Lord Kingsaid, he had several petitions to present to their lordships from a small portion of that oppressed class of people, who, in the last petition he had laid upon the table of that House, described themselves as the most poor and wretched people in Europe—he meant the Roman Catholics of Ireland. The first petition was a most loyal one. It contained as strong expressions of 1014 loyalty as if it had been drawn up by the learned lord on the wool-sack, and had more charity than if it had been drawn up by the whole bench of bishops. It came from the parish of Boyle, in the county of Roscommon.
Lord Lortondid not wish to oppose the petition being received, but he was anxious to make a few observations upon it. That petition might be the means of bringing him as a criminal before their lordships' bar; and their lordships would understand what he meant, when he read to them a speech made in another place [cries of "Order"]. He did not allude to any hon. member of the House of Commons, but to a member of the Irish Roman Catholic parliament. The speech of that person was in Ins hand, and with their lordships' permission he would read a part of it. It was as follows:—"Mr. O'Connell rose to speak against the unconstitutional conduct of lord Lorton, which ought to be represented to parliament, in interfering with people in the right of petitioning. It was in the year 1688, that king James was hurled from his throne for interfering with the people in the exercise of that right, which was the very essence of the British constitution. If such interference was thought sufficient by the people of England to cashier a monarch, what ought to be done towards lord Lorton, the petty tyrant of a village, for the same conduct?" Their lordships had just now heard a specimen of the proceedings of the Irish parliament, which would be truly laughable, were it not for the effect such language and such denunciations must have on the minds of a deluded people. The natural inference to be drawn from such language was, that the person proscribed was a tyrant, and hostile to the just rights of the people. The whole charge originated from a conversation he had held with two or three hundred of his tenants, upon the subject of that petition. He had recommended them not to interfere in any way with the petition which some individuals in the town wished to get up, as there was a general petition about to proceed from the whole county, which was to be presented by the duke of Buckingham. After some conversation, and without any threat being used, he parted with the persons assembled with a kindly feeling, and with the understanding that they would not attend the meeting where the petition in question was to be proposed. The 1015 meeting did take place on the following Sunday in the Roman Catholic chapel, the coadjutor priest being in the chair, attended by persons who had lodgings in the town, but who had no other connexion with it whatever. After a great deal of abuse, the petition was carried. A report of the proceedings was sent up to Dublin, stating the whole transaction to the Catholic convention, through the means of emissaries, with the object merely to produce mischief. He had been for twenty-seven years constantly among the people, but he had never made a difference between a Catholic or a Protestant, either in his character of master of a family, of a landlord, or as a commander of a body of militia; for wherever a good soldier was, he was promoted without any distinction. Since he last had the honour of addressing their lordships, he had been animadverted upon in the Catholic convention by Messrs. O'Connell and Lawless, the latter of whom was the editor of a newspaper called the "Irishman," in which he had published his own speech. In one of the late, meetings of that body, he had thought proper to say, that the observation contained in the speech attributed to lord Lorton, that the Protestants of Ireland were persecuted, was a lie; and that he would, at any expense, tell the noble lord the same to his face at the bar of the House of Lords. It was not his intention to move that Mr. Lawless should appear before their lordships, because he knew that that, was the very thing he most ardently desired, and he should be sorry to make the man of so much consequence. He thought, however, that their lordships should take measures to put down that convention, from which much mischief had arisen, and which it was a disgrace to the country that it was allowed to continue.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that parliament had tried to put down that association, but had utterly failed; and would, so long as it left in existence the cause which produced that association; but he must say, that if the noble lord did not wish to give any consequence to the speeches of the men who attended that meeting, he should have adopted a better course; than answering in the House of Lords the charges of a set of persons who met in a room in Dublin.
Lord Lortonsaid, it was very easy for noble lords who had never been in Ireland to get up and exhort others to retrain from 1016 speaking on such subjects as he had just mentioned. He would advise such noble lords to go to Ireland for a year or two. If the noble lord who had last spoken would go to that country for twelvemonths or so, he would then fall into his way of thinking. But he must confess that he could not keep his temper when a noble lord, who knew nothing of Ireland but what, he might have heard in his walks through London, or have learned in that House, got up in the way he had done, and attempted to put him down. He threw himself upon the protection of the House, He could produce various letters from his friends, urging him to bring the individual he had alluded to to the bar of that House, but he had declined doing so, because he knew that notoriety was his object.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the noble viscount was mistaken in supposing that he was a stranger to Ireland. He had visited that country several times, and had been there for seven or eight months. He had also been present at the meeting of the very convention alluded to by the noble viscount, and had heard a debate upon the important subject of education, in which the principal speakers took a part, and he had never heard any thing more despicable than those speeches, nor ever saw persons more contemptible than those speakers in the whole course of his life.
Lord Lortonsaid, he would not occupy their lordships' time any longer; for if he were to speak all night long, he was sure he would not be able to convince that noble lord.
§ Lord Redesdalewas convinced, that if the association was allowed to exist much longer, it would bring on a civil war in Ireland.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he certainly would have wished to have observed the promise he had given on a former occasion, not to trouble them with his sentiments with respect to any thing referring to this question, until the subject should be brought regularly before the House, and he hoped and trusted that, the notice of motion which had been given by a noble marquis would not be abandoned, in order that the House might fairly meet the question, and come to some decision upon it. He should, therefore, not have troubled himself now with making any observations, had not his noble friend (lord King)—if he would allow him to call him by that 1017 name—for he had always acted with great kindness to that noble lord, who had, however, shown no little hostility towards him—thought proper to refer to the learned lord on the wool sack, and to state that the petition he presented was one which was drawn up in such a way, that there, was hardly any thing in it to which that learned lord would not agree; and he therefore begged to state, that there was scarcely one word in it which he did not reprobate. With respect to the paragraph which had been read by a noble lord from an Irish newspaper, he certainly did not know what to do with it; for, as to any observations that might be made at the convention, as the noble lord called it, unless they were made upon the proceedings of that House, their lordships had nothing to do with it. He could not help believing that a great deal was going on in Ireland, of which their lordships had no idea. One noble lord was called a liar in one of the papers of that country. But if noble lords published their speeches—which was something very like a breach of privilege—the observations upon those speeches formed no foundation for any proceeding by their lordships; but if those observations were stated to be a comment upon the debates of that House, he knew very well how to proceed. He could not, however, believe, upon the authority of newspapers, that such things had passed in Ireland; because he was quite sure it was impossible that such things could pass there, if evidence were taken to juries, proving that an individual of the legislature had been abused in that convention. He, therefore, must be of opinion, that such things had not passed in that country as had been represented.
The Marquis of Lansdown, after the allusion which had been made to the notice of a motion which stood for to-morrow sennight, thought it his duty to state, that he had not intended to open his mouth on the subject, until he gave their lordships notice to-morrow night, with respect to his intention of bringing forward his motion or not, after what had occurred elsewhere. But, whether he should still avail himself of the right to bring forward his motion—and in the exercise of that right he should pursue that course which appeared to him most desirable for the attainment of the great end he had in view; whether he should still bring forward his motion, or whether he should not, he 1018 would state his reasons most fully, either for bringing it forward, or for abstaining to do so.
The Earl of Clancartyexpressed his sorrow, that the bill for putting down the Catholic Association had ever been introduced into parliament. It was an injudicious measure. The common law of the country was sufficient of itself for the purpose; and it was the duty of the law officers of the Crown to put that law into effect. The learned lord on the woolsack did not seem to place much reliance upon those publications, in which an account was given of the most extraordinary proceeding which had taken place in the Catholic Association. He must say, that he differed entirely from him. He felt convinced, that as much passed in that meeting as ever met the eye of the public. With respect to the conduct of the law officers of the Crown, that he thought required some explanation. He should be very sorry to be connected with those who stood in the character of law officers in Ireland, because they appeared to act with considerable negligence, in what he should conceive to be the public business of the country.
§ The Earl of Kingstonsaid, he was satisfied that the petition expressed the sentiments of the town from which it proceeded; but he believed that three well-known individuals had done more harm to the cause of the Catholics than anything else.
§ Lord Clifdendid not rise to defend the disgraceful language which their lordships had but lately heard. The use of such language had done great injury to the cause of Catholic emancipation. Noble lords talked about putting down the Association. At the time when the duke of Richmond went over to Ireland, they had tried to put down the convention of Catholics. Prosecutions were instituted; torrents of abuse ensued. Some of the prosecutions failed, and others were successful. But what was the upshot? The Catholics still continued to meet; and they always would meet; for it was impossible to crush millions. He extremely regretted the rejection of a measure, in another place, intended for the peace of Ireland. The Apostolic party in France and Spain would receive, with transports of joy the news of the failure of that measure, 1019 and would take advantage of it. Spain looked with jealousy upon the Portuguese constitution. She knew she must fall to ruins if that constitution continued, and she would therefore make every endeavour to put it down. We were bound to protect Portugal, and France to defend herally, Spain. If war arose, we should fall foul of France. The trade of America must be carried on in neutral bottoms; and then would arise the right of search, which would involve us in a war with America; in which country he was sorry to say that no friendly feeling existed towards us. The press of America was mostly in the hands of his countrymen, who had been driven from Ireland. Their lordships might then conceive the condition which this country would be placed in, and what would be the consequences of again being entangled in war; within an inch of which he believed it to be at present, and which could only be averted by conceding to the Catholics their just rights.
The Earl of Mountcashelrose to deprecate the assertions which had been made by the noble viscount who had just sat down, and which only echoed the sentiments of the demagogues of the Catholic Association. It was such language that gave those orators courage. It was repeated from the north to the south, and from the west to the east, and the people took fire at it. He asked their lordships, whether such language was not likely to increase the dissatisfaction which already existed? He could not sit quietly and listen to such observations; especially when they came from one who was, he must speak plainly, an absentee from his country. The demagogues in Ireland would make use of them for their own advantage. They would say, "it is impossible to put down the Catholics; it is impossible to resist the expression of sentiments uttered by millions of men." It was very easy to mention numbers. Now, taking the population of Ireland to be seven millions, which he believed to be the utmost, there were out of that number one million two hundred thousand members of the Church of England and Dissenters; and, in addition to that, there were eight hundred thousand Presbyterians, making altogether two millions. There would, of course, remain five millions of Catholics, being a proportion of five to one, or of two Roman Catholics and a half to one Protestant. That was not such a mighty dis- 1020 proportion as to make the Protestants tremble at the speeches of O'Connell and Sheil, if they acted with one mind, and continued faithful to their king and country. There was a system of bullying carried on in Ireland, an attempt to stop the mouths of the Protestants; but it would not be found successful.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that a clear proof at least of the perfect impotence of the Catholic Association appeared in the fact, that they had been unable to effect the irobjects of closing the lips of the noble lord who had last spoken. For himself, he was very glad that they had failed in any such endeavour; and should always be happy to hear the opinions of the noble lord upon the political prospects both of this country and Ireland, provided that he and his friends were allowed the opportunity of refuting them.
§ Ordered to lie on the table.