Lords Sitting of 8 March 1827

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
Lord Kingsaid, he had several petitions to present to their lordships from a small portion of that oppressed class of people, who, in the last petition he had laid upon the table of that House, described themselves as the most poor and wretched people in Europe—he meant the Roman Catholics of Ireland. The first petition was a most loyal one. It contained as strong expressions of
1014
loyalty as if it had been drawn up by the learned lord on the wool-sack, and had more charity than if it had been drawn up by the whole bench of bishops. It came from the parish of Boyle, in the county of Roscommon.
Lord Lortondid not wish to oppose the petition being received, but he was anxious to make a few observations upon it. That petition might be the means of bringing him as a criminal before their lordships' bar; and their lordships would understand what he meant, when he read to them a speech made in another place [cries of "Order"]. He did not allude to any hon. member of the House of Commons, but to a member of the Irish Roman Catholic parliament. The speech of that person was in Ins hand, and with their lordships' permission he would read a part of it. It was as follows:—"Mr. O'Connell rose to speak against the unconstitutional conduct of lord Lorton, which ought to be represented to parliament, in interfering with people in the right of petitioning. It was in the year 1688, that king James was hurled from his throne for interfering with the people in the exercise of that right, which was the very essence of the British constitution. If such interference was thought sufficient by the people of England to cashier a monarch, what ought to be done towards lord Lorton, the petty tyrant of a village, for the same conduct?" Their lordships had just now heard a specimen of the proceedings of the Irish parliament, which would be truly laughable, were it not for the effect such language and such denunciations must have on the minds of a deluded people. The natural inference to be drawn from such language was, that the person proscribed was a tyrant, and hostile to the just rights of the people. The whole charge originated from a conversation he had held with two or three hundred of his tenants, upon the subject of that petition. He had recommended them not to interfere in any way with the petition which some individuals in the town wished to get up, as there was a general petition about to proceed from the whole county, which was to be presented by the duke of Buckingham. After some conversation, and without any threat being used, he parted with the persons assembled with a kindly feeling, and with the understanding that they would not attend the meeting where the petition in question was to be proposed. The

1015
meeting did take place on the following Sunday in the Roman Catholic chapel, the coadjutor priest being in the chair, attended by persons who had lodgings in the town, but who had no other connexion with it whatever. After a great deal of abuse, the petition was carried. A report of the proceedings was sent up to Dublin, stating the whole transaction to the Catholic convention, through the means of emissaries, with the object merely to produce mischief. He had been for twenty-seven years constantly among the people, but he had never made a difference between a Catholic or a Protestant, either in his character of master of a family, of a landlord, or as a commander of a body of militia; for wherever a good soldier was, he was promoted without any distinction. Since he last had the honour of addressing their lordships, he had been animadverted upon in the Catholic convention by Messrs. O'Connell and Lawless, the latter of whom was the editor of a newspaper called the "Irishman," in which he had published his own speech. In one of the late, meetings of that body, he had thought proper to say, that the observation contained in the speech attributed to lord Lorton, that the Protestants of Ireland were persecuted, was a lie; and that he would, at any expense, tell the noble lord the same to his face at the bar of the House of Lords. It was not his intention to move that Mr. Lawless should appear before their lordships, because he knew that that, was the very thing he most ardently desired, and he should be sorry to make the man of so much consequence. He thought, however, that their lordships should take measures to put down that convention, from which much mischief had arisen, and which it was a disgrace to the country that it was allowed to continue.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that parliament had tried to put down that association, but had utterly failed; and would, so long as it left in existence the cause which produced that association; but he must say, that if the noble lord did not wish to give any consequence to the speeches of the men who attended that meeting, he should have adopted a better course; than answering in the House of Lords the charges of a set of persons who met in a room in Dublin.
Lord Lortonsaid, it was very easy for noble lords who had never been in Ireland to get up and exhort others to retrain from
1016
speaking on such subjects as he had just mentioned. He would advise such noble lords to go to Ireland for a year or two. If the noble lord who had last spoken would go to that country for twelvemonths or so, he would then fall into his way of thinking. But he must confess that he could not keep his temper when a noble lord, who knew nothing of Ireland but what, he might have heard in his walks through London, or have learned in that House, got up in the way he had done, and attempted to put him down. He threw himself upon the protection of the House, He could produce various letters from his friends, urging him to bring the individual he had alluded to to the bar of that House, but he had declined doing so, because he knew that notoriety was his object.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the noble viscount was mistaken in supposing that he was a stranger to Ireland. He had visited that country several times, and had been there for seven or eight months. He had also been present at the meeting of the very convention alluded to by the noble viscount, and had heard a debate upon the important subject of education, in which the principal speakers took a part, and he had never heard any thing more despicable than those speeches, nor ever saw persons more contemptible than those speakers in the whole course of his life.
Lord Lortonsaid, he would not occupy their lordships' time any longer; for if he were to speak all night long, he was sure he would not be able to convince that noble lord.
Lord Redesdalewas convinced, that if the association was allowed to exist much longer, it would bring on a civil war in Ireland.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he certainly would have wished to have observed the promise he had given on a former occasion, not to trouble them with his sentiments with respect to any thing referring to this question, until the subject should be brought regularly before the House, and he hoped and trusted that, the notice of motion which had been given by a noble marquis would not be abandoned, in order that the House might fairly meet the question, and come to some decision upon it. He should, therefore, not have troubled himself now with making any observations, had not his noble friend (lord King)—if he would allow him to call him by that

1017
name—for he had always acted with great kindness to that noble lord, who had, however, shown no little hostility towards him—thought proper to refer to the learned lord on the wool sack, and to state that the petition he presented was one which was drawn up in such a way, that there, was hardly any thing in it to which that learned lord would not agree; and he therefore begged to state, that there was scarcely one word in it which he did not reprobate. With respect to the paragraph which had been read by a noble lord from an Irish newspaper, he certainly did not know what to do with it; for, as to any observations that might be made at the convention, as the noble lord called it, unless they were made upon the proceedings of that House, their lordships had nothing to do with it. He could not help believing that a great deal was going on in Ireland, of which their lordships had no idea. One noble lord was called a liar in one of the papers of that country. But if noble lords published their speeches—which was something very like a breach of privilege—the observations upon those speeches formed no foundation for any proceeding by their lordships; but if those observations were stated to be a comment upon the debates of that House, he knew very well how to proceed. He could not, however, believe, upon the authority of newspapers, that such things had passed in Ireland; because he was quite sure it was impossible that such things could pass there, if evidence were taken to juries, proving that an individual of the legislature had been abused in that convention. He, therefore, must be of opinion, that such things had not passed in that country as had been represented.
The Marquis of Lansdown, after the allusion which had been made to the notice of a motion which stood for to-morrow sennight, thought it his duty to state, that he had not intended to open his mouth on the subject, until he gave their lordships notice to-morrow night, with respect to his intention of bringing forward his motion or not, after what had occurred elsewhere. But, whether he should still avail himself of the right to bring forward his motion—and in the exercise of that right he should pursue that course which appeared to him most desirable for the attainment of the great end he had in view; whether he should still bring forward his motion, or whether he should not, he
1018
would state his reasons most fully, either for bringing it forward, or for abstaining to do so.
The Earl of Clancartyexpressed his sorrow, that the bill for putting down the Catholic Association had ever been introduced into parliament. It was an injudicious measure. The common law of the country was sufficient of itself for the purpose; and it was the duty of the law officers of the Crown to put that law into effect. The learned lord on the woolsack did not seem to place much reliance upon those publications, in which an account was given of the most extraordinary proceeding which had taken place in the Catholic Association. He must say, that he differed entirely from him. He felt convinced, that as much passed in that meeting as ever met the eye of the public. With respect to the conduct of the law officers of the Crown, that he thought required some explanation. He should be very sorry to be connected with those who stood in the character of law officers in Ireland, because they appeared to act with considerable negligence, in what he should conceive to be the public business of the country.
Lord Kingwished to state, that there was not one objectionable word in the petition.
The Earl of Kingstonsaid, he was satisfied that the petition expressed the sentiments of the town from which it proceeded; but he believed that three well-known individuals had done more harm to the cause of the Catholics than anything else.
Lord Clifdendid not rise to defend the disgraceful language which their lordships had but lately heard. The use of such language had done great injury to the cause of Catholic emancipation. Noble lords talked about putting down the Association. At the time when the duke of Richmond went over to Ireland, they had tried to put down the convention of Catholics. Prosecutions were instituted; torrents of abuse ensued. Some of the prosecutions failed, and others were successful. But what was the upshot? The Catholics still continued to meet; and they always would meet; for it was impossible to crush millions. He extremely regretted the rejection of a measure, in another place, intended for the peace of Ireland. The Apostolic party in France and Spain would receive, with transports of joy the news of the failure of that measure,

1019
and would take advantage of it. Spain looked with jealousy upon the Portuguese constitution. She knew she must fall to ruins if that constitution continued, and she would therefore make every endeavour to put it down. We were bound to protect Portugal, and France to defend herally, Spain. If war arose, we should fall foul of France. The trade of America must be carried on in neutral bottoms; and then would arise the right of search, which would involve us in a war with America; in which country he was sorry to say that no friendly feeling existed towards us. The press of America was mostly in the hands of his countrymen, who had been driven from Ireland. Their lordships might then conceive the condition which this country would be placed in, and what would be the consequences of again being entangled in war; within an inch of which he believed it to be at present, and which could only be averted by conceding to the Catholics their just rights.
The Earl of Mountcashelrose to deprecate the assertions which had been made by the noble viscount who had just sat down, and which only echoed the sentiments of the demagogues of the Catholic Association. It was such language that gave those orators courage. It was repeated from the north to the south, and from the west to the east, and the people took fire at it. He asked their lordships, whether such language was not likely to increase the dissatisfaction which already existed? He could not sit quietly and listen to such observations; especially when they came from one who was, he must speak plainly, an absentee from his country. The demagogues in Ireland would make use of them for their own advantage. They would say, "it is impossible to put down the Catholics; it is impossible to resist the expression of sentiments uttered by millions of men." It was very easy to mention numbers. Now, taking the population of Ireland to be seven millions, which he believed to be the utmost, there were out of that number one million two hundred thousand members of the Church of England and Dissenters; and, in addition to that, there were eight hundred thousand Presbyterians, making altogether two millions. There would, of course, remain five millions of Catholics, being a proportion of five to one, or of two Roman Catholics and a half to one Protestant. That was not such a mighty dis-
1020
proportion as to make the Protestants tremble at the speeches of O'Connell and Sheil, if they acted with one mind, and continued faithful to their king and country. There was a system of bullying carried on in Ireland, an attempt to stop the mouths of the Protestants; but it would not be found successful.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that a clear proof at least of the perfect impotence of the Catholic Association appeared in the fact, that they had been unable to effect the irobjects of closing the lips of the noble lord who had last spoken. For himself, he was very glad that they had failed in any such endeavour; and should always be happy to hear the opinions of the noble lord upon the political prospects both of this country and Ireland, provided that he and his friends were allowed the opportunity of refuting them.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS—NEW SCALE OF DUTIES.
The Earl of Lauderdalerose, pursuant to notice, to move for a select committee, to inquire into the terms and prices, subject to which foreign grain, independent of duty, could at present be imported into England. He had been in doubt, the noble lord said, when he had first heard the course intimated, upon which ministers were about to proceed in their inquiry into the system of the Corn-laws, whether it would be better for him to move, as he was now about to do, for the appointment of a committee, or to come down to the House at once, with resolutions upon the subject. Under that uncertainty, he had made up his mind, as the House was, at last, so near being made acquainted with the mysterious secret of what was to be done with respect to the Corn-laws, to wait to see what the actual plan was, before he took any step in opposition to it; and certainly, if any proposition more than another could have made the motion with which he was about to conclude absolutely necessary, it was the proposition into which the long-concealed and curious policy of the noble lords opposite had at length resolved itself. The plan proposed was not merely of a character such as had never before been adopted in this country, but such, he would venture to say, as never had been heard of before in any community endowed with common reason: it was a plan to levy a duty upon a commodity to

1021
be taxed, to be rated, by the price of another commodity which was not to be taxed. It said for example, that when the price of corn in this country was at 60 s. foreign corn, without any reference to its own price, should be imported at 20 s. duty; and that this duty of 20 s., without any regard to the fluctuations of the article on which it was to be paid, should become higher or lower, as the price of British corn rose above the average of 60 s. or fell below it. Why, surely, this very principle of proceeding was not more in the teeth of all precedent than of common sense. Surely, the natural and reasonable course for the legislature to have pursued, in attempting to fix the duty at which foreign corn ought to be admitted into this country, would have been to have endeavoured to ascertain, as nearly as possible, at what price it could be brought here—to have determined the fair price at which corn could be grown in England—to have ascertained the price at which it could be exported from abroad—and to have imposed such a duty, as would have made the one equal to the other. He knew the reason perfectly well, why the present slovenly course had been preferred. The fact was, that, with reference to fixing the price of foreign corn, there were scarcely two ports on the continent at which the price of corn would be found the same. If this had been attempted, difficulties in abundance would have arisen: there must have been a graduated scale made out for the different prices and qualities of corn; and even then the mere difference of seasons would have been sufficient to render any plan fixed with an anxiety for fairness abortive. It seemed never to have been recollected, that our ancestors must have viewed, and speculated upon, this subject—that they had seen the advantage of establishing a fairly graduated scale, could it have been done, but that they had shrunk from the task, because they felt that it would be impossible to go through with it. But the present government seemed to have no other desire than to hold itself ready for any experiment which might be suggested, for tampering with and involving the affairs of the country in difficulties. What must be the first consequence of the scheme under consideration, if it was adopted? Let any man in the House tell him what data any tenant could have to offer rent for a farm upon,
1022
or any landlord to accept it? The noble lord near him (lord King) was accustomed to speak of the avarice of the landed interest. He rebutted the charge, and he knew that if a harsh or an avaricious project were proposed, the landowners would be the first to revolt at and to oppose it. But what noble lord, he asked, would rise up in the House and state any rule by which, subject to the new arrangement, any proprietor could be sure that he did justice to his tenant and to himself in leasing him a farm? In the country in which his property lay, most of the land was held upon lease; much of it was also held upon lease in England, although a good deal was taken merely upon the word and good faith of that landed interest which the noble lord was so much disposed to vilify. He would never have stood up to argue the question in that House, if he had not felt that he supported the manufacturer even more than the agriculturist, in desiring that those laws which had been acted upon in this country for four hundred years, and which were interwoven in a manner with the constitution, should continue to be upheld at the present day. He was told by a party of theorists, who proceeded not by argument or reason, but, like the noble lord near him, by assertions firmly and continually repeated, that the landed interest enjoyed a monopoly in this country: A monopoly, as he understood the word, implied that either a single individual, or a number of individuals combining, had the market for any given commodity so completely in their hands as to be able to influence the price at pleasure. Did any man mean to say that the corn market was in that situation in this country? Did they believe that five hundred and sixty thousand persons, all, from peculiar circumstances, placed perhaps in different situations as regarded their interests—some capitalists, who could afford to wait for a price—some men without capital, who must sell from hand to mouth—some just entering into farms—some selling their stock in order to quit them—did any body believe that these men could combine, so as to raise the price of corn in England when they thought fit? If noble lords looked back to the best times of our history—times when there was no importation of corn at all—where was the instance of a cry of monopoly then? But if the proposition before the House was

1023
carried, there would be monopoly enough; there would soon be a monopoly in the corn market whatever there might be of the landowners. It was said, that this plan had been brought forward after much trouble and consideration. Let the House see to what it directly tended. Let them just suppose any party of the great merchants of this country, of whose extent of capital and facilities for speculation every body was aware, let them suppose a party of merchants combining for a speculation in the corn market. Nothing could be more simple and easy than to do this: nothing more certain than that it would be done. At one period, he recollected, an attempt had been made to give some freedom of trade in corn; but the combination of the merchants had actually destroyed it, and compelled the government to interfere. The new system gave a convenience to jobbing in the corn market far above that already in existence; seeing that a weekly average was so much more easily effected than an average of three months; the quantity of capital required for such an operation being considerably less. Now, at 60 s. average in England, corn, according to the new-scheme, might be imported at 20 s. duty. Was it an extravagant supposition, that a party of merchants purchasing a million of quarters of foreign corn, and having it ready to throw into the market of this country, might, by a sudden purchase of British corn to the amount of 200,000 l., raise the average from 60 s. to 70 s.; thereby getting their foreign corn in at 1s. a quarter duty, instead of 20 s. and clearing a million sterling by their speculation? It was weakness to suppose that this would not be done, if there was a possibility of doing it. No merchants in the world ever abstained from combining, when they found it to their interest to do so. If this scheme was persevered in, the effect of it would be no less than allowing corn to come to England duty-free from all quarters of the world. He should presently show the House at what price foreign corn could really be imported: but the principle here was too important to be lightly lost sight of, for it was impossible that it should not end in the absolute ruin of the British agriculturist, and in leaving the country dependent upon foreigners for its supply. Of all the seasons which his experience had witnessed, the present was certainly the most
1024
extraordinary that could have been devised for trying such an experiment. Only two years ago, the House had been told, in the most authoritative terms, in a declaration no less solemn than the Speech of his Majesty in person, in February, 1825, that there never had been a period in the history of the country, in which all ranks and orders of the people had been so contented. Yet, what was the price of corn at the time when that speech was delivered? It was 69 s. a quarter. What was the price now, when experiments were to be resorted to, to save the country from ruin and monopoly? It was 53 s. Would it be contended, that 53 s. was an unreasonable price? No, it would not; for the deception of the new plan was, that it hung out a sort of semblance of considering 60 s. an average remunerating price. The fact was, that it gave no security up to that price; or to any thing approaching to that price. The probability was, that, one year with another, taking the average of seasons, foreign corn would be capable of being brought into this country at 25 s. a quarter. The pivot upon which the new plan turned was this—at a price of 60 s. in the home market, corn might, be imported at 20 s duty; and as corn in the home market rose or fell 1s. a quarter in price, the duty on foreign corn—taking the contrary motion—rose or fell 2s. a quarter. Now suppose the price of foreign corn in this country to be 25 s.—and he was ready to prove to the House that, within the last, month, corn had been landed from the Baltic as low as 23 s.—but granting it to be 25 s., the price of corn in this country now being 55 s., there would be a duty of 30 s., making the whole cost 55 s., so that even at the present low price of corn, the new scale of duty gave no protection to the home farmer. But this was the least of the evil; the scale must be more carefully examined. Because, suppose that foreign corn rose to 30 s., then, say the price was 60 s. in the home market, and the duty payable consequently 20 s.; so far from being a protection, the foreign corn cost only 50 s., and we were undersold 10 s. a quarter in our own markets. Then go further still, and suppose foreign corn to reach the price (which was hardly possible) of 34 s.; then, with a price at home of between 57 s. and 58 s., the duty would be 24 s., making up 58 s, too, so that we

1025
should barely have a protection at 58 s. with a price so high abroad as 34 s. The fact was, that these calculations as to the price of foreign corn were made altogether too high. Corn had been landed at Hull under 25 s. within the last two months. And even if foreign corn were at the absurd and impossible price of 40 s. with a 20 s. duty, it only in that case amounted to a protection to the home farmer as high as 60 s. It mattered, indeed, very little what protection the new scheme gave, for its provisions were capable of being, with the most perfect facility, evaded; but this was the fact. The plan would put an end to fair importation; for few merchants would care to give a commission upon the faith of a weekly average! and, by an exertion at any time of considerable capital, vast quantities of corn would be capable of being admitted, duty-free. He repeated, that the mere circumstance of the weekly averages made this scheme the most fatal for the country that ever had been invented. His peculiar dislike to the existing system had been that very feature in it—the averages. He had not objected to the Coin bill of 1815, because he had felt a deep confidence in the noble lord by whom they had been brought forward; and who had told him, that he considered them as forming a final settlement of the question. The project now before the House was strangely called lord Liverpool's project. If that noble lord were then present—and nothing on earth could give him more pleasure, if it were possible, than to sec him present,—he would not believe it was his project, unless the noble lord personally gave him an assurance of it. He could not believe that this measure had originated with lord Liverpool; and he did not believe it. If he wanted evidence to the contrary, it was unnecessary for him to go further than the Journals of the House. Was he mistaken if he said that, on looking to the Journals of the House for the year 1814, he found the embryo of the present plan—evil communications corrupted good manners. It was the plan of a person then entirely apart and distant from the earl of Liverpool, but who had since become connected with the noble earl—the right hon. gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade. He spoke plainly, and he would do so. He knew where the plan had come from. He had seen the project more than twelve
1026
months ago; it had then come out of Mr. Huskisson's hands; how did it now become an original idea in the mind of the earl of Liverpool? But, he did not believe the fact, that the earl of Liverpool was connected with this project. This was a new measure, and its author was, probably, not quite sure of its success. It was prudent, perhaps, in the first instance not to avow himself, when his object was to demolish a system which had lasted for ages. This, at any rate, he knew, that when he had lately heard of some person vapouring, that he had stretched forth his hand and called a new world into existence for our manufactures, the work was not then the earl of Liverpool's, but all his own. But now, under the uncertainty that attended this measure, it was thought better to palm it upon the earl of Liverpool. He repeated, that he did not believe it was that noble lord's measure. It was contrary to the principles of the school in which he was educated. That noble lord had been taught to reverence ancient institutions. He was not the individual to throw the country into confusion, for the sake of a set of wild theories. He entreated the House to reflect upon what had passed with reference to the silk trade. All the boasted measures for introducing a free trade had for their real object this attack on the Corn-laws. Did he speak unadvisedly when he said, that all these measures had ended in vapour? Three or four years ago, a bill was passed to take effect at the end of the session, by which a duty of 30 per cent ad valorem was imposed upon foreign silk goods, for the protection of the home manufacturer. This was considered a tolerable safeguard. But those who made that experiment had been deceived in the result, as would those be who were pushing forward this new plan for the ruin of the country. At the time this bill was passed, any quantity of silk goods might be insured at Paris for delivery in London at 15 per cent. The English silk manufacturer would, therefore, in effect, have been exposed to a rivalry on those terms if the bill had been suffered to go into operation. But, four or five days before the close of the session before last, an act was smuggled through that House altering the intended system altogether. By that act, the duty of 30 per cent was repealed, and instead of it, a duty imposed upon the weight of foreign manufactured silk. No longer was

1027
there any thing like free trade to be permitted. Importation was to take place only at the port of London; and, to crown all, it was to be allowed only in pieces of thirty and sixty yards in length. The moment the silk manufacturers heard of this change, they looked with gratitude to the head of the Board of Trade, and said, "We have better protection than ever;" for they well knew, that if the French silks were measured by the thumbs of Custom-house officers, they were perfectly safe. All these pretended experiments had really for their object the present attack on the landed interest. Spitalfields was as secure in its monopoly as before. He could cite other instances of the hollow policy of the ministry, but he should fatigue their lordships. It was said, that the country had one common interest in this question. He believed so sincerely; but then he thought the law should be, that the importation of all foreign corn should be prohibited, leaving it to the discretion of the privy council to open the ports when parliament was not sitting, but reserving that power at all other times to parliament itself. That, he was convinced, would be the best possible law that could be framed. He thought so, because the price of grain varied from year to year, and no permanent legislation could take place on so changeful a subject. The interest of the consumer would be better protected by the watchful eye of parliament, and the lords of his majesty's council. He could not refrain from noticing a passage in a recent speech made in another place. The speaker (Mr. Canning) had observed that, "after very nice experiments, he had given the balance of principle to trade, and the balance of price to the landed interest." Never had he heard a phrase so foolish and absurd as this! The only way in which he could interpret this passage was, that its meaning to the trading interest was, "We have beat the landed proprietors out of their strong hold—the ancient usages and laws of the country, established by their ancestors; and though we have given them on this occasion, the balance of price, yet that can be easily altered at any time." If the landed interest ceded the balance of principle, they would give up all. But it was not true that the balance of price had been cast in favour of the landed interest. For every one shilling raised in the home market,
1028
the foreign merchant gained an advance of 3s. This was 300 per cent: yet it was said, that the balance of price was cast in favour of the landed interest! He trusted that the House would be true to itself and to the country, and stand firm against an experiment which he believed, in his conscience, was calculated not only to level the landed interest of England with the dust, but in an entirely equal degree, the manufacturing classes. What could be done by the expected reduction in the price of corn? to what extent was it supposed it could be carried? Suppose, for the sake of illustration, that corn could be bought 14 s. a quarter lower than it was at present. This would be sufficient to make to the landowners all the difference between wealth and almost beggary. He presumed that much more than this could not be anticipated. Now, what would the manufacturer gain by this reduction? So far from gaining, he would lose—lose almost to his own destruction. Fourteen shillings was equal to three hundred and thirty-six half-pence. In the year there were three hundred and sixty-five days. Then, assuming that every man consumed one quarter of wheat in a year—which was perhaps about the fair calculation—his gain by this reduction, which ruined the landlord, was not quite a half-penny a day. Now, did the House believe that if a manufacturer could be asked, whether he chose rather than his men should pay a half-penny a day more for their corn, or that the home trade should be knocked up, that he would hesitate a moment in his election, and agree to pay the higher price? He would know that there could be no comparison between the present state of things, and that to which he would be reduced. With this conviction, it was his earnest hope that the sense of the House would be taken on the present proposition; and that the result would be a determination to support the ancient policy of the country in preference to entering into wild and ruinous experiments. But even if an experiment was resolved on, with reference to the bringing in of foreign corn—it was impossible that the present plan should be adopted, or that the House should act at all in the business of fixing a duty, without being informed as to the price of foreign grain. To attempt to legislate upon this subject, without regard either to the facts of what price at home would be sufficient to re-

1029
munerate the farmer, or to the terms upon which corn—the article to be taxed—could be brought from abroad, seemed to him to be little less than entire mistake and error. He should, therefore, sit down with moving, "That a select committee be appointed, to inquire into the prices at which foreign corn can be shipped from different foreign ports; distinguishing the qualities of grain, and stating the quantity which might be supposed capable of being supplied for importation into this country."
Earl Bathurstsaid, he felt himself called upon, in the first instance, to allude to an observation, which he was sure must have escaped the noble earl in the hurry of speaking, and which he would himself regret having given utterance to. The observation to which he alluded was, to the effect, that the propositions lately submitted to parliament, on the subject of the corn trade, had been forced upon his unfortunate colleague the earl of Liverpool, whilst he was lying on a bed of sickness. He was at a loss to conceive what ground the noble earl had for such an assertion. Could the noble earl—could any individual in that House—have forgotten, that before Christmas his noble colleague gave notice, that certain measures on the subject of the Corn-laws would be submitted to parliament by government immediately after the recess. Again, could it be forgotten, that his noble colleague, after the recess, gave notice that he would himself bring forward those measures in that House, although they would, at the same time, be submitted to the other House of Parliament—an unusual course of proceeding, but one which his noble colleague adopted for the express purpose of showing that he took a deep interest in the measure—that it was the result of mature reflection, and that upon it he would stake his political character. Such being the case, he was sure the noble earl would, upon, consideration, regret that he had made the assertion, that the measures in question had been forced upon his noble colleague whilst he was on a bed of sickness—an assertion for which he must be permitted to say there was not the slightest foundation. [The Earl of Lauderdale observed, across the table, that he had not stated the case so strongly as the noble earl put it]—Having said thus much, he would shortly advert to the subject before the House. The noble earl, in the course of his speech,
1030
had gone into a variety of calculations of the rate at which grain could be imported from different places, for the purpose of showing, that the protecting duty proposed in the measure lately submitted to parliament by government, was not sufficient. He did not intend to follow the noble earl through those topics, for this plain reason—that he did not mean to oppose the motion which had been submitted to their lordships. The price at which grain could be imported from Riga, Dantsic, Odessa, and other places, would be the subject of examination in the committee, which it was the object of the motion to appoint, and any discussion upon that point, at present, would be premature. He would therefore postpone any observations upon that subject until the report of the committee should be placed upon the table, and confine himself to saying a few words with respect to the general principle upon which the noble earl's reasoning on the subject of the trade in corn proceeded. The noble earl said, that the plan of graduated duties was totally new. [Lord Lauderdale said "No."] He certainly understood the noble earl to say, that the idea was new, and that in order to carry it into effect it was necessary to know the price at which grain could be brought from each of the various exporting ports. The noble earl must be perfectly aware, that in the reign of Charles the 2nd that very principle of a graduated scale of duties was established. At that time a duty was imposed upon the importation of corn up to the price of 55 s.; and when that price was attained, a scale of duties was imposed, gradually diminishing as the price increased. Upon that occasion no examination was entered into, with respect to the price at which grain could be imported from the respective exporting ports. In 1776 a graduated scale of duties was imposed on the importation of grain, and then no previous examination, such as that which the noble earl declared to be necessary, took place. Before that bill passed, there had been no previous examination by a committee, of the price of grain in different ports of the continent. The principle upon which the plan proceeded was, that 17 s. was a protecting duty when grain was at a certain price. It ought to be recollected, that the bill of 1822 was that measure with which the petitioners professed themselves completely satisfied; and the prayer of

1031
the landed interest was, that there should be no alteration of it. It was material, then, to inquire how it gave that ample protection to the farmer which afforded such unqualified satisfaction. He need hardly state, that the higher the price of wheat, the greater was the encouragement for importation, supposing the ports open; and that the design of the duty of 17 s. was to limit and control that importation. If it were efficient for this object when wheat was at 70 s., it must be still more sufficient when wheat was at 60 s. Then, what was that protection? When the price of grain was above 70 s. and under 50 s., it might be imported at a duty of 17 s. for the first three months, and whatever might be the market price during that interval. Supposing the market price during that period to be reduced to 50 s., the ports would continue open notwithstanding, and the only protection to the farmer would be, that the duty would remain 17 s. over and above that market price of 50 s. If, then, the foreign merchant, as the noble earl had asserted, could send wheat to England at 25 s. per quarter, the duty of 17 s. added would only make it 42 s. per quarter, at a time when the market price of wheat was 50 s., and the farmer was absolutely without protection, from the redundancy of foreign grain poured into the country. Yet this was the law of which the petitioners were so fond, and in which they wished to have no alteration. The noble earl had observed upon the facility with which the price of grain might be raised, so as to allow of importation. So it might be; but let the House look at the operation of such a system under the old law of 1815. Under that statute there was no graduated scale: it was an absolute prohibition under 80 s. and unrestricted importation when that price had been attained. What was the protection then? If, on the average of the last three months, the price of wheat was 6d. below 80 s. the ports continued closed, although it might happen that, for the last four weeks of that period, the quotation had been considerably above 80 s.The interest of the factors undoubtedly was to raise the average, and of the farmer to keep it down, in order that the ports might be kept closed. If, on the average of three months, the quotation was 6d. above 80 s. per quarter, the ports remained open; although the market price of grain for some time before the average
1032
was struck, might have been far below it. He would not trouble the House with any further remarks at present, and should postpone what he might have to say on the importation price of grain until the report of the committee was upon the table.
The Earl of Rosslynsaid, that persons would be induced to suppose, from the manner in which the noble earl who had just addressed their lordships had spoken of the existing corn laws, they had been framed by individuals whom he held in little consideration, whilst, in fact, they were the work of himself and of his colleagues, and all the objections which he now urged against them had formerly been disregarded when forced upon his attention. With respect to the new system proposed by ministers, he was of opinion that it would produce a ruinous effect upon agriculture.
The Earl of Lauderdaledenied, that he had asserted, that the new measure respecting the corn trade had been forced upon lord Liverpool whilst he was on a bed of sickness. All that he had done was to contrast the conduct of certain persons in one situation, and in another; and he left the House to draw what inference it pleased. That the noble earl had drawn the inference which he had stated was not his fault. If, however, he had rashly committed himself, he had nothing to do but to print his speech, according to a high example, and to leave out the objectionable passages.
Lord Redesdaleexpressed his objection to the measure now in progress for altering the existing laws.
The Earl of Roseberryapproved of the motion which had been submitted by his noble friend, although, if its object had been a more extended inquiry, he would have opposed it; because he thought the question, which was of vital importance, ought to be brought to a speedy settlement one way or another. If the new measures should be adopted, some alteration would, he thought, be necessary in the prices of barley and oats contained in the schedule on their lordships' table; otherwise the greatest distress would be occasioned in that part of the kingdom with which he was connected, and, if he was rightly informed, in Ireland also. If the prices in the schedule with respect to barley were not modified, the result would be destructive to agriculture in the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk.
Lord Baxleywas desirous of contradicting the notion, that the new measures with regard to corn had been forced upon the noble earl at the head of the Treasury. He could take upon himself to declare, that it had been the perfect intention of that noble earl to propose the measures himself, and that they were founded on his own personal observation, and drawn up with great deliberation. At the same time, their lordships must be aware, that as the members of government were in constant communication with each other, it was almost impossible to state positively with whom any particular idea originated. He thought it was premature to discuss the subject at present, as it was possible the measure might come up from the other House in a very different shape from that in which it at present stood. When, however, that measure should come properly before their lordships, he thought he should be able to satisfy them, that it was much more consonant with the wisdom and practice of their ancestors than the existing law.
The motion was then agreed to, and a committee appointed.