Earl Grosvenor(who spoke from the ministerial side) said, that he had two petitions to present to their lordships upon the subject of the Roman Catholic Claims. On presenting these petitions, he would take the opportunity of making a few remarks upon the subject. He certainly thought that this question would not be much longer a subject for the consideration of their lordships. He was quite satisfied that the claims of the Catholics had at least gained something by the change which had taken place in the government of the country. Unfortunately, however, unfavourable prejudices still existed upon the subject. In Ireland those prejudices were almost wholly removed; and in this country he believed—indeed he knew—they had considerably diminished. Still he thought, notwithstanding these circumstances, that the question of the Catholic claims should not be prematurely pressed forward; and he held this opinion, because, as the country had now an administration composed of persons nearly all favourable to the question, and as they formerly had an administration the majority of which was against even entertaining the subject, he thought it would be prudent to pause. The administration was now no longer hostile to the consideration of the subject; for as far as the changes in the government went, they were favourable to the question, but still he should be anxious, under these circumstances, for a little delay before the subject was reconsidered. There was another reason why he wished for delay. It was on account of that circumstance which had been so strenuously urged by those individuals who were hostile to granting 449 the Catholic claims; namely, the conversion of the Catholics. It had been objected to the friends of the measure for granting relief to the Catholics, that the conversion which was now going forward in Ireland would of itself work such a change in that country, as would put an end to the question. Well then, he would say—upon the supposition that this conversion was actually going on—let time be allowed, in order that their lordships might see what beneficial results were likely to arise from it. Let their lordships wait during the summer, during the autumn, and during the winter. Let them allow that time for this system of conversion to work, and for their lordships to see whether it would put an end to the question. But no man, he was sure, could doubt, that if parliament were to give to the Catholics what they asked, that conversion would be rapid. No one could suppose that capital could go into Ireland, while restrictions upon the Catholics were in force. But, if the question of Catholic emancipation was settled, capital would flow into the country, and in the course of half a century there would be scarcely a Catholic in the land. He certainly hoped that, under the altered circumstances of the country, those restrictions would be withdrawn; but his object at present in urging delay was, because he had heard that some of the friends to the measure were anxious to press it. Under an altered state of circumstances, we might be able to withdraw a large portion of our army from that country; but he was quite sure that, if the present system was allowed to continue, and if the just claims of the Catholics were not granted, the peace and prosperity of the nation must be destroyed.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the noble earl might, if he thought proper, make volunteer speeches on the Catholic question whenever he presented petitions, though he could not think that the regular course; but of this he was quite sure, that, so long as the administration was constituted as it now was, there never would be any opportunity of discussing the question of Catholic emancipation with advantage. However important the Catholic question was, there was now another question of paramount importance, for it applied not only to the Catholics, but to the country at large. Since the House had last separated, a re-construction of the 450 government had taken place, on what principles, or whether in the absence of all principles, he could not pretend to say [hear, hear]. That it had not taken place on any principles which were calculated to give permanence or stability to the new administration, no one who looked at the opposite benches could deny. It appeared that several noble lords had resigned the offices they recently held, and, for having done so, they were most grossly assailed; it being imputed to them, that they had acted in a spirit of unconstitutional dictation to the sovereign, as to the choice of his ministers. It was only due to the unblemished characters of those noble lords, that they should take this, the first opportunity that presented itself, of stating to the House the circumstances attending their resignation [cheers].
§ The Earl of Eldonthen rose. He said, that his majesty's late servants had been charged with having acted in concert, and that for the unpardonable object of dictating to the sovereign what choice he should make in the selection of his constitutional advisers. After having been so long a member of that House, and so long the steady advocate of principles directly opposed to a doctrine so unconstitutional, he hoped he might be permitted to assure their lordships, that this charge was a base and infamous calumny; so far as he himself was concerned, or so far as it might be supposed to apply to those distinguished persons who had retired with him from office. That it could be supposed that he, who had, for so many years, discharged the duties of his office with an honest sincerity of purpose, through evil report and through good report, should have been guilty of the offence of dictating to his sovereign what persons he should choose to form his government, subject, of course, to the constitutional control of both Houses of parliament, was what he never could hear, without telling those who made the charge, that it was a base and gross falsehood [loud cheers]—[His lordship here became sensibly affected.]—He had felt it right, for the sake of the sovereign whom he had served—he had felt it right, as well out of duty to that sovereign himself, as also out of duty to his royal father, whom he had also served—to state, that he never disguised from him his real sentiments on any proposition that might have been made to him in the relation in which he stood to the Crown. And he must 451 observe, before he proceeded further, that he knew not whether the proposition of a noble earl (Grosvenor) could be held good, that capital and conversion would go together. Indeed, he wished that the noble earl were placed at the head of the government, if it were true that capital in money, and conversion in religion, would be co-incident. Should that be the case, then, in the name of God, let the noble earl be minister; but, for his own part, he had seen quite enough to convince him, that the proposition could not be sustained. As to his resignation, he would state it, in the presence of those who knew that he was speaking the truth, that with him the thought of resigning was not a new one. He had, for years back, felt it his duty to consider whether he ought not to have quitted office long before, and, if he had still retained it in opposition to his own inclination, it was only because he had been urged and importuned to do so. Upon this question he had no personal feelings as to the individual who might happen to be placed at the head of the government. But, if his majesty had a constitutional and uncontrollable right to choose his ministers, no man would honestly discharge his duty, without considering whether, under the selection which his majesty had made, he could usefully serve him [hear, hear]. He might be right, or he might be wrong; but, supposing him to be wrong as to the view he took of the great importance of the Catholic question, he would now say, that it ought not to be postponed any longer, but that some decision ought to be come to upon it. He was aware, however, that he himself had, on more than one occasion, been instrumental in postponing it. But he thought the time had now arrived, when some decisive measure ought to be adopted. He must also observe, that he had intended to resign, even if this question had not created any difference of opinion in his majesty's councils. Could he possibly under such circumstances have continued with honour to hold his situation, or remain in office under any other principle, but that if he could get no better he must Submit?—With respect to his principles upon this question of the Catholic claims, as connected with the principles of the right hon. gentleman who was placed in the situation of Prime Minister, giving him credit for having as zealously and candidly entertained the opinion which he held 452 upon the subject as he himself did, he could not see how his secession from office could be inconvenient to that right hon. gentleman. As far as private feelings could have influenced him to change the opinion which he had formed, he certainly would often have wished to change that opinion. He had considered the question over and over again, but he found it impossible to change his opinion; and though he found it possible for him to serve in administration with such a man at the head of it as lord Liverpool, yet with an administration with the present Prime Minister (and he wished to speak with respect of that gentleman, giving him full credit for the sincerity of his opinion), when the question was with him, whether he should relinquish his purpose of resigning and go on with the administration, he found that he could not do it. He thought it his duty to state to some members of that House, towards whom he had every sentiment of regard, and who he knew entertained a contrary opinion to what he did, his own opinion; which was, that if the question of the Catholic claims should be carried, there was an end to the religious liberties of this country, and that with the destruction of those religious liberties, the civil liberties must cease also; and to his dying day he should support that opinion. He could not, therefore, after having formed such an opinion, conscientiously give in to those views, which must be the views of the Prime Minister, of granting the claims of the Catholics, whether those views were to be carried into immediate execution, or whether they were to be suspended, for the purpose for which they only could be suspended, of more effectually securing the success of that question. Under such circumstances, it was impossible for him to be part of the government. As for himself, it had been stated that he had concerted with another person in sending in his resignation. The person alluded to was a gentleman for whom he entertained the sincerest regard and esteem; and he thought it no less than his duty to say, that that gentleman knew nothing at all about his sending in his resignation. He believed the same to be the case with respect to the other persons who had sent in their resignations. He believed that if the matter had been taken into a court of justice, it would have been blown out of the court, before any thing had been offered in defence. He had understood that the 453 writs were to have been moved on the Thursday before the holidays, and he had made up his mind if that measure should take place, then to send in his resignation. His intention had been long formed upon the subject. The letter which informed him who it was that was to be Prime Minister, stated in one single word, that the administration had been formed upon the principles of the administration of lord Liverpool. He never could agree that the administration was formed upon similar principles. Lord Liverpool's administration was formed upon principles totally different from those upon which the present one was formed. The earl of Liverpool, he recollected, was as zealous, honest, and candid an opponent of the Catholic claims, as he gave full credit to the right hon. gentleman who was now Prime Minister, for being a zealous, honest, and candid supporter of those claims. He had only to say that the communications made by those noble personages to whom he had before alluded, were made without any concert with him. He knew nothing of them whatever; and, under such circumstances, he thought every candid man would admit, that there was an end of the charge of concert, as far as he was concerned. There was, in his opinion, no censure too harsh for the man who should presume to dictate to his majesty, as to the choice of his ministers; but at the same time he must say, that if that man were asked by his majesty for his advice on the subject, no censure would be too harsh for him, if he refused to tender to his Sovereign his honest and sincere advice. If there were any persons who advocated a contrary opinion, he was proud to say that he was not to be found in their number; nay, he would add further, that more unpardonable conduct had been falsely attributed to him, than had ever been exhibited by any individual towards his Sovereign. If their lordships gave him any credit for sincerity, they would believe the statement which he had just made to them. He assured their lordships, that there was no consideration which would induce him to withhold his efforts to preserve the constitution, as settled at the Revolution, for the sake of our religion, our laws, and our liberties—our civil and religious liberties—which must co-exist or perish together. He could not lay aside the benefit of that experience which we had gained previously to that 454 settlement,—a settlement which, when originally made, received the sanction of those individuals whose descendants were now most anxious to overturn it. His whole life had been devoted to the defence of that constitution, and to the resistance of the concessions now proposed to be given to the Catholics; because he had been convinced from his youth upwards, that ecclesiastical tyranny produced civil tyranny likewise; and because he was satisfied, that unless ecclesiastical liberty was preserved, civil liberty was endangered,—a fact which had been proved to demonstration by the events of the last four years. In the opinions which he had formed upon this question, he might be wrong; indeed, he would not pretend to say that he was further right than this—that his own light had governed his own conduct, and that he had acted throughout with the utmost sincerity and consistency. He trusted that as he had never doubted the sincerity of noble lords, whilst they were supporting opinions opposed to his own, their lordships would not doubt at present of the sincerity of his motives. He trusted that he might be permitted to conclude with the sincere expression of the obligations which he owed to their lordships, for the kindness with which they had always supported him in the discharge of the arduous duties which he had just resigned. He begged their lordships to believe that he felt the deepest gratitude for the forbearance which they had uniformly shown to his failings and his feelings in that House; and assured them that he should never lose a sense of it, so long as he retained,the functions of memory [hear, hear].
§ The Duke of Wellingtonrose, and spoke as follows:*
My Lords: I do not intend to trouble your lordships with a discussion on the subject of this petition, or to dispute with the noble lord (Grosvenor) whether the petitioners, seeking for further concessions to the Roman Catholics, have chosen the time most propitious to the prayer of their petition, considering that the administration are favourably disposed to grant such concessions; but my object in claiming your lordships' attention is, to answer the call of the noble baron on my right.
There is no man more sensible than I * From the original edition printed for Hatchard and Son, Piccadilly. 455 am, that the House of Lords have nothing to say to the changes which may take place in his majesty's councils. It is his majesty's prerogative to appoint his own ministers, and to change them as he pleases; and the House of Lords cannot take into consideration the special circumstances under which such changes have been made, except in particular cases, in which an administration has been removed in consequence of an address from this House. I have, therefore, to apologize to your lordships for taking up your time upon this subject, for which my only excuse is the manner in which I have been treated by the corrupt press, in the pay of the government.
I do not mean to attribute this misconduct to the noble lords personally (the ministers sitting in the House); but the fact is certain, that I have been accused, in these recent transactions, of conspiracy, combination, dictation to my sovereign, and nearly every crime, short of high treason, of which a subject could be guilty; and I should be more than man if I could resist availing myself of the opportunity of justifying myself, which the question of the noble baron has given me.
My lords, my conduct has been called in question in two respects; first, my quitting the cabinet; secondly, my resignation of the command of the army. I do not consider that I have any right to reveal any thing that ever passed in conversation with his majesty, or in his councils; but fortunately I can elucidate my conduct without making such disclosures; and without disclosing any fact mentioned to me in conversation, which was not likewise mentioned to others. I must trouble your lordships with some details upon this subject; but your lordships may rely upon it that I will detain you as short a time as possible.
On the evening of the 10th of April, I received from the right hon. gentleman now at the head of his majesty's councils, a letter, which I am about to read to the House.
"Foreign Office, April 10th, 6 P. M. 1827.
"My Dear Duke of Wellington:—The king has, at an audience, from which I am just returned, been graciously pleased to signify to me his majesty's commands, to lay before his majesty, with as little loss of time as possible, a plan of arrangements for the reconstruction of the administration.—In executing these commands it 456 will be as much my own wish, as it is my duty to his majesty, to adhere to the principles on which lord Liverpool's government has so long acted together.—I need not add how essentially the accomplishment must depend upon your grace's continuing a member of the cabinet.
"Ever, my dear Duke of Wellington, your Grace's sincere and faithful servant,
§ "GEORGE CANNING."
"To his Grace the Duke of Wellington."
I beg your lordships will observe, that this letter does not state of whom it was intended that the proposed administration should be formed, although I have since learned that that information was conveyed to my colleagues; nor who was to be at the head of the government; nor was I invited, as others were, to receive further explanations, nor referred to any body who could give such; nor indeed did consider the invitation that I should belong to the cabinet, to be conveyed in those terms to which I had been accustomed in my constant intercourse with the right hon. gentleman up to that moment, nor to have been calculated to induce me to continue in the administration about to be formed. I was determined, however, that I would not allow such considerations to influence my answer; and I wrote to the right hon. gentleman, on the same night, what I am about to read to the House.
"London, April 10, 1827.
"My Dear Mr. Canning:—I have received your letter of this evening, informing me that the king had desired you to lay before his majesty a plan for the reconstruction of the administration; and that, in executing these commands, it was your wish to adhere to the principles on which lord Liverpool's government had so long acted together.—I anxiously desire to be able to serve his majesty, as I have done hitherto in his cabinet, with the same colleagues. But before I can give an answer to your obliging proposition, I should wish to know who the person is whom you intend to propose to his majesty as the head of the government?
"Ever, my dear Mr. Canning, your's most sincerely,
§ "WELLINGTON."
"The Right Hon. George Canning."
The House will observe, that I expressed my anxious desire to form part of a cabinet, with "the same colleagues"—the right hon. gentleman having omitted all mention of colleagues in his letter to me— 457 but that I postponed to give my answer, to what I termed his "obliging proposition" (although I think it was scarcely an invitation) till I should learn the name of the person intended to be recommended by the right hon. gentleman to his majesty as the head of the administration. To this note the right hon. gentleman wrote me, on the afternoon of the 11th, the answer which I am about to read to the House.
"Foreign Office, April 11, 1827.
"My Dear Duke of Wellington:—I believed it to be so generally understood, that the king usually intrusts the formation of an administration to the individual whom it is his majesty's gracious intention to place at the head of it; that it did not occur to me, when I communicated to your grace yesterday the commands which I had just received from his majesty, to add, that, in the present instance, his majesty does not intend to depart from the usual course of proceedings on such occasions.—I am sorry to have delayed some hours this answer to your grace's letter; but from the nature of the subject, I did not like to forward it without having previously submitted it (together with your grace's letter) to his majesty.
"Ever, my dear Duke of Wellington, your grace's sincere and faithful servant,
§ "GEORGE CANNING."
"His Grace the Duke of Wellington."
I will postpone my observations upon this answer for a few minutes, and I will only request the House to remark here, that it was not calculated to remove the impression which the right hon. gentleman's first letter had made upon my mind; namely, that he did not wish me to belong to the cabinet.
However, as the House will observe from my reply, that impression was not the reason which influenced my conduct in desiring to retire from the cabinet; nor did that impression, or the tone and temper of the right hon. gentleman's letters to me, influence the tone and temper of my answers to the right hon. gentleman. This is what I wrote to him, in answer to his letter of the 11th.
"London, April 11, 1827.
"My Dear Mr. Canning:—I have received your letter of this day; and I did not understand the one of yesterday evening as you have now explained it to me.—I understood from yourself, that you had had in contemplation another arrange- 458 ment; and I do not believe that the practice to which you refer has been so invariable as to enable me to affix a meaning to your letter, which its words did not in my opinion convey. I trust that you will have experienced no inconvenience from the delay of this answer, which I assure you has been occasioned by my desire to discover a mode by which I could continue united with my recent colleagues.—I sincerely wish that I could bring my mind to the conclusion that, with the best intentions on your part, your government could be conducted practically on the principles of that of lord Liverpool; that it would be generally so considered; or that it would be adequate to meet our difficulties in a manner satisfactory to the king, or conducive to the interests of the country.—As, however, I am convinced that these principles must be abandoned eventually; that all our measures would be viewed with suspicion by the usual supporters of the government; that I could do no good in the cabinet; and that at last I should be obliged to separate myself from it, at the moment at which such separation would be more inconvenient to the king's service than it can be at present, I must beg you to request his majesty to excuse me from belonging to his councils.
"Ever, my dear Mr. Canning, your's most sincerely,
§ "WELLINGTON."
I will here leave the question of my retirement from the cabinet. I have no objection, if noble lords choose, to discuss all the reasons stated in this letter; but I believe it is better to avoid such discussion. I will, however, observe, that the events which have occurred in the short space of time which has elapsed since the termination of this correspondence will tend to show that I did not form an incorrect judgment of the matters described in my letter of the 11th of April; and I am much mistaken if experience does not prove hereafter that I was quite right.
But before I go into the discussion of my reasons for resigning the command of the army, I will address a few words to your lordships, upon the charges which have been made against me.
I am accused of having deserted and abandoned my sovereign. My lords, I have always considered that the most important of all the acts which the sovereign of this country has to perform, is the choice of his ministers; and most parti- 459 cularly the selection of that person who is to fill the office of first minister.
In making this choice, the sovereign determines upon what principle of policy his domestic government, or his foreign relations are to be conducted; and he chooses the men to administer his government whose opinions arc consistent with those according to which his majesty has decided that the policy of the government shall be guided.
I will now apply this principle to the case which has recently occurred; and I will suppose that his majesty has selected a gentleman to be his first minister, who differs in opinion from his majesty upon an important question of domestic policy, such as the question of further concession to the Roman Catholics; and that, I being called to his majesty's councils, agree in opinion with his majesty, but differ from his minister. My lords, in these cases there can be no secret understandings in this country. Men must act openly and fairly, whether in parliament or in the cabinet. His majesty and the country would look to me, and to those in the cabinet who should entertain the same opinions as me, that the acts of the government should be consistent with its professed policy; whereas I should find those acts daily leading to a different result. I beg your lordships will refer to what the right hon. gentleman himself (Mr. Canning) said on a former occasion, of the nature of the preponderating influence of a first minister in such questions, and particularly in this question of domestic policy; and to observe the arguments of the noble lord (Grosvenor) in the commencement of this discussion, which had for their object to prove to your lordships, that nothing ought to be done by your lordships or the public upon the Roman Catholic question at the present moment; because the concession of every thing was certain, in consequence only of the nomination of the right hon. gentleman as first minister.
While adverting to this part of the subject, I beg leave to suggest to your lordships an important distinction between lord Liverpool and the right hon. gentleman. The object of lord Liverpool's policy was, not to take any thing from the Roman Catholics, but to govern the country fairly and impartially according to the existing laws. That of the right hon. gentleman (who, it must be remembered, is the most 460 able and active of all the partizans of the other side of the question) is, to take an important alteration of the laws. The action of the two systems cannot be compared. Lord Liverpool might act impartially; and, composed as his cabinet was, he was under the necessity of so acting, even if it could be supposed that his desire was to act otherwise. But the influence of the right hon. gentleman's government must have the effect, even if not so desired by him, of forwarding his own opinions and views of policy, notwithstanding his professions of an adherence to the policy of lord Liverpool's government.
I would ask then, how it was possible for me to go into the cabinet, and give the right hon. gentleman that fair confidence and support which, as head of the government, he would have had a right to claim from me, when I knew that the necessary result of his system must be, to bring the government to that state, which I think, and which his majesty is supposed to think, one of peril? His majesty, however, thought proper to appoint the right hon. gentleman to be his minister; and I had no resource but to withdraw.
But it has been stated, that I withdrew myself because his majesty would not submit to my dictation and threats, in case I should not myself be appointed his minister; and this accusation is most curiously coupled with another; namely, that his majesty offered to make me his minister, and that I refused.
My lords, those know but little of his majesty who suppose, that any man can dare to dictate to him, much less to threaten him. My lords, his majesty never offered to me to make me his minister. His majesty knew as well as I did, that I was, and must be, totally out of the question; and I so considered myself, and so stated myself repeatedly; and I was no party to any suggestion, that I should be the person to fill the vacancy occasioned by the misfortune which we all deplore.
Do your lordships suppose, that, having raised myself to the highest rank in the profession which I had previously followed from my youth; that, having been appointed to the highest situation in that profession—for I may say I raised myself, without indicating any desire to underrate my obligations to my noble, gallant friends, the general officers of the army, by whom 461 I am surrounded, and still less those which I owe to his majesty for his most gracious favour and kindness, I may safely say, that his majesty could not have placed me where I was, if I had not rendered some service to the state deserving of his approbation;—I say then, that having raised myself to such a station in my profession, I could not be desirous of leaving it in order to seek to be appointed to be the head of the government, a situation for which I am sensible that I am not qualified; and to which, moreover, neither his majesty, nor the right hon. gentleman, nor any wished to see me called.
Do your lordships think it possible, that I was not gratified by being restored to my old relations of command over my old friends and companions; and to have attained the power of recommending them to his majesty for the professional rewards of their services, after having passed my life in exciting and directing their exertions?
Does any man believe, that I would give up such gratification in order to be appointed to a station, to the duties of which I was unaccustomed, in which I was not wished, and for which I was not qualified; as it must be obvious to your lordships, that not being in the habits of addressing your lordships, I should have been found, besides other disqualifications, incapable of displaying as they ought to be displayed, or of defending the measures of government as they ought to be defended in this House, by the person thus honoured by his majesty's confidence? My lords, I should have been worse than mad if I had thought of such a thing.
Then, my lords, it is said, that I endeavoured to attain this object by means of concert, conspiracy, and combination with others. My lords, I assert, that till I wrote to the right hon. gentleman the letter of the 11th of April, which I have read to your lordships, no man knew what line I intended to follow. If I concerted, conspired, and combined with any body, let it be said with whom.
There were thirteen of us in the cabinet. The hand of Providence has deprived us of one; and there are six, including the right hon. gentleman himself, still remaining in the cabinet. My right hon. friend, the member for the University of Oxford, is unanimously acquitted; but I would ask the noble lords present, whether they ever heard of any thing like the acts 462 with which we have been charged? There is my noble friend, the Chancellor of the Duchy, who resigned his office, and was afterwards induced to accept it again, did he ever hear of any thing like conspiracy, and the other crimes with Which we have been charged? if he has, I beg him to inform his present colleagues and the House of the facts. If he has not, and I know he has not, I call upon any man to come forward, and say if he knows that such conspiracy or combination existed; and I will engage to prove that it is false that I ever was a party to such.
The other point to which I wish to draw your lordships' attention, is my resignation of the command of the army, which I conveyed to his majesty in a letter, dated April the 12th, of which I will now read to your lordships the extract applicable to the subject.
"Mr. Canningwill, I doubt not, have submitted to your majesty the letter which I have written to him in answer to the one announcing to me, that he had been appointed by your majesty to be at the head of your government.—I have frequently had occasion to express to your majesty my most grateful acknowledgements for your majesty's most gracious favour and kindness towards me; and your majesty can now more easily conceive than I can express, the pain and grief which I feel upon requesting your majesty to excuse me from attendance in your councils; and in consequence thereof, and adverting to the tenor of the letters which I have re-received from your majesty's minister, by your majesty's command, upon asking your majesty's permission to lay at your feet those offices which connect me with your majesty's government."
My lords, I held two offices under his majesty's government; that of commander-in-chief, and that of master-general of the Ordnance. Having declared to the right hon. gentleman, that I could not serve in the cabinet presided by him, my office of master-general of the Ordnance became vacant. I might still have continued to hold the office of commander-in-chief, notwithstanding the political circumstances as set forth in my letter of the 11th, which separated me from the councils of the government. My illustrious and lamented predecessor in office had done so; and I should have followed his example in this respect, as I had endeavoured to do in others. Indeed, I 463 never could see any reason why political differences of opinion should prevent me from commanding the army at the Horse-guards more than they would an army in the field, if circumstances should render it necessary so to employ my services. But besides political circumstances, the tone and temper of the right hon. gentleman's letters, and particularly of that of the 11th (which had been previously submitted to his majesty, and was, therefore, a communication from the king), were of a nature to make it impossible for me to retain the command of the army.
My lords, I must trouble you with a short statement of the nature of the office of commander-in-chief; and of its relations towards his majesty on the one hand, and the right hon. gentleman on the other. The commander-in-chief must necessarily be daily in confidential relations with his majesty on all points of the service. He must likewise be so with the person filling the situation filled by the right hon. gentleman. Although the commander-in-chief has nothing to say to the finance of the army, yet there are questions under discussion, every day respecting allowances to officers and soldiers, and expenses of every description, upon which the right hon. gentleman cannot decide in a satisfactory manner, unless after reference to the commander-in-chief.
But this is not all. If the right hon. gentleman wishes to reinforce or diminish the army in Portugal, or to recall it altogether, he must consult with the person holding the office of commander-in-chief.
In the same manner the reinforcement of the troops in any of his majesty's possessions abroad or at home must be a matter of concert with the commander-in-chief; and the right hon. gentleman will find when he comes to make up his budget, that he must concert his arrangements with the commander-in chief. How was it possible for me to consider that I was likely to possess the right hon. gentleman's confidence on any of these points, after receiving from him, in his majesty's name, such a rebuke as was contained in his letter to me of the 1lth?
But it has been stated by the right hon. gentleman's friends, that I had given him cause of offence by my letter of the 10th, and had provoked his answer of the llth; and it is but fair to consider that letter, and to see whether it did give the right 464 hon. gentleman any ground to complain. That letter contained a clear distinct answer to the one which I had received from the right hon. gentleman, as far as I was enabled to give it, in the usual terms of my constant correspondence with the right hon. gentleman. I stated my anxious desire to remain in the cabinet with "my recent colleagues;" and for the purpose of receiving information, I asked who was to be at the head of the government, in hopes that the information which I should receive might be such as to enable me to belong to the cabinet.
I must here inform your lordships, that in a conversation which I had had with the right hon. gentleman, on the 2nd of April, he had explained to me, that in case his majesty should commission him to suggest arrangements for the reconstruction of the administration, the plan which he had in contemplation was, to propose, that the right hon. gentleman, late the chancellor of the Exchequer should be called to the House of Lords, and be made first lord of the Treasury; and in case the right hon. gentleman had in answer to my letter of the 10th, informed me, that he still had that plan in contemplation, it was my intention to suggest to him, and to endeavour to persuade him to adopt one better calculated, in my opinion, to keep the government united. Your lordships will see, therefore, that the question asked in my letter of the 10th was fully justified, and fairly founded, upon a communication made me on the 2nd of April, by the right hon. gentleman himself. The question was fully justified likewise by former practice.
In the year 1812, a noble relation of mine (now lord-lieutenant of Ireland), waited upon a noble earl, now in this House (Grey) and a noble lord (Grenville), whose absence on account of illness nobody laments more than I do, by command of his majesty, then prince Regent, with a view to consider of the formation of an administration; and lord Wellesley, in the course of the discussion upon that subject declared, that he considered himself merely as the instrument of executing the commands of his royal highness the prince Regent on that occasion. He even went so far as to say, that he neither claimed nor desired for himself any share in the administration. Upon that same occasion, the right hon. gentleman himself apprized lord Liverpool, on the part 465 of lord Wellesley, that the prince Regent had laid these commands on lord Wellesley.
Subsequently in the same year, 1812, lord Moira had the prince Regent's instructions to take steps towards the formation of a new ministry. It does not appear that lord Moira, or the noble earl, or the noble baron, to whom he addressed himself, considered that he was to be the head of the administration which he had a commission to form. In addressing this House on the 12th of June, his lordship said, "I came to the subject unfettered in every war; not an individual was named for a seal; and no place was pointed out even for myself."
How then, my lords, could I take it for granted, that his majesty had nominated the right hon. gentleman to be his first minister, only because the right hon. gentleman informed me that his majesty had signified to him his commands to lay before his majesty a plan of arrangements for the reconstruction of the administration?
It is obvious, that I could not give the right hon. gentleman an answer to his proposition, that I should be one of the cabinet, till I should ascertain who was to be the prime minister; and the necessity of ascertaining this point was my only motive for asking the question.
I will now show from the best authority possible—that of the right hon. gentleman himself—that the question might be asked without offence.
On the—of May, 1812, Mr. Perceval having just then been assassinated, lord Liverpool waited upon the right hon. gentleman, by command of his majesty, then prince Regent, to invite the right hon. gentleman to become a member of his majesty's councils. The first question it appears from a memorandum drawn by the right hon. gentleman himself, which the right hon. gentleman asked was, Who is to be the first lord of the Treasury? and it does not appear that the noble lord rebuked the right hon. gentleman for asking that question.
The negotiation failed for other reasons, not worth discussing at present, excepting to observe, that the right hon. gentleman then thought that the influence of the head of the government was likely to be paramount in the discussion of the Roman Catholic question. Surely, my lords, I could not merit a rebuke for asking the 466 right hon. gentleman, in 1827, the same question which he, under nearly similar circumstances, asked lord Liverpool in 1812.
But, my lords, there is another view of the case, which ought to be taken. Although I was rebuked on the 11th for asking this question on the 10th, and was told that the practice was so generally understood, that it did not occur to the right hon. gentleman to add that his majesty did not intend to depart from the usual course of proceeding on such occasions; the fact is, that the right hon. gentleman was not appointed his majesty's minister till the afternoon of the 12th, according to what he has stated himself in another place.
Indeed, my lords, it appears very clearly, from the right hon. gentleman's letter to me of the 11th, that till he had laid my letter of the 10th before his majesty he had not been appointed his minister. If he had, he might, without reference to his majesty, have stated the fact with as much of rebuke as he might think proper to use. I cannot believe that the right hon. gentleman laid my letter of the 10th, and his answer of the 11th, before his majesty, in order to cover the rebuke, which this answer contained, with his majesty's sacred name and protection. I say it unfeignedly, that I believe the right hon. gentleman is as incapable of doing so, as I believe I am myself. My lords, the conclusion is obvious, the step of laying these letters before his majesty must have been taken, because in fact the right hon. gentleman was not his majesty's minister at the moment he received my question; as appears indeed quite clearly from his own statement in another place.
Upon the whole then, I considered, when I received that letter of the 11th, that my situation, in relation both to his majesty and the right hon. gentleman, was so altered, as that not thinking it proper, for the reason stated in my letter of the 11th, to remain in the cabinet, I did not think I could continue in command of the army with advantage to his majesty's service. If I was hasty in coming to this decision, or the decision was founded in error, I ought to have been informed. I had always been on the best terms of goodwill and confidence with all my colleagues; and, I believe there was nobody who enjoyed more of the confidence, even of the right hon. gentleman himself, 467 than I did. I would appeal to the noble lords (the ministers present), whether I ever made difficulties, or ever acted otherwise than with a view to accommodate differences of opinion. Then, my lords, if I took a hasty or intemperate view of this case, I ask them why they did not come forward and render me the service, which I had more than once rendered to others, by representing to me that I was wrong?
Such a step has never been taken by them; and the reason is obvious; it did not suit the right hon. gentleman's views, that I should remain in command of the army, unless I should belong to his cabinet. I beg pardon for troubling your lordships at such length upon a question personal to myself; and I return my best thanks for the attention with which you have listened to what I have had occasion to address to you.
§ Lord Bexleysaid, he entirely acquitted the noble duke, and those other members of the late administration who had resigned, of any thing like a conspiracy. The grounds upon which he himself had felt called on to resign were, that he had reason to believe the same latitude would not be given to the members of the new cabinet, in respect of the Catholic question, which had been enjoyed by those who constituted lord Liverpool's ministry. On this subject it, however, appeared, that he had been mistaken; and as soon as he was undeceived, he hastened to retrace the step into which incorrect intelligence had betrayed him.
The Earl of Mansfieldbegan, by disclaiming the influence of individual feelings. He expressed considerable doubts as to the wisdom of the course pursued by those members of the late cabinet, who professed to advocate the Protestant cause. He believed, that, if their communications had been more unreserved towards their adherents in the country, they would have been ably backed by those adherents, and by a large majority of their lordships' House, to make representations to his majesty, of such weight, as would have induced the king to form a mixed administration, in which Protestant principles should have decidedly predominated. He gave them full credit, for having acted most honourably; but he entertained considerable doubts, whether their conduct deserved to be called judicious. They either foresaw its consequences or they did 468 not. If the former, they could have but little claim to sagacity; and, if the latter, still less. Still, he begged to assure the noble duke, and the noble and learned earl near him, that his general respect for both was not on that account diminished. Their long and distinguished services could never be remembered otherwise than with gratitude; nor were his sentiments different with respect to a right hon. gentleman, the late Secretary for the Home Department. In reference to the noble and learned earl, he felt it impossible to do justice to his eminent services. He would fain express the deep regret which filled his mind in contemplating the retirement of that illustrious individual. The common vice was to worship the rising sun, and to be forgetful of the benefits of the sun that was setting. Nothing, however, but their presence, could, in his case, cripple the just need of praise to which they were both entitled. Ungrateful, indeed, must the country be, if it could ever cease to recollect, that its present pre-eminence was more owing to the noble duke, than to any individual that could be named. As to the noble earl, who had so long been at the head of a profession, for which he entertained peculiar respect—his services, his great talents, his political character, his discrimination as a judge, his ability as a legislator, were, he had the satisfaction to think, duly appreciated in that House, and by the best portion of society at large. When party feelings had subsided, and calumny was at an end, posterity, a rigid censor, but impartial judge, would do him tardy justice. As to the late Home Secretary, he had, in another place, explained the principles and motives of his conduct, and it was satisfactory to think, that, through the agency of the public press, they would be made known in every corner of the empire. The strongest eulogium which it would be possible to pronounce on that right hon. gentleman, was the regret expressed by the late Foreign Secretary, and the hope which he appeared to indulge, that the services of the former would not be permanently lost to the country. However, whether that right hon. gentleman remained out of office, or resumed his place in the councils of the king, he could never cease to repose in his honourable consistency and zeal the fullest reliance. Unfortunately for himself and the country, he had the fault of too much diffidence in his own talents, and in esti- 469 mating the degree of consideration which he enjoyed in the country. In his disinterested mind there was the most perfect absence of all selfish feeling; nor was he less distinguished for the most unassuming modesty—a quality most rare amongst minds so highly gifted as was that of the right hon. gentleman. But, enough of resignations—he would now apply himself to the new ministry. According to accounts which had gone abroad, the right hon. gentleman, now first lord of the Treasury, had, amongst other suggestions on the subject of an administration, proposed, that one purely Protestant should be formed. Now, the only motive that he could conceive for this proposition was, that the right hon. gentleman meant to set them up like nine-pins, merely for the pleasure of knocking them down again. He was afterwards, as it was stated, commissioned to form another administration; and then he stated, that he received the resignations of several amongst his colleagues with regret and with surprise. Considering the conversation he had had with the noble duke, and with several other individuals, it was scarcely saying too much to affirm, that such surprise did by no means naturally arise out of the circumstances; and further, it would not be forgotten, that, up to the moment of the noble duke's application, the right hon. gentleman did not appear to know that he was to be placed at the head of his majesty's government. Now, he should be very unwilling to ask the right hon. gentleman to tell that which he did not know; but he should like extremely to have his guess on the subject. He should like to learn who it was that "in the porches of the royal ear, did pour the leperous distilment;" poisoning it against those who had before enjoyed the confidence of their Sovereign. He had heard much of what had recently been done; and as far as what had taken place arose from the words and acts of his majesty, it was not a subject for inquiry: but it might be inquired, whether the words and acts of his majesty were not the words and acts of his ministers. In a constitutional point of view, of course, the king could not do that which should be made the subject of blame; but he might be made accessory to that which was blameable in others, and of which he himself was to be the victim. During the lifetime of the Sovereign his acts were constitutionally exempted from censure; but when 470 once the tomb closed upon kings, their character became the property of history. The public knew their character, and would often judge from what they had done, that which they would be likely to do under particular circumstances. Applying this to the character of his late majesty, he would suppose that it had been proposed to him to form an administration; it would not be difficult to suppose that he objected to a divided Cabinet, on one important subject; but it would be difficult to suppose that he would give his assent to the formation of such a cabinet, unless the preponderance was decidedly Protestant. Yet, if even that were the case, and it was proposed to his majesty to place at the head of such a cabinet the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning) who had been the constant, zealous, and most able, advocate of a principle to which his majesty was hostile, was there any man who could doubt, that such a proposition would have been instantly rejected? Had it been at the same time proposed to his majesty to place at the head of the government of Ireland—to place as Secretary for the Home Department—individuals distinguished for their constant support of the question of emancipation, to which his majesty had declared his conscientious hostility, was there any reason to doubt that those propositions would not have been refused? Suppose, again, it were proposed to his late majesty to elevate to noble rank, and to place as lord Chancellor of Ireland, one of the most brilliant advocates of that measure to which he had so strong an objection, could his majesty's refusal of the proposition be doubted for an instant? those who knew his majesty's character and sentiments, could have no hesitation in stating what his determination would have been in those cases. Still less could they doubt it, after they had learned that his majesty had had an interview with the archbishop of Canterbury, and had authorized him to convey to his right rev. brethren his determination to exclude from a preponderance in his councils those who supported a measure which he could not conscientiously approve, and that that impression had gone abroad through the country, and was hailed with unmixed satisfaction. If, however, after such opinions had been expressed, it was found that his majesty had been advised, and had acted on the advice, to take a different course on all those points, it would 471 no doubt be an object of interesting and important inquiry, to know by whom that advice had been given, and on what ground.—He would now say a word as to who were the ministers. On this point they learned from the press, that some of those individuals were only like the doubles in the French theatre, holding the place of the real characters which were afterwards to appear. The rapidity with which the right hon. gentleman who formed the cabinet, when disappointed in one quarter turned to another, his junction with the Whigs, at the very moment that he parted from his Tory friends, must have reminded them of the quotation in the Anti-Jacobin, "A sudden thought strikes me: let us swear eternal friendship." The coalition thus formed had been described as "unnatural and unprecedented." Unprecedented it might be in some respects; but for his part, he thought it was very natural and justifiable; but he had his doubts whether it was quite sudden. Those who had marked the progress of circumstances for some time past, must have looked upon this coalition as very natural. Its approach might have been perceived in many of the recent measures, where the opinions of one side of the House were patronized and adopted by the other, and where, from day to day, the approaches in one quarter were very favourably received by the other. The coalition, then, whatever might be thought of it in other respects, could not be said to be unnatural.—But, leaving this junction to work its way, there was one great point to which he was anxious, before he concluded, to call their lordships' attention: that was the Catholic question. It would be recollected, that that measure had been proposed in the other House; though it was withdrawn in their lordships'. It was, he believed, understood, that it was not the intention of the right hon. gentleman at the head of the government to introduce it at present. The Catholics of Ireland were advised; and their priests would repeat the advice, to observe for the present a morbid and lethargic stillness, "to seem like the flower, but be the serpent under it." But were they weak enough to suppose, that the friends of the constitution would wait for the time when it might be the pleasure of the other party to assail its best safeguard? They could not wait till the right hon. gentleman might have it in his power to introduce into their lordships' house, men able to enforce his 472 measures, and give the weight of their support to his opinions. He, therefore, feared he should be compelled to submit to their lordships' consideration, a motion, the precise, terms of which he would not now state, but the object of which would be, to call for an expression of their lordships' opinion on the subject of Catholic emancipation, in the most explicit manner. On the 4th of June, he should propose a resolution in favour of Catholic emancipation, to the fullest extent that any such resolution had ever been carried; or, if that were not agreed to, move the House for an address to his majesty to elicit a declaration from the Crown, of a contrary tendency—such as it befitted a Protestant parliament to suggest—such as no king since James the 2nd had ever been advised to refuse—yet such as the right hon. gentleman, now at the head of the Treasury, must, if he continued to hold office, advise his majesty to refuse.
§ Viscount Goderich(late the right hon. Frederick Robinson) rose, and spoke to the following effect:—My lords, I feel called upon, indeed compelled, to address your lordships, upon the subject which has been this evening brought under your consideration; and in doing so, I am free to admit I feel no small degree of anxiety; an anxiety arising, partly from the nature of the subject itself; and partly from the circumstance of my now having to address your lordships for the first time. It were worse than vain for me to deny, or attempt to conceal, the unaffected and undisguised pain with which I feel myself forced to address myself to this subject. I trust it is unnecessary for me to declare, that there does not exist in my mind the most trifling particle of ill-feeling or animosity towards the noble and right honourable individuals in question, for the course which they have thought fit to take on the present occasion. On the contrary, it is with the most perfect sincerity I can say, that I feel for those distinguished individuals as much respect and regard as the greatest of their admirers can do. My lords, I address myself with the greatest sorrow—the most unfeigned regret—to this question; and I am free to confess, that it is not without similar feelings that I have been able to witness the separation from his majesty's government, of men with whom, for years, I have been proud to act, not only as colleagues but as friends. But, my lords, at the same time that I make 473 this admission, I cannot but express my opinion, that my noble friends, when they felt it their duty to withdraw their services from the Crown, adopted that course at the very moment, of all others, when the circumstances of the country and of the government made it peculiarly desirable that they should continue to render them. However, I am well aware that a right hon. friend of mine, the late Secretary for the Home Department, felt himself placed in so peculiar a situation, with regard to the Catholic question, that it would have been impossible for him to continue a member of a cabinet, the individual at the head of which was favourable to Catholic emancipation. The scruples of my right hon. friend are, perhaps, capable of being accounted for, and were certainly only in strict consistency with the entire tenor of his previous conduct; but I confess I was not prepared for the adoption of a similar course, by other noble individuals. I say this, my lords, because I cannot believe that the principle of lord Liverpool's administration way one of perpetual and unconditional exclusion towards any body of men in this country; and, because those noble individuals felt no difficulty in cooperating with the government, at the head of which was placed the distinguished individual whom I have named. So far from that administration having been constituted on any such principle, I can say, for myself, as I am certain I can, with perfect confidence, declare, on the part of my right hon. friend, now at the head of the cabinet, that if I had conceived that such was the principle of lord Liverpool's administration, I would not have supported it, or made one of its members. I should at once have objected to any such principle; and, feeling as I do, that it is a principle on which a government ought not to be founded, I should also have, unconditionally, declined joining a cabinet so constituted. My noble friend has stated, that he was informed by my right hon. friend at the head of the Treasury, that it was at one time intended to propose to his majesty to place the individual who now addresses your lordships at the head of the government. My lords, this would have been to me an honour as unexpected as unmerited—an honour, and a responsibility, which (high as they are) no consideration on earth could have tempted me to undertake, except the hope that I might thereby be made the instrument of 474 keeping together the constituent elements of an administration, which has been so unhappily dispersed. But, my lords, the proposition is one of which I never, until the present moment, heard, and I am, therefore, in no degree responsible for it. As it is a plan of which I had no knowledge, I have nothing to do with the consequences which may be supposed to have resulted from its not having been put into execution.—My noble friends complain of having been assailed by the basest misrepresentation and calumny. My lords, whatever may be the calumny or misrepresentation which they have endured, I can declare, with the utmost sincerity, that it finds no responsive feeling in my mind. It is unnecessary for me to declare, that of any such attacks I can be neither a patron nor a partizan. When it is added—as it has been added—that, in the attacks which are complained of, the press has been under the influence of the government, I take leave, my lords, in a manner the most distinct and unqualified, totally to deny the assertion. I will go further than this, and add, that, from what I know of the character of the public press, and the connection subsisting between it and the government, I have no hesitation in expressing my opinion, that the press is an engine by far too powerful and too independent to be made use of in the way alluded to; even if the government were disposed, which it is not, to make the attempt [hear! and a laugh, from the Opposition Benches]. Noble lords may laugh; but if they were again sitting on this side of the House—I say, if they were here, and had to settle the question of influence—I will add of independence—with the press, they would soon ascertain their error, and find it an instrument too powerful to be so readily controlled. My lords, I regret the secession of my noble friends, from the bottom of my soul: but I do not impugn the integrity of their motives. I do not impute to them confederacy—I impute nothing, I do not impute to them factious motives, I cannot bring myself to believe it possible, I do not impute to them concert or conspiracy—I impute no such thing. I am rather disposed to say, that difficulties and differences arose out of a difficult case, and that the separation which I lament, has been mainly attributable to want of sufficient concert and communication. More communication might, I 475 am satisfied, have prevented much of what I must ever call the mischief that has arisen out of the dissolution of the late administration. When my right hon. friend, who is now at the head of the Treasury, communicated to me, that he had received the commands of his majesty to form an administration, and asked me to constitute a part of it, I felt it to be my duty to state, that I should obey his majesty's commands, and remain a member of the cabinet. My lords, I did this, because I felt that the administration which had subsisted for the last fifteen years, and which had been formed on the basis of leaving the Catholic question a question of neutrality, open to each individual of the ministry to form his own judgment upon, was an administration that had been proved to be beneficial to the country. My lords, I found that the government so constituted, had been successfully carried on, under circumstances of no ordinary difficulty and danger; and further, my lords, that it had carried the country through those dangers and difficulties, in a manner that had been seldom equalled, and never surpassed. I found that administration possessing the concurrence and confidence of the king, the two Houses of Parliament, and I believe I may add, of the country at large. Under these circumstances, I saw no reason to doubt that if the administration, though it had lost its leader, remained united as heretofore, it might continue to effect similar purposes, prove equally popular, and forward the interests of the country, while it secured the confidence of the sovereign. Therefore it was, my lords, that, without asking my right hon. friend what others intended to do. I replied to the communication which had been made to me, by stating that my humble services were at his majesty's command. Having no feeling existing in my mind against taking office under the right hon. gentleman who is now first commissioner of the Treasury, I felt, my lords, that it would be equally base and inconsistent in me to make my consent contingent on the accepting or rejection of office by other members of the late cabinet, who, taking a different view of circumstances from myself, could offer no reason for retiring in which I could concur. My lords, their objection that the individual proposed to be placed at the head of the cabinet was favourable to the adjustment of the Catholic claims, was to be no ob- 476 jection whatever; and it was, therefore, impossible that I should make common cause with them. My noble friend, who spoke last, has alluded to the present state of the government—a state at which he has expressed his dissatisfaction in no measured terms of condemnation. All I can say, in answer to the noble lord's complaints is, that if the government is not satisfactory to my noble friends, it is no fault of ours, but rather of those who have separated themselves from us. The object of my right hon. friend now at the head of the cabinet was, to keep together the elements of lord Liverpool's government; and when they were dissipated, it was by no act of his. When the noble individuals withdrew themselves from amongst us, in what situation were we placed? Was my right hon. friend to go to his majesty and say, "Sire, you have laid upon me your royal commands to form an administration; but I can make no attempt to form one?" Was my right hon. friend to say, "I will run away from the post assigned me by his majesty," and, by so doing, leave his majesty in a predicament, such as no sovereign was ever placed in before? My lords, my right hon. friend had no other alternative than to act as he has acted; and, I may add, his majesty had no other resource—for it is a notorious and undoubted fact, that the individuals who are understood to be adverse to the Catholic cause would not consent to form a government, when applied to do so, on the principle of opposition to the Roman Catholics. In what situation, then, was his majesty placed? The king could not have recourse to these individuals in the formation of an administration, for they had refused their support and assistance to the sovereign, who was, therefore, driven, by the refusal, to take other steps, and deal with persons professing different principles. The opponents of the Catholics would neither take office themselves in an administration conducted on the principle of exclusion, nor unite with us in one framed on principles of neutrality. My lords, under such circumstances, I do not know on what principle we could have said to his majesty, "We will make no effort, in compliance with your majesty's desires, to conduct a Government on the same principles of a divided Cabinet as before." Be the evils of a cabinet divided on a question of great national importance what they may—(and, my lords, I am not 477 the man to shut my eyes to them or deny their existence)—I say we have the most unequivocal proof in the history of the government, during the last fifteen years, that a cabinet so constructed can act with advantage to the state; and, further, my lords, that the country is prepared to support a cabinet founded upon these principles. The noble earl who last addressed your lordships, animadverted, with a mixture of asperity in the sentiment, and obscurity in the expression, on the conduct of the existing government, and the union which has taken place between certain individuals who compose the administration. At the same time the noble earl admits, that what he is pleased to call "the coalition" is "neither unnatural nor unprecedented," and yet it comes in for no moderate share of his indignation. The noble earl declares, that he has looked with suspicion on the conduct of the government for some years back, because within that period, they have succeeded in conciliating to themselves persons professing opinions, to which they had been formerly opposed. This is the ground of my noble friend's suspicious apprehension of the conduct of the cabinet, and the inference from it is equally disgraceful to our principles and our feelings; as if we had compromised our public conduct, and sacrificed our honour, for the sake of getting a little ease to ourselves, in carrying into effect the measures of our administration! My lords, I at once saw to what the noble earl alluded—I was aware he meant those subjects of internal policy which I introduced, and which caused so much debate and discussion, as well in this place as in the other House of Parliament. I readily admit, my lords, that I am the individual, who of all others, whether in his majesty's government or out of it, am peculiarly to blame for the introduction of these measures into this country—if the measures be in themselves blameworthy. What I have done in this respect I have done sincerely; and if I am wrong, let me alone be blamed for it. My lords, if the system be erroneous, let it be retraced; but let not the blame be thrown on individuals who are not its authors. Author of the system I have not the vanity to call myself; for it can scarcely be termed original. But, my lords, I am ready to admit, that I have, from time to time, endeavoured to avail myself of the earliest and most 478 favourable opportunity to introduce into the system of our existing regulations, what has been mistakenly called, by my opponents, innovation, but which really was neither more nor less than an attempt to bring back the country to those principles, from which, under the pressure of peculiar circumstances, and in the course of a war of unexampled length and difficulty, it had departed. My lords, in the other House of Parliament, I advocated those measures—measures, which, notwithstanding the denunciations of my noble friend, I am convinced, will, in the end, eminently conduce to the promotion of the best interests of the country. That the system in question will eventually produce this desirable result, I have no manner of doubt. However, my lords, these measures, whoever was their author, are entirely attributable to the united councils of the government; every member of which having acquiesced in their adoption, is as responsible for the act, as the individual who brought them forward. Therefore it is, that I feel less disposed to complain of the course adopted by my noble friend, in relation to this subject.—I am afraid, my lords, that I have trespassed on your lordships' time and patience much longer than I ought to have done, and that I may have expressed myself with more warmth and less self-possession than was becoming on an occasion of such importance as the present. My lords, I will not attempt arrogantly to anticipate the success which may attend my labours in the department which his majesty has been graciously pleased to assign to me in the government; but I do trust, that in the discharge of those duties which devolve upon me in my office of Secretary of State for the colonies, I need not despair of securing the good opinion of your lordships; the rather as I stand here on principles of public advantage, and with a sincere desire to promote the interests of the country. My lords, I can assure you I am not here through any motives of individual ambition, or a desire to gratify personal objects. So far from it, if I had acted solely in accordance with the dictates of my own wishes, I should not now have the honour to address your lordships. I repeat, my lords, I have no object of personal ambition to gratify, and can therefore throw myself with confidence on your lordships' candour and favourable construction, because my conscience tells 479 me, that my aim has solely been, the promotion of the honour of my king, and the good of his people.
§ Earl Bathurstassigned, as one motive which had induced him to disconnect himself from the existing administration, the fact of his having ascertained that certain individuals, formerly his colleagues, and on whose judgment he placed the most implicit reliance, had resigned. The principle of the earl of Liverpool's government, in relation to the Catholic question, had been one of neutrality, and every minister of the cabinet was at liberty to vote as he thought best. He had approved of this system, which left the government free and irresponsible, and thought that an administration exclusively composed of friends or opponents of the Catholics, was by no means desirable. When, in consequence of the right hon. gentleman's appointment, he understood that the country was deprived of the services of so great a number of his distinguished colleagues, he thought he should not have been justified had he continued to act with the right hon. gentleman. In the present administration there were but three individuals who were supposed to be adverse to the Catholic claims. For these individuals he entertained the greatest respect. He was fully sensible of the great talents and acquirements of the noble and learned lord who now occupied the woolsack. With respect to the noble marquis (Angle-sea) who was understood to entertain similar opinions to those of the noble and learned lord, on the subject of concessions to the Catholics, he could assure his noble friend that he entertained for him great personal regard. For the noble baron (Bexley) he entertained similar feelings, and must ever retain a strong recollection of his important services during the war, as chancellor of the Exchequer. With such colleagues as these, he could have felt no objection to act, had it not been for the retirement of so many noble friends in whom he was accustomed to place the greatest confidence. The noble earl then proceeded to advert to the singular coincidence which occurred in the resignations of so many cabinet ministers, simultaneously—a coincidence the more extraordinary, as it could not now be doubted that it was purely accidental. There was no concert in the steps which those noble individuals had taken. The noble earl concluded by re-stating, that it was im- 480 possible for him to continue to hold office in a cabinet constituted as the present.
The Earl of Westmorlandsaid, that he could not remain entirely silent on the present occasion, although the subject had been so fully explained and so ably argued by his noble friends who had preceded him, that it would not be necessary for him to trespass long upon their lordships' attention. It was frequently a matter of considerable difficulty to estimate the motives which actuated different men under different circumstances. There were often considerations which operated almost insensibly upon a man's own self, and of which therefore it was utterly impossible for any other man to judge. The reasons, however, which had induced him to take the step which he had recently taken were short and clear; and with their lordships' permission he would state them. But, before doing so, he would endeavour to answer the two serious charges which had been preferred against so many of the members of his majesty's late government. In the first place, they were charged with caballing against the government itself; and, in the second place, they were charged with the more serious offence of intending to invade the exercise of his majesty's prerogative. It was certainly a most singular thing that this charge of wishing to invade his majesty's prerogative was advanced by those who were no great friends of the royal prerogative, against those who had always manifested themselves its best supporters. The circumstances Which had already been stated by his noble friends sufficiently proved that the recent occurrences had not arisen from any thing like cabal. For his own part, he thought, with his noble friend on the Treasury bench, that it was unfortunate there had not been something more approaching to cabal; because it was on that account that what had taken place came on every man by surprise. He most firmly believed that every individual concerned had acted from the suggestion of his own feelings, and without the slightest concert with his col leagues. With respect to himself, at least, he most positively denied that he was liable to the imputation which had been thrown out on the subject. With respect to the imputed attack on the royal prerogative, he wished first to know what the prerogative was which they were charged with attacking? That it was his majesty's prerogative to appoint whom he chose to 481 be prime minister, no man could possibly doubt. But, was it a part of his majesty's prerogative to make a man serve in the cabinet without his own consent? Was a man to be called upon to become a member of a cabinet without the least reference to whether or not he reposed any confidence in the individual who was placed at its head? Would he be bound to support a cabinet at the head of which might be placed a reformer, or a democrat? Was it a part of his majesty's prerogative to insist upon such an acquiescence? Was it not the undoubted privilege of a British subject to act on his own sense of honour? Was it not his duty, if he felt that circumstance called upon him to do so, silently to retire from office; sacrificing that which was the object of the efforts of thousands, to the dictates of his conscience? He wished to know, if it were an offence against the constitution to retire from, or to decline office, how many of the noble lords who surrounded him, how many of the noble lords and right honour able gentlemen of former days, had been guilty of it? When Mr. Fox, the duke of Portland, and another distinguished individual thought proper to leave lord Shelburne's administration, was that an attack on his majesty's prerogative? When the marquis of Wellesley was appointed by his majesty to construct an administration in 1812, was the refusal of the earl of Liverpool and others to serve under him, because he did not approve of certain parts of the noble marquis's political opinions, especially on the subject of Catholic emancipation, an attack on the king's prerogative? Was the right hon. gentleman at present the first lord of the Treasury, guilty of an attack on the royal prerogative when, at various times, he had refused to join, or had quitted his majesty's government? The right hon. gentleman had committed this heinous offence in 1809, and again in 1820. For his part, he had always conceived that it was the undoubted right of every public man to judge of the character of a government for himself; to consider whether or not its continuance was likely to be beneficial; and if it should appear to him not to be so, to perform his duty to his king and country, by refusing to countenance or support it.—Having thus relieved himself from the two charges of cabal, and an invasion of the royal prerogative, he would state as shortly as he could, the grounds 482 on which he had recently acted; and he trusted that those grounds would appear to their lordships to be satisfactory. In the first letter which he had received on this subject, it was proposed to reconstruct the administration on the principles of lord Liverpool's government; a proposition which met with his ready acquiescence. It by no means however followed, as a matter of course, that because the communication was made to him by the right hon. gentleman who was at that period Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, or because that right hon. gentleman had been nominated by his majesty to form an administration, that of such administration that right hon. gentleman was ipso facto the chief. When, in 1807, the earl of Liverpool and his noble and learned friend near him were appointed to form an administration, the duke of Portland was nevertheless placed at its head. The answer which he gave to the communication made to him—which communication did not state whom it was intended to place at the head of the government—was not positive, but conditional. It was to the effect, that if the chief of the newly constructed government entertained the same principles as lord Liverpool, he should be happy to continue one of its members. On finding, however, that that was not to be the case, he had resigned his official situation. He would not then enter into any details of the Catholic question; but, entertaining the opinion, right or wrong, which he entertained respecting it, he could not consent to remain one of an administration, with almost the whole board of his colleagues in direct hostility to him. Who did not know that the opinions of the first lord of the Treasury always gave a decided tone and colour to the whole administration? Who did not know what were the opinions of the present first lord of the Treasury on the Catholic question? It was true that his two noble friends now in the cabinet, who were unfriendly to any further concession to the Catholics, might be permitted to give their solitary votes on the subject; but of what avail would they be against the immense preponderance on the other side? He had served his majesty for many, many years; and he had discontinued to do so only when he became convinced that the continuance of his services would be no longer beneficial either to his majesty or to the country.
Lord Melvillebegged to be allowed to trouble their lordships with a few remarks. The members of his majesty's late administration, who had resigned their official situations, had been charged with conspiracy. For himself, he declared distinctly, and on his honour, that from the hour of lord Liverpool's illness down to the hour of his resignation, he had not had the slightest communication of any kind or description with any one of his colleagues regarding the formation of a new administration. The right hon. the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Huskisson) had come to him with a message, stating that the right hon. the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had received his majesty's command to form an administration which should be on the principle of lord Liverpool's administration, and should, as much as possible, comprehend the same individuals. His immediate answer was, that provided he was not required to give any pledge respecting Catholic emancipation, and provided that the right hon. gentleman could succeed in keeping his colleagues together, he had no objection to be a member of the new cabinet. He had had no further communication until the noon of the next day, when he had an interview with the right hon. gentleman himself, whom he left with the full impression that the right hon. gentleman would succeed in keeping his colleagues together, with the exception, perhaps, of the right hon. the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Of the continuance of that right hon. gentleman in office, Mr. Canning spoke doubtfully; at the same time expressing his great regret at the possibility of his secession from the cabinet. In the course of this interview, he repeated to the right hon. gentleman the statement which he had made, in the first instance, to the President of the Board of Trade. He hoped, therefore, that it was quite clear that he had not acted in concert with any one. In fact it was not possible, in the nature of things, that any concert or conspiracy whatever could have existed. On the following Thursday, however, he heard that not only the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, but the noble duke at the head of the Army, the noble and learned lord on the Woolsack, and the noble earl presiding over the Colonial Office, had intimated their intention to retire, and not to form a part of the new administration. He 484 immediately determined to follow their example; notwithstanding that, on the question of Catholic emancipation, he pursued a different course from them. The noble duke had [...] distinctly disclaimed the supposition [...] the Catholic question was the consideration by which he had been influenced in his resignation. What he (lord Melville) wished to know was, whether, when it was proposed to any person to form a part of an administration, it was imperative upon him to acquiesce in the proposition, and to join that administration, whatever opinion he might have formed of its stability or character? The answer to that question was the ground on which he stood. He had the greatest esteem for the right hon. gentleman who was at present at the head of his majesty's government; but it was for him to consider how far it would be practicable for the right hon. gentleman to carry on the government, with credit to himself and benefit to the country, after the loss of so many of his colleagues. The deprivation of the noble earl who had so long conducted the government with so much ability, honour, and temper, was of itself a severe stroke upon the cabinet; but when to that was added the secession of his noble and right hon. friends, it might surely be permitted to him to doubt whether by the remaining members of the cabinet the government could be administered as he thought it ought to be administered. It had been very properly said, that this was not the place to review any thing which had passed in the interior of his majesty's government; but he could not conceal the opinion which he had formed and acted upon, respecting the late change in the administration. He had been permitted to approach his majesty's person for more than twenty years; and after he had come to that period of life, when active services could not be much expected from him, he asked, was it to be expected that any one in such a situation as he held, should be bound to accede, without any knowledge of the persons who were to compose a new administration, and without knowing whether they were to consist of friends whom he had known, or of gentlemen, with whom, whatever might be their high reputation, he had no acquaintance? And, supposing that the ministry had gone on in that way, he must say (feeling, as he did, the highest respect for the talents of the fist lord of the Treasury), that still 485 the change from the government of lord Liverpool was a change for the worse. He thought, therefore, from all the circumstances of the case, that their lordships would feel he had a right, in order to make up his judgment, to know, before he joined an administration, of what materials it was to be composed.
§ The Marquis Camdensaid, that he knew nothing of the transactions which formed the subject-matter of the present discussion, except what he had collected from the statements in the newspapers. Those statements, and the explanations of the noble lords in that House, constituted all the knowledge that he possessed upon the question; and from that knowledge he should say, that, so far from things having gone wrong from any cabal, it appeared to him a matter of surprise that there had been so little communication between the members of the late administration. It seemed to him that there had not been even that ordinary and common intercourse which ought to subsist between members of the same government. If such an intercourse had subsisted, much of what had occurred might have been averted, as it resulted, in a great degree, in his opinion, from a want of a full and perfect understanding between the parties. The noble marquis concluded by expressing his satisfaction at the explanations afforded by the noble lords, of the grounds of their retirement from office.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that he had personally received the most gracious marks of the royal favour, and that never did man feel more than himself, a sincere and ardent attachment to his majesty's person and government. He was not to be put down by insinuations which had appeared in the public papers, stating that he had addressed an improper letter to his majesty, but would openly state, that the moment he heard of the appointment of the present prime minister, he had immediately resigned the office which he held, of lord of the bedchamber. His opinion of that right hon. individual was not formed, for the first time, on the late occasion. So long ago as 1822, when he had the honour of being ambassador at Vienna, he had predicted to his noble friend, the duke of Wellington, and stated to him his conviction, that, if that individual, after the death of his lamented brother, was appointed Secretary for Foreign Affairs, a few years would not elapse 486 before he would show that he would not be satisfied, but that he would force himself to the head of his majesty's councils. That right hon. gentleman on several, but particularly on a recent, occasion, had realized that conviction, by the extraordinary speech which he had made on the affairs of Portugal. The principles advanced in which speech amounted, in his opinion, to a departure from those diplomatic relations and political principles, which were considered to constitute the principles of lord Liverpool's government, and from which he was confident that his late lamented brother—than whom no man was actuated with a more ardent and devoted love for his country—would never have departed. He had observed, indeed, for some time back, that new principles were creeping into the government, which he could not conscientiously support as a peer of parliament, and he therefore resigned the situation which he had the honour to hold under his majesty. He would invite any person to read the speech of the present first lord of the Treasury on the affairs of Portugal, and ask him, if the infatuated enterprise which that right hon. gentleman had recommended to parliament, was not in diametrical opposition to all the principles of foreign alliance or diplomatic relations, on which this country had invariably acted. As to support such measures would be, in his opinion, to aim at the subversion of all those principles which his lamented brother maintained, and which he believed to lie deep in the interests of his country, he determined no longer to support government. Another part of the conduct of the present first lord of the Treasury, to which the attention of the country was attracted, was his correspondence with his illustrious friend the duke of Wellington, which placed him in that situation in which he was compelled to retire from the command of the army—a retirement which went to the heart of the army that he commanded, and by which he was beloved. He would take the liberty of reading to the House the manner in which his majesty was graciously pleased to introduce the mention of his name in the General Order for his appointment.
"The King feels, that, under the present afflicting circumstances, his Majesty cannot more effectually supply the loss which the nation and the army have sustained, than by appointing to the Chief 487 Command of his Majesty's Forces, Field-Marshal his Grace the Duke of Wellington, the great and distinguished General who has so often led the armies of the nation to victory and glory, and whose high military renown is blended with the history of Europe."
Was not, he would ask, that man, then, public property, and ought he, of all others, to be dismissed or deprived of his situation? And, to speak of that infatuated expedition to Portugal, for such he must call it, supposing that his grace's services were to be wanted there, how could that minister go to him, and ask him to draw his sword, after the exhibition of the correspondence which had been read that night; which, at all events, proved that he did not want the noble duke to remain in office? Such, then, being the case, that minister could not ask him to put himself at the head of the army; and he defied any man so situated, to have acted in any other way. The conduct pursued towards the noble duke must strike their lordships the more forcibly, when they recalled to their recollection, that the period was not long gone by, when the destinies of the country were wrapped up in him. But for the success of the noble duke, effected by his extraordinary powers of mind, perhaps they would not have been sitting there. Whatever the House might do, he would not compromise the Catholic question. A noble marquis (Lansdown), who had been the chief supporter of it in that House, might, if he thought fit, leave his situation on the Opposition benches, and sit down opposite, to support—what? lord Liverpool's Government! Would he, or would any noble lord, dare to tell him, that they would take one step in favour of the Catholic question? Then, what would the Irish Roman Catholics think of it? Were they to take the will for the deed? After all those outward and visible signs of government favour, were they to get nothing? For his own part, he would rather see the country tranquillized: he would, rather than pursue such a course, see the question laid aside, and the government in the hands of the late Secretary for the Home Department, who had, last night, made a speech which did him the highest honour, and which would be borne in mind so long as consistency was distinguished from inconsistency, and honesty was preferred to dishonesty. He confessed he had rather see 488 that right hon. gentleman at the head of the government. If the friends of emancipation were to see him Prime Minister, even on the principle of the exclusion of the Catholics, they would at least know the difficulties opposed to them, and would be relieved from excited and defeated hopes, to which they were now subjected, without any fair prospect of their definite termination. Among the extraordinary features which characterized the present administration, he could not forbear observing, that on the side of the new government were found, for the first time, united, persons who had formerly been invariably opposed: there were found on the side of the minister one hon. baronet (sir F. Burdett) who was considered the Man of the People, and another gentleman, of great legal ability, who had been heard in that House as the advocate of the late queen; but these gentlemen, forsooth, were seen supporting the government of lord Liverpool! He had now spoken his sentiments plainly and freely; he was no orator, but he hoped he was a man of sense. He would not go to a bookseller to print, or to alter, his speech. Having thus conscientiously given his opinion, he would sit down, with gratitude to their lordships for their indulgence. He would not have trespassed on the House, had it not been for the treatment experienced by his illustrious commander, with whom he had gone through perils and dangers, which that noble person would not deign to look back upon—a man who, he would say, was adored by his officers, and distinguished by having gained the most glorious victories. Before he sat down, he should say that he did not envy the noble marquis (of Anglesea) the tottering seat to which he had attained—for convinced he was, that that noble lord's triumph would be but momentary—and thought that he would have acted much better than by accepting it, in reconciling the breaches, if any there were, between two illustrious individuals. Then he would have stood on higher grounds, and in a better position, than he did at present.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that he should have contented himself with listening to the explanations of those noble lords who had retired from government, and of those also who had been appointed to the new administration, had it not been that he and those with whom he acted 489 were so personally alluded to, as to render it imperative on him, to address a few observations to the House. With respect to the noble duke late at the head of the army, although he concurred with his noble friend who spoke last, in the expression of regret at the retirement of that noble duke from the command of the army, yet he could not help it. It was not for a moment to be supposed that he was dismissed from that situation. But, at the same time, it could not be disputed for a moment, that he had an undoubted right to resign if he thought proper to exercise that right. The noble duke thought proper willingly and readily of his own accord to exercise that right, and it was surely most unfair to visit on others the adoption of that course which the noble duke had himself preferred to take. With respect to the charge and imputation of conspiracy, he was of opinion that there was no ground for such an imputation; on the contrary, he felt great surprise at the almost total absence of communication which subsisted among the members of the administration, according to the explanations of the noble lords themselves. Indeed, from the slight intercourse that subsisted between them, no person would suppose that they were engaged in arrangements, on the result of which depended the future fate of England. It was, indeed, in his opinion, a heavy reproach, that there was not a fuller and more perfect understanding between all parties, whereby much inconvenience might have been avoided.—With respect to an imputed coalition between those with whom he was accustomed to act, and the present first lord at the head of the Treasury, he could only say, that the idea of such a coalition was absurd, as he never had been even on such terms of acquaintance with that right hon. gentleman as their respective situations in society might render probable; and there never had been the slightest approximation towards a coalition, before the commencement of the proceedings of the last fortnight. He would ask, however, what was the accusation—if accusation it could be called—which the noble marquis and the noble earl had brought against him, and those persons who had lately been placed in opposition to his majesty's government? The noble earl did not say—for he could not say—that the disposition they now displayed to support the government, as it existed, 490 arose from any secret intrigue, or reprehensible machination, upon the part of the one side or the other. The plain and simple reason of those proceedings which had taken place during the last few days was to be found in that approximation, upon great questions of policy, which had been taking place for several years, between a portion of his majesty's government and those with whom he generally acted. When, therefore, the noble marquis who last addressed the House, expressed his surprise at seeing him support a government which professed to act upon some undefined principle neither explained nor understood, he must take leave to ask that noble marquis to look back to the proceedings of the last few years, for some explanation of the motives which influenced that support. When he recollected, that only three years ago, he had used his feeble endeavours to impress upon the House the necessity, in the present state of European politics—a state which must, for a great number of years, continue to influence the destinies of the country—when, he repeated, he had endeavoured to impress upon the House the necessity of this country recognising the independence of those states in South America which were then freeing themselves from their bondage, and casting aside the fetters which had been rivetted upon them for centuries; and when he saw a skilful hand had succeeded in smoothing the difficulties which stood in the way of that recognition and that connection—when he saw a wide field opened for commercial speculation, and the exertion of national industry—did the noble marquis suppose, that any difference, as to minor points of policy, could prevent him from feeling that the individual who had succeeded in conferring such important benefits upon the country had thereby laid the ground of a strong claim upon his advocacy and support [hear, hear!]. Could, he would ask, the noble marquis fail to recognize the effect of his own humble sentiments upon subjects which he saw about to be carried into effect, and even then producing the most beneficial results to every class of the community?—He thought, at the same time, that the noble marquis and others would do well to recollect the consequences which flowed from the recognition of the Spanish colonies, and allow themselves to consider in what state the shipping and commercial interests of this country would 491 have now been, had the opportunity which then presented itself to the right hon. gentleman now at the head of the government been unhappily neglected. Without the benefits which have flowed from that and other effects of a more liberal and enlightened policy, he had no hesitation in saying that the time was fast approaching when the independence of the country must have been sacrificed, and the advantages for which they had been contending for centuries wholly obliterated. He came then to another topic touched upon by the noble marquis—the foreign policy of the country; and in speaking of that policy, he felt himself bound to allude most particularly to a question upon which he thought there was—if there could ever be upon any great public question—a universal concurrence of sentiment; he meant that exercise of the power of the country, which the noble marquis had designated as the infatuated expedition to Portugal. Who, he would ask, had ever before doubted that the expedition to that country was to be justified and defended upon every principle of public honour, and national policy? It proceeded upon the principle of recognising the independence of nations: it proceeded upon a right, without which the independence of nations could not exist in Europe; it proceeded upon the right of every nation to choose its own government, and to be its own judge of the nature of the institutions which it proposed to adopt; it proceeded upon the principle, that no nation ought to be stripped of its privileges, by the power of any other, without its own consent; and that, although different nations might consider different forms of government as suited to different situations, yet when those institutions were adopted, no foreign power was to be permitted to overturn them. What, then, did the noble marquis think, was there inconsistent in his support of those who maintained those principles? Did he think that, because those with whom he had the honour to act had always advocated the cause of South American independence, and the recognition of that independence, he was to oppose those who advocated the same principles? Did he suppose that, because he had always advocated the principles of free trade, and confidently predicted, in the instance the silk trade and others with which he had more immediately connected himself, the beneficial results to 492 the country from the adoption of those principles—did he suppose that, when he saw those principles adopted, and those benefits produced, he was called upon to refuse his confidence and support to that portion of his majesty's government, which had succeeded in accomplishing objects which he considered to be so desirable? The noble marquis then alluded to the praise which had been bestowed upon the late Secretary for the Home Department. A gentleman whom it had pleased the noble lord who spoke last, to describe as the very abstract of all honour, and the essence of all candour and sincerity, from the simple circumstance of his having refused to sit in a cabinet, the head of which professed himself favourable to Catholic emancipation. He confessed that the noble marquis had founded upon this a very strange argument; and the more strange as he avowed himself to be an advocate for that emancipation. The noble marquis had eulogised the conduct of that right hon. gentleman in withdrawing from a cabinet favourable to the Catholics. But, was that right hon. gentleman, who had gone on for years supporting all the measures of the government, even its deviations from that ancient policy of the country which the noble marquis so much applauded, to be made the subject of praise because he had thought fit to withdraw himself from the situation he held in the government, the moment he found it disposed to favour Catholic emancipation? He felt as much as any man the value of the services which that right hon. gentleman had rendered the country. He regretted as much as any man that the right hon. gentleman had thought fit to withdraw himself from the situation in which he had been able to accomplish such important alterations; but he could not agree with the noble marquis in considering that secession as entitled to the commendations which he had bestowed upon it. Looking, therefore, either at the foreign or the domestic policy pursued by his majesty's government, he felt himself equally bound to give it his cordial support. That support, however, was not given to persons, but to things—not to the men by whom measures were to be executed, but to the prospects which those measures held out of realising his objects, and thereby adding strength to the constitutional institutions of the country. In alluding, however, to the Catholic 493 question, he did not hesitate to say, that whether on this side of the House or on the other—whether in or out of office—in whatever situation he might be placed—he never could be rendered incapable of stating fairly and openly his opinions upon that question, or of bringing it forward at any time, or under any circumstances, which he might consider the most likely to advance its ultimate triumph. And he would add, that leaving himself at full liberty to choose that time, he never could be induced to move the question in that House, unless under such a combination of circumstances as he might conceive to be likely to insure the success of the cause which he advocated, and promote, at the same time, the tranquillity of the empire. Whenever that time should come—he did not at that moment venture to say when—but whenever it did come, he hoped so to pursue his course as to aid, not to injure, the cause he espoused. The noble marquis concluded by observing that, having thus stated the reasons which induced him to support his majesty's government, he had only to add, that when he saw his majesty issuing his commands to the right hon. gentleman to form an administration, and when his majesty at the same time commanded that right hon. gentleman to propose to him to take a part in the support of that government, he had felt it his duty—coinciding as he did with that government in opinions—to bow with submission to those commands, and to obey them [cheers].
Lord Ellenboroughcommenced by observing, that he differed from the noble marquis, who had last addressed their lordships, upon many important points. He was prepared to admit, that certain practical benefits had flowed from the measures adopted by Mr. Canning, but he differed from some noble lords as to the quantity of credit due to Mr. Canning for those benefits. Upon the question of foreign policy, however, he was prepared to shew, that there had been no benefit from his counsels; because Mr. Canning was incapable of inspiring that confidence in the minds of those foreigners with whom he negociated, which could alone enable him to render his measures effectual. Let the House only look to the commencement of the revolution in the Peninsula of Spain. Every attempt was ineffectually made by this country to prevent any foreign power from interfering in the internal regulations 494 of that country; and while lord London-derry continued to uphold the interests of this country among foreigners, those efforts were successful. What had been the effect of the efforts of this country since that time it was unnecessary for him to say. The power of a nation in the eyes of foreigners could only be upheld in two ways—by confidence in its power and in those who directed that power, or by force. If they lost confidence, they could only resort to force to maintain their position; and if force could not be conveniently used, the result was not to be mistaken. Some persons said that there had been a great change in the domestic policy of the country since Mr. Canning became a member of the government. That was not the fact. All the changes in favour of free trade, all the consequences of the recognition of the independence of the Spanish colonies, were attributed to the efforts of Mr. Canning; but it was forgotten, that the plans and the views upon the subject of free trade had been developed long before that gentleman became connected with the government. A noble lord who had that evening taken his seat in that House for the first time (lord Goderich), stated distinctly, that the measures upon that subject had been in contemplation for years; and it was notorious, that the whole of the system upon which the government subsequently proceeded was laid down by Mr. Wallace, then at the head of the Board of Trade. The plan and the groundwork of the edifice were left by the architect; but he was compelled to say, that the person who took the credit of his conceptions, and who was said to have carried them into effect, had not been distinguished by that prudence and circumspection which distinguished the founder of the building. Then, as to the recognition of the South American States, of which so much had been said; he recollected very well the motion which had been alluded to, for the purpose of pressing forward that recognition; but they knew now, although they did not know then, that the late marquis of Londonderry and his majesty's government had long contemplated such a recognition; and it was distinctly intimated by that noble lord to the Ministers of the powers assembled at Aix-la-Chapelle, that such a course would be taken by England at no very distant period. Where, then, was the merit due to the late Foreign 495 Secretary for this exclusive boon conferred upon English commerce? If, therefore, the policy of the country for the last four years was the same as at present, and as it had been before, he could not see that noble lords had any reason for giving to the government a support now which they had refused to it before. It was impossible not to see, that whatever might be the intentions of the present government, it possessed less power to accomplish those intentions, than the government which had preceded it. It was impossible ,not to see that it had sustained such losses as wholly impaired its weight and usefulness. The loss of the earl of Liverpool, who possessed the respect and esteem of the country to a degree hardly ever before accorded to any private individual, was not to be supplied. The loss of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel), who was entitled to, and enjoyed, the confidence of the whole nation, must be as deeply felt in the government as it Was deplored elsewhere. It must be long, indeed, before any one who should come to fill his office would bring with him so intimate an acquaintance with the practical nature of its duties, as would enable him to carry into effect the extensive and useful reforms which the right hon. gentleman contemplated. The frank and manly declaration which that right hon. gentleman had made last night in the other House, had done him immortal honour, and would be remembered with admiration, as long as mankind understood the distinction between consistency and inconsistency, between honesty and dishonesty. Another loss which the country had sustained, was in the secession of the noble duke lately at the head of its military departments—not so much because the army was deprived of his experience and knowledge, as because the cabinet and councils of the country had no longer the benefit of them, and had thus lost what he considered its great moral strength. The noble duke was the only person in the cabinet who was able to maintain the relations of this country with the other governments of Europe, with that force and utility which knowledge and personal weight gave beyond mere diplomatic negotiations; and this no man, who knew any thing of foreign policy, would hesitate to acknowledge; and every body must regret that such a tone had been assumed in the correspondence of the 496 right hon. gentleman with the noble duke, as made it impossible for the latter to hold his office upon terms which were consistent with his reputation—He concurred with his noble friend (lord Londonderry) in the sentiment he had expressed of uncompromising hostility to the government as it was now composed; and he added to it one of sincere and ardent devotion to the Catholic cause, which no party feeling should ever induce him to abandon or neglect—not even the inducement of displacing an administration in which he had not the slightest confidence. He would not even be induced to attempt any thing to the detriment of such an administration, if he thought that at the same time he should do any thing detrimental to that question. He confessed, however, that he could not possibly comprehend the argument of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Canning), when he said, that he had advised his majesty to form an administration decidedly hostile to those claims which he had so warmly advocated. If, as it was to be gathered from his speech, the right hon. gentleman thought that an administration of that kind would entail so many calamities upon the country, and prove in itself a source of so much evil that it must necessarily fall to pieces to make way for him and his colleagues—he confessed he could not comprehend how advice of that kind, which must produce so much calamity, was reconcileable with that oath which the right hon. gentleman bound himself to fulfil when he was called upon to take part in his majesty's councils. Still less could he comprehend how the noble marquis (Lansdown) and his friends could with consistency join an administration of which that right hon. gentleman was to be the head. When he was told still further, however, that the Catholic question was not to be mentioned by that administration, unless there was a moral prospect of carrying it, he could not help feeling that the question was abandoned—that the support which had been hitherto afforded it was withdrawn, and that it stood now upon much worse grounds than when its opponents were at the head of the government. How was that question advanced but by discussion—continued discussion?—and if they were to be told that it was not to be discussed unless its supporters or proposers were confident of having a majority in both Houses of Parliament, then he would say, that it never 497 would be discussed at all, and that it must be considered as literally abandoned by its present supporters. How much more favourable would it have been, with the view of forwarding the interests of the Catholics, if it had been known that the influence of the First Lord of the Treasury would have been exerted in the attainment of the object they were seeking? As the administration was at present constituted, he would say, as a friend to the Catholics, that he considered its formation to have been the most deadly event to the success of the Catholic cause. If, however, he spoke as a Protestant advocate, he should declare that he could have no confidence in an administration in which the First Lord of the Treasury kept back the discussion of a question until he himself thought success was certain—a line of conduct which might be compared to laying a mine under the feet of his opponents to blow them into the air when he pleased. He thought that no honourable man could take office under an administration so constituted; and, if the noble marquis (Lansdown) did entertain an idea of associating himself with the noble lord who sat beneath him, he could only do so on the express belief, that by doing so he should further the success of the Catholic cause. He was happy that what he had said in the early part of the evening had drawn from some noble lords the full, the satisfactory, explanation which they had heard to night. He was sure that no one would think he had put those questions with any unfriendly view. On the contrary, he had done so with the best intentions; supposing, as he did, that it was impossible they could have been guilty of such conduct as had been imputed to them.
The Marquis of Angleseasaid, he was bound by no conditions; he was in every respect free as the air he breathed. However, whether in or out of office, he should feel it his duty to support the Throne—not that he meant to say that it was attacked, but that he considered his majesty to be fully at liberty at any time to form what administration he might think best suited to the wants of the country. If, therefore, any arrangements more conducive to the public good than those which now existed could be entered into, he should retire from office with the most perfect good humour. Before he sat down he must say, with respect to the insinua- 498 tions which had been thrown out, that he should not condescend to explain them away; but if he thought it right, he could show that he had pursued a course in diametrical opposition to that which had been insinuated.
The Earl of Winchelseashould not feel that he did justice to his own feelings if he did not say a few words upon this subject. He thought there never had been an era in our history like the present, since the time of the constitutional Revolution; so complete had been the change in every respect. A coalition, it seemed, had been formed of parties that had long been opposed to each other; and in this preposterous coalition, as he must call it, some one or other of the parties must have compromised his previous political opinions. The noble earl then contrasted the disinterestedness of the noble lords and gentlemen who had resigned their places, with the conduct of those now in office, and especially of the right hon. premier; and observed, that whoever considered the career which that right hon. gentleman had pursued, must be convinced that ambition and love of place had been the pivots of his political life. He believed that none of the supporters of that right hon. gentleman could explain truly, what were his sentiments upon the great questions of the government.
The petitions were ordered to lie on the table.