Lords Sitting of 28 March 1827

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Lord King,in presenting a petition from the Catholics of Ireland, relative to the Test Oaths, said, that the petitioners complained, and he thought most justly, of the cruel slanders cast upon them and upon their faith, by that law which requires every person called upon to take a seat in the legislature, or to perform the duties of a public office, to take certain oaths, by which every judge, bishop, or sheriff, was obliged to declare the Catholic religion was an execrable superstition, and the Catholics themselves to be base idolators. This proceeding, the petitioners considered most unjustifiable, and he entirely concurred with them in the opinion. Many petitions had been presented to their lordships against these calumniated Catholics by the right reverend bench, and great numbers had also been presented from bodies of the clergy, who evinced any thing but what was likely to create among their fellow-Christians charity, harmony, and good-will. He had lately read an extract from a German paper, and he could not help contrasting the conduct of our clergy with that of the king of Prussia, who had expressed his approbation of the manner in which a Catholic priest and a Lutheran parson had exerted themselves, in bringing about harmony and union between parties not professing the same faith. He could not help exclaiming on the occasion:—"Oh, happy people, and happy country! where nothing is to be gained by the profession of bigotry
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and intolerance—where you are not called upon to sacrifice every other consideration to please the advocates of Protestant ascendancy—and where the road to power is not through the presentation of pestilential petitions from Protestant parsons, nor from the scribbling of pamphlets, still more pestilential, to be afterwards preached as sermons in a chapel at no great distance from that House, in order to tickle the noble and learned lord who sat not far from him." In Prussia there were no attempts to make proselytes by mischievous and mistaken zealots, or uncandid and aspiring politicians—men who, to suit their own views, declare a crusade against the Catholics, and assert the finger of God to be visible in every movement. Enthusiasts in religion might think, and artful politicians might be ready to say, whether they thought it or not, that the Almighty favoured their enterprise; but, he would tell these zealots and interested enthusiasts, that unless the modern crusaders had more inspiration, as well as more success, than the old hermit and his adherents, there was but little probability of their converting, the "benighted people of Ireland." It had been happily observed, in one of the daily journals, that it was as feasible to bring about such an event—the grand consummation of converting the "benighted people of Ireland," as it was to attempt to "bottle off the Atlantic ocean." But, against those Protestant jesuits—those never-ceasing conversionists, the very best authority would be found in a charge delivered by the present archbishop of Cashel, who stated it to be his opinion, that in attempting to proselytize, it was advisable that they should look not merely to the probability of success, but to something more; namely, that such attempt might be fraught with danger to Christianity itself. He had heard of great danger to our finances by a few pepper-corns being brought into the Exchequer at the expense of millions, so there might be imminent danger by a few converts being brought into the church at the expense of the religion of the country. How ever, some political priests cried "Woe be to those who interfere with the blessed work of this new reformation." But those who cried "Woe, woe" were ready to inflict woe upon others, while they were ready to undergo martyrdom; but, very fortunately for themselves it was only the martyrdom of promotion.
Earl Stanhopeobserved, that his noble friend, in the observations he had made with respect to the state of religious sects in Prussia, and the treatment they received from the state, entirely overlooked the fact, that in Germany there were no popular constitutions. if there were no elements of a popular constitution in this country, he would be as willing as the noble baron to concede to the Roman Catholics the whole of their demands; but in a country where all the institutions were decidedly and entirely Protestant, he was convinced that no further powers could with safety be granted to them. He could not help observing, that some remedy must be applied to the condition of Ireland, which would strike at the root of those evils under which that country at present suffered.
The Bishop of Chester,notwithstanding the very strong language and the direct personal allusions of the noble baron opposite—allusions which he had made in language extending far beyond the usual parliamentary licence—would have been contented to listen to the noble lord's observations in silence, and to have practised that lesson of Christian charity which the noble lord seemed not yet to have learned—a lesson which taught him never to apply hard words to the innocent and unoffending, had he not felt the subject which gave rise to those observations to be of paramount importance. The noble lord had alluded, with something like contempt, to what he had said on a former evening with regard to the progress of the reformation in Ireland. Now he was quite sure he had on that occasion uttered no sentiments which were inconsistent with Christian charity or Christian kindness towards persons of all religions whatever. If they were to believe in reformation at all, or in the accounts of those events by which the most remarkable reformations were preceded, they must be prepared to admit, that some signs must be shown when Ireland was to be enlightened; that some symptoms must be manifest to point out the time when the work was to be undertaken. And if there were at present in Ireland some of those symptoms, was it not, he would ask, the duty of a Christian teacher not to cast reproach and rebuke upon those appearances of the reception of truth, but rather to foster and encourage them? With reference to
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the observation which he had made in that House upon the hope of the conversion of the Catholics, and which the noble lord had made the subject of so much comment, by the expression that "he thought he saw the finger of God in the recent conversion of the Catholics of Ireland, and that woe would be to those who should presume to lift up their hands and voices in vain and impotent attempting to stem the flood of Gospel light that was bursting over the country," he begged to say most distinctly, that he did not intend to declare spiritual or temporal woe to those who opposed the will of the Most High. But he would repeat, that if any man did attempt to stand up against the will of God, and oppose his puny efforts to such will, woe would be to him sooner or later. He had only one word to add, by way of encouragement to those who were engaged in the work of reformation. He had endeavoured, as a member of the legislative assembly, to speak in terms of prudence and caution of those evils which, in such an attempt, were to be avoided, and to guard against that kind of hostile opposition which nothing but the union of great worldly wisdom with the most devoted piety could possibly counteract; and he hoped that in doing so he had not made use of expressions which were averse to the profession of a minister of God.
Lord Hollandsaid, he did not wish to prolong the present conversation, which he thought could not tend to any useful purpose, which he knew was irrelevant to the petition before the House, and which was altogether unconnected with the great question upon which they had been so frequently called to decide. He could not, however, suffer the matter to terminate, without observing, that the right reverend prelate who, if he would permit him to borrow one of his own phrases, was one of the most polished weapons of the ecclesiastical armoury in that House, had begun by rebuking the noble lord for having introduced his petition by the use of hard words, while the right reverend prelate seemed to have forgotten, that the whole proceeding was founded on the use of hard words, and that the very matter of complaint, on the part of the Catholics, was the application of those hard words, which it was contended ought to be exercised against those who used them in return. The whole matter reminded him

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of a little anecdote which he had found in an old Spanish jest book. In Spain, the flocks of sheep are often in danger from the wolves, and the shepherds, as a protection, arm themselves with a long spear, tipped with iron at one end, and, at the same time, avail themselves of the assistance of a large dog. Now, it happened that one of these shepherds and a dog had a quarrel, and the shepherd, in defending himself against the dog, killed him with his spear. The shepherd was seized by the owner of the dog and carried before the alcalde, to be tried for the offence. "Why," said the magistrate, "did you kill the dog?" The shepherd replied, "because he ran at me with his mouth open, to bite."—"And why did you strike him with the spear of your stick; why not rather strike him with the butt end, and beat him off?"—"Because," said the shepherd, "he came against me with his mouth foremost, and not with his tail."So it was with the Catholics. The Protestants called them idolatrous and superstitious; they loaded them with the most opprobrious and insulting expressions; they goaded them on to violence; and then they affected to feel surprise, when the Catholics attempted to retort upon them any portion of that language, or that insult. With regard to the conversion of the Catholics, or the new reformation, as it is called, what that had to do with the question of emancipation he had yet to learn. Either it must be admitted that it had nothing to do with the question, or it must be meant that the penal laws were to assist the work of conversion, and to force forward the work of reformation. If that was so, then he would call the proceeding persecution. To make use of a temporal weapon for spiritual purposes, was, to all intents and purposes, persecution. If, however, it was conceded, that the work of conversion had nothing to do with the question, then they were equally subject to the reproach of making use of spiritual weapons for carnal and temporal purposes, and equally guilty of persecution. In either way, therefore, what they were now doing meant nothing, or it meant to give countenance to persecution. The right reverend prelate had, however, gone further, and had denounced woe to all those who should attempt to lift up their hands to stay the flood of light.
The Bishop of Chestersaid, he had not
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uttered anything of the kind. He had said, when that reformation began, woe be to him, who should attempt to stem the flood.
Lord Hollandcontinued. Well, "when that reformation began," was a saving clause certainly. But in whatever way the woe might be applied, he apprehended there might unhappily be found some who were not unwilling to use it. But there was another point to which he wished to call their lordships' attention. When the question of Catholic emancipation was discussed in that House, he recollected perfectly well, that the merits and demerits of the Catholic religion formed, with some learned and reverend lords, one of the most prominent topics. The merits of the Catholic religion discussed among Protestants, and where none but Protestants were present! He would not say how such a proceeding might be considered in that House; but, in private society, the discussion and the decision of a question in which two parties were interested, and only one was present, would be considered ungentleman-like and uncharitable. He recollected, too, that one of the topics dwelt upon as a ground of hostility to the claims of the Catholics, was the anxiety to make proselytes, which characterized those who professed the Catholic faith. Now, he would say that the House must make choice of one of two things. They must either say that it is not right to blazon forth the deeds done in the cause of reformation, and to harangue upon the interposition of God on behalf of the purer and better faith, or they must admit that they, the Catholics, are also to be commended for their zeal to produce reformation. And they must, perhaps, even go further, and judge of both by the effects of their labours, declaring that religion to be the purest which produced the most abundant proofs of the truth of their faith. He would ask, was any man disposed to go thus far, and place the truth of the faith of Protestants upon such a trial, and the purity of its doctrines, and its favour and acceptance with the Supreme Being, upon a constant alternation of temporary triumphs? He concurred in opinion with the just and exemplary archbishop of Cashel, whom he was sorry not to see in his place, and whom he would be proud to have the pleasure of knowing personally, and whose near relationship to the wise and comprehensive-minded Dr. Law-

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rence left no surprise upon his mind that he had trod in his steps. That truly Christian prelate had given it as his opinion, that any attempt to convert the Catholics of Ireland would be attended with bad effects; and that whether the cause of Protestantism would gain was dubious, but that the cause of Christianity would lose, was certain.
Lord Carberysaid, that noble lords opposite seemed to think, that all the hard words ought to be used on the one side, and none on the other. The Catholics were, he contended, more inclined to make use of strong expressions than the Protestants, and went so far as to declare that no Protestant was entitled to salvation.
Ordered to lie on the table.