Lords Sitting of 4 May 1827

NEW ADMINISTRATION.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, he would take that opportunity of asking, whether it was the intention of any noble lords opposite, some of whom had recently occupied the places they held in that House, to bring forward any motion on the three great constitutional questions which had been supported ably and strenuously, and, he might add, with firmness and consistency, by some noble lords opposite. The questions he alluded to were, parliamentary reform, abolition of sinecure places, and the repeal of the Test-act. If there was no intention on the part of any noble lord opposite to bring forward any of the questions during the present session, he should think it his duty, under the existing state of affairs, and particularly when he saw the most extraordinary condition of his majesty's government, composed of two different parties, one of which had always constitutionally supported the questions he had alluded to, while the other had always opposed them; to bring under the consideration of parliament those questions, which would put to the test the principles of the present administration. He therefore proposed, on the 11th of June, to bring forward a motion, for the House to resolve itself into a committee to take into consideration the state of the nation. He did not think he was called upon to state the grounds for making this motion, further than what he had done; but he thought noble lords must agree with him in thinking, that either there was an abandonment of principles on the part of the noble lords opposite, or that there was some private cause, which was calculated to influence their public opinion, and produce unanimity among them. One of these two positions must be conceded to him; and he thought it necessary, for the preservation of the national and political character of the country, to bring the question to a decided issue.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that it might be convenient to consider directly what was the real state of the government as it stood at present; for there were reports going abroad that some of the offices of the new government were only provisionally filled up.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that, as there was no motion before the House, the course pursued by the noble marquis was quite irregular.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, there was a motion before the House. That motion was, that the House be summoned.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that if he had been out of order, the learned lord on the woolsack was there to correct him; but if it were supposed that he would be put down by any noble lord, for broadly stating his opinion on any subject, he could tell that noble lord, that he was addressing himself to a man of very different character and spirit from what he expected. The extreme haste in which the noble lord opposite rose to interrupt him, proved that what he was about to say would not be very agreeable for him to hear. He was confident that he must feel a little awkward. He had heard reports, that it was not certain whether some of the noble lords who now occupied places in the cabinet were ultimately to retain them. Being of that opinion himself, he should like for a little elucidation upon the subject. He had heard that the noble lord who was Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the right hon. gentleman who at present filled the situation of Secretary of State for the Home Department, were not permanently to remain in those offices; that they only held them provisionally, until other noble lords might find it convenient to launch into office. Those noble lords waited a short time to see to what issue the government might come. Was he to understand, that those noble lords who had gone over to the other side of the House were determined to retain their new offices; or did they look upon those offices as only provisionally held? This question was one of so much importance, that it was highly necessary to come to a right understanding upon it. When he looked at the building which had been erected, he found it divested of all its main pillars, and that it was composed now of a sort of rubbish. The artificer had certainly been dexterous in forming the building; be he questioned with its durability. Could he have found out such a mass of rubbish in any other quarter, formed as it were by the two parties. The artificer had made a dexterous endeavour to un-Whig a part of the Whigs, and un-Tory a part of the Tories. In such a situation was the government now placed. Good God! who could without pain look back for twenty years, and now see the country in such a state, that if one went along the streets he heard every man saying—Good God, what will
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become of this? Was the first lord of the Treasury permanently resolved to attach himself to that party, and those political persons, to whom, for the last twenty years, he had been opposed? Was he disposed to take them into his councils? He should like to know whether the appointments of the government were real, before the great question came on, to bring forward which a noble earl had wisely given notice; and he should like to learn also, whether it was thought that a government could carry on the business of this country with only a provisional arrangement? There was one point more which his feelings induced him to touch upon. That his noble friend, who had been lately elevated to the peerage, and who had in early life walked hand-in-hand together with him, under an individual who had carried the glories of this country to a higher pitch than any other minister;—that that noble lord should at this moment find those individuals, to whom he had been opposed for the last twenty years, now supporting the government, and quietly contemplate such a state of things, he could not understand. He was consistent in the view which he took of this subject; and though he might be told, that it was not right to state these things, yet his feelings were too strong to allow him to be silent. He did not attempt to take a part in public affairs; but the present state of things was so peculiar as to force him to state his sentiments. In the new arrangement, some noble lords had been elevated to that House; but they must not come there to lord it over the House, or to put down any of their lordships when speaking his sentiments.
Lord Goderichsaid, he thought he should be wanting in respect to their lordships, among whom he had been so recently introduced, if he abstained from making a few observations, in consequence of what had fallen from his noble friend; for so he thought he must still call him, although he had been pleased to designate him as part of the rubbish of which the government was formed. But if that government was composed of rubbish, still he would not consent to be beaten in detail by discussing incidentally, any subject that might be introduced; especially when a noble earl was prepared to open a strong battery upon the building, which was to blow all the rubbish away. Let that be done. He asked no better; and he cared

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not one straw for the consequences. The only circumstance which placed him in the situation he now held, and the only circumstance which made him a member of that House was, an anxious desire on his part to prevent that very dissolution of the government, with a wish to cause which he had been reproached; for, if he had not yielded—he would not go into details—to the most earnest representations not to press his anxiety to relieve himself from office at a time when, if he had pressed his desire, it would have endangered the existence of government—if he had not yielded to those representations, he should before now have taken leave of public life. He therefore asked for a fair field and no favour, and would abide by the result.
The Marquis of Londonderrydid not mean to apply the term rubbish to the noble lord. He had formed part of the old administration; and he meant to apply the term to those only who had newly come in.
The Marquis of Angleseaobserved, that he was, in consequence of that explanation, designated as part of the rubbish. After the plain explanation he had given of the motives which induced him to accept the situation which he filled, he should not trouble the House with any further observations.
Lord Kingstated, that allusion having been made to a building, he would give an explanation of the word rubbish. Any person who was practically acquainted with building houses must know, that what was sent away from the building was the rubbish. The noble marquis seemed to have a mist before his eyes when he wished to see an end of the present government. The noble marquis thought that it could not stand; but he was convinced that it would stand, in spite of all the efforts that might be made to the contrary. The noble marquis had stated, that the architect found great difficulty in making a foundation; but he thought that the present building, with the scaffolding before it, was much more ornamental and more useful than the old building. As the noble marquis was a general, he would remind him of the answer given by a French general to a German officer, who, after drawing out his battalions, offered to fight the Frenchman. The French general said, that it was his plan never to fight but when it pleased himself; so that the noble lord need not feel surprised, if those persons
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whom he had been addressing should act directly contrary to his advice.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that the present subject had been brought on by the intemperance of one of the cabinet ministers. He had thought that a noble lord, long practised in that House, would not have interfered to put down a noble lord not in the habit of addressing the House. With respect to what had fallen from his noble friend, he had no doubt but that some part of the present cabinet held their offices only provisionally. He understood that the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department held his situation only provisionally. He was greatly surprised that his noble friend should have taken place. Indeed, they all seemed to feel an anxious desire to retain place at the expense of political consistency. He believed that the hon. gentleman at the head of the government had, from his love of office, placed himself in a dilemma from which he would not easily extricate himself. He was under the necessity of bringing forward that measure, of which he had so long been the distinguished and violent advocate, or else he was deceiving the country. Ambition was his ruling principle. His ambition had deprived the government of those illustrious men, who had so long conducted public affairs to their own credit, and to the great benefit of the country.
The Earl of Harrowbyhardly thought it necessary to say a single word upon his interruption of the noble marquis. He had conceived that the question had been put and carried; and under that impression, he had interrupted the noble marquis. He believed every one would acknowledge it to be impossible for him to interfere for the purpose of preventing any noble lord from stating his views and sentiments, whether they might be more or less pleasant to him. He was happy that the noble lord opposite had given notice of his motion, and that their lordships were to have a full and complete discussion; for he did not like to take up detached parts of a subject. Though he was there in his place, he was not there by his own wish. On the contrary, his wish would have been, at the period of life when his faculties for official duty might be supposed to be diminishing, to withdraw himself from the public service: but he had not hesitated an instant as to the line of conduct which he had to pursue. The reasons which in-

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duced him to take the course he had followed, there would be a future opportunity to explain: but in the meantime he would say, that if a man could practically do any thing which would lead, more or less directly, to procure that object, the attainment of which was the most to be desired of any object in the whole political hemisphere, there was no sacrifice of feeling, no sacrifice of personal views, which a man was not bound to make. No greater sacrifice could have been made on his part, severed as he was from his political and personal friends. He was grieved that he was no longer sitting beside them; but that was not the only sacrifice he had made; and there was nothing which he would not willingly sacrifice, rather than take away the smallest grain or atom of his weight from that scale which he wished to preponderate.
The Earl of Winchilseawithdrew his motion, and said that he would, on Monday, fix the day when he would call their lordships attention to the state of the nation.