced among them a person who was not a peer to fill that situation? Certainly not: for it had been filled by a noble lord whose decease they had recently had reason to regret. He wished, therefore, upon this subject, to know, what were the intentions of the government.
The Lord Chancellor[lord Lyndhurst] begged to take upon himself the whole responsibility of the measure now introduced to their lordships' notice. He thought they would be of opinion that, considered as a temporary measure, and with respect to the business of the House and of the court of Chancery, it was both prudent and proper. The noble earl had alluded to lord Liverpool's administration, and had spoken as if there was no precedent for this measure. Now, he might have recollected—and, if he pleased, no
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man could recollect such matters better than the noble earl—that there was a precedent to be found for it. However, without going into the circumstances of that case which furnished a precedent for the measure now adopted, it would, perhaps, be necessary, that he should state what had been the course pursued in this instance, and what the reasons which had induced him to adopt it. He would first recal to their lordships the state of the business of the House on appeals. There were now before their lordships seventy Appeals from Scotland, and forty from the courts of England and Ireland. In the course of last session the noble lord to whom allusion had been made, with all his talent for business, with all his quickness of perception and legal learning, and with all his perseverance and industry (and he did not hesitate to affirm, that to his perseverance in the duties of his office he had fallen a victim), could not get through more than forty of the Scotch Appeals. In this state of things, what was the course pursued? It was proposed, and he again declared that it was proposed on his advice and responsibility, to dispose of the Scotch Appeals by the assistance of the Chief Baron of the court of Exchequer, who was intimately acquainted with the Scotch law, and who was to devote two days in the week, for the hearing of the Scotch Appeals. More than that time he could not devote to that object, without injury to the suitors of his own court. The assistance, therefore, of the learned individual named in the commission just read would be required for one day, in furtherance of the same object. It was absolutely necessary that the lord Chancellor should sit for two days in the week, to decide English and Irish Appeals; and he was quite sure, that if noble lords referred to the business of the court of Chancery, they would be convinced that the lord Chancellor could not be spared from that court more than two days in the week, without prejudice to the public interest. By the system proposed, there would be five days in the week devoted to the hearing of appeals. The Scotch Appeals would have three days employed upon them by two individuals of great knowledge and talent, and both well conversant with the laws of Scotland; and the lord Chancellor would sit for two days in each week to dispose of the English and Irish

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Appeals. This arrangement would give him four days for the court of Chancery—a period which, he trusted, would be found sufficient to keep down the business of that court. He must say, that it would not have been just towards himself to launch him at once into the hearing of all the Appeals now before the House, and to require him, at the same time, to dispose of all the business now in arrear in the court of Chancery. If their lordships would grant him the indulgence which, he thought, he might in justice require, he would pledge himself, before the next session, to perfect a plan, with reference to the business of his court, that should secure its performance regularly, faithfully, and accurately [hear, hear!]. The arrangement now proposed was merely temporary; and, notwithstanding what had been said about lord Liverpool's administration, he might observe, that it had had the good fortune to meet with that noble earl's approbation.
The Earl of Lauderdaledid not object to the arrangement of the business itself, and did not wish to throw the heavy duties of the court of Chancery and of this House upon the shoulders of the lord Chancellor; but his objection was, that whoever might be appointed to take part in the performance of those duties should be enabled to do so as a member of that House. He was sure there was none more capable, in every respect, than the learned individual whose commission had been now read; but he objected to the anomaly of appointing an individual to try appeal cases there—an employment of the highest confidence—when that individual, after having formed his judgment, must propose it to a peer before it could be received by the House.
Lord Hollandsaid, that, as a member of that House, he must object to noble lords using expressions, which seemed to convey the idea, that the learned law lords sat in that House to try and decide appeals. The right to try and decide appeals was not limited to any one noble lord, or to any particular peers in preference to the rest; but resided in every member of that House equally. They were all "peers;" and that one word showed that they were all equal. It was the duty of every man in that House, as a lord of Parliament, to sit and insist in the hearing of appeals. If the deputy Speaker or the lord Keeper was, as by the constitution of that House he might be, a com
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moner, should the king choose to appoint such a person to that office, he would only sit there to assist the House, and he would be bound to give the House such opinions as the House might exact from him. That there had been a change in the constitution of that House, with regard to the hearing of appeals, he was ready to acknowledge; but it was a change effected by no other power than a majority of that House, and not only so, but at the express recommendation of the noble earl. When that alteration was first introduced to the House, he (lord H.) had warned them of the inconvenience of it; as it seemed to him it would introduce the practice of deciding Appeals by some individual members, and not by the whole House. The lord Keeper, the Speaker, and the deputy Speaker of that House might be commoners, and they would then only give their assistance to the House, not to decide the Appeals brought before them. Even the lord Chancellor himself, though a peer, did not possess any additional power, as lord Chancellor, in the decision of appeals; and when he spoke upon any subject under discussion, he was obliged to quit his seat, and to speak only as a peer, though he took, at the head of the duke's bench, that high rank to which he was entitled by the dignity of his office. If the deputy Speaker was sitting, and the lord Chancellor came in, he must also take that seat as the first peer in rank. These were the rules of the House, and he was sorry that they seemed to have been forgotten. It was not because they had the satisfaction of having some learned law lords among them, that expressions were to be used, calculated to mislead the people, and to make them imagine that those learned lords, and not the whole House, sat to decide appeals.