Lords Sitting of 22 June 1827

CORN AVERAGES BILL.
Their lordships went into a committee on this bill.
Lord Farnhamsaid, he wished the averages of towns in Ireland and Scotland to be taken, and therefore intended to

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move, in order that he might be enabled to introduce the names of those towns into the bill, that the words "England and Wales" be omitted, and "Great Britain and Ireland" inserted. This amendment was necessary to give the real price of corn as sold by the grower. It was a great object to bring the true price before the public. In Scotland, when the price of grain was 66 s., persons complained that they could never get such in the market. He thought that this was a gross deception. He considered it was a most extraordinary measure, which placed in the king's government the power of raising or depressing the averages. The present bill was, he believed, intended to be the basis of a permanent measure, and he should therefore move, that certain towns in Scotland and Ireland be inserted in the bill.
Lord Goderichdid not see any conclusive objection to the principle of including Scotland and Ireland, but he thought there was a good objection to adopting the amendment in the present bill. This was intended as a permanent bill, but it was so intended in concurrence with another measure, which had not become law; and there would be a difficulty in introducing the amendment into the bill, except in concurrence with that other measure, as the law now stands. If Scotland and Ireland were introduced, it might have the effect of lowering the averages, and might materially affect the period at which, under the present law, the importation price would be reached. He thought it was unreasonable to introduce such a measure into this bill, seeing that the Corn-laws might be revised next session. It would have an effect on the present law not contemplated by those who framed it. He could not consent to introduce Scotland and Ireland into the present bill, and should oppose the amendment. It would be impossible to know what would be the effect of such an amendment.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that unless the proposed extension took place, it would almost be better not to persevere in the bill.
Lord Goderichsaid, he had no objection to drop it.
Lord Ellenboroughwas not disposed to conclude that the admission of Ireland and Scotland would tend to raise the averages. On reference to the returns of
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corn sold in the inland towns, he found that the amount did not exceed one million nine hundred thousand quarters per annum, making the sales per week amount to about thirty-five thousand quarters. If, therefore, those towns were included where a small quantity of corn was sold at a high price, it would not raise the averages more than 2s. per quarter. He was disposed to hope that the noble viscount would allow the amendment to pass; because it was important for them this year to ascertain really what the averages were.
The Earl of Harrowbyentered into a detail of the present mode of taking the averages, and urged the necessity of their lordships' agreeing to the proposed alteration. It was impossible to take the averages to the extent proposed by the amendment, unless an account was taken of every bushel of corn that was sold.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, it was impossible that the averages, as proposed to be altered, could be made applicable to the bill now in progress elsewhere. The present Corn-law was that of 1822; the present averages were made applicable to that law, and the newly-proposed mode of taking the averages could not be made applicable to it. But, with a view to any entire permanent measure that might hereafter be introduced upon the subject of the Corn-laws, he thought it highly desirable that the fullest information should be furnished, as to the state of the b averages throughout the country. There would be less chance of fraud, by having that extensive knowledge which it was the object of the amendment to arrive at.
Lord Goderichsaid, he did not, on principle, see any great objection to extending the present mode of taking the averages to the inland towns of England and Wales, and, perhaps, subsequently to Ireland and Scotland; but he did not see the necessity of the immediate extension of it, as proposed by the amendment.
The Earl of Harrowbysuggested, whether it would be worth while to set on foot so expensive a system for so short a period, merely for the sake of experiment. The salaries of inspectors amounted to 70 l. or 80 l. per annum each, and would entail a great expense without affording any corresponding benefit.
The Earl of Belmorethought that, if the measure was extended to Ireland, it would only embarrass the system. It would be

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manifestly unjust that the price in the Irish markets should regulate the amount of duties in this country.
The Marquis of Salisburyconsidered the important point in this question was, to adopt that mode which would give the averages most correctly. He supported the amendment, and said that this was the proper time to make the experiment.
The question was then put, "that the words England and Wales do stand part of the clause." Upon which the House divided:—Content 44; Not-content 44. The chairman (the earl of Shaftesbury) gave his casting vote against the question; which was therefore negatived. The amendment was then put, that the words, "Great Britain and Ireland be inserted." Upon which another division took place: Content 37; Not-content 43; Majority against the amendment 6.
The effect of these two divisions is, therefore, to exclude every part of the united kingdom from the clause.