HL Deb 12 June 1827 vol 17 cc1234-41

whole power, although parliament might be sitting, of determining what goods should and what should not be warehoused.

The Earl of Falmouth

thought the bill, as far as regarded the averages, in the highest degree unnecessary, impolitic, and unjust.

The Earl of Darnley

thought that if the amendment of the noble duke were adopted, it would subvert the principle of the bill. At the same time, he should have no objection to apply that amendment to the corn at present in bond; and would move an amendment to that effect.

Lord Goderich,

thought the proposition of his noble friend liable to considerable objections. The effect of it would be, that all corn warehoused after the passing of the act, or entered for home consumption, would be subject to the regulations of the bill; but that the corn now in bond would be excluded, until the averages had reached 66s.

The amendment of the earl of Darnley was negatived.

Lord Calthorpe

thought that the bill, though not the best that might have been framed, would yet be productive of some good. He was decidedly opposed to the amendment of the noble duke.

The Earl of Harewood

said, he would vote for the amendment proposed by the noble duke, in the discharge of his public duty. He voted for it as a means of restraining the warehousing system, which at present he thought to be inexpedient, and because he was desirous of giving the agriculturists a greater protection than was afforded by the bill. He was anxious to provide, in adverse seasons, a compensating price for a diminished production.

The Marquis of Lansdown

said, he had heard a good deal of the necessity of altering the title of the bill, to make it better suit the real object of its framers; all he should say was, that no alteration in the title would have facilitated that great alteration in the substance, which would have justified the amendment of the noble duke. Let their lordships consider what was the title of the bill, and what the proposed amendment. The object of that amendment, as stated by the noble duke, differed most materially from the reasons assigned by several noble lords who had given it their support. As the amendment came from its noble author, it was perfectly consistent with his avowed support of the principle of the warehousing system; others followed in its advocacy, but on the ground that it checked that system; while there was still more who gave it their support because it extinguished that very warehousing system, which now, forsooth, it was deemed advisable to extinguish, after its adoption into the policy of the country for a series of thirty or forty years. This policy was, however, now for the first time discovered, by some new lights, to be inexpedient. He felt confident, that he could show, from the general spirit of every act, respecting the warehousing system, that the intention of the legislature was not to check but to extend and protect that system; which was to give the fairest scope to agricultural industry, and to the security of its reasonable profits. To depart from that policy at present, would not be to give a better protection to agriculture, but to withdraw that capital which had heretofore been employed in the warehousing system; and thus reverse, by an incidental clause in a bill, the whole current of a salutary policy. When noble lords referred to the warehousing system, they looked to it as a bugbear of alarm; and, in doing so, he thought they regarded it more from appearances suggested by their own imaginations than by the reality of the view. It was quite clear that, if they abolished the warehousing system, foreign grain would not come into the market, as it now did, to await their good time of giving them a remedy for a great evil, against which they were bound to guard. Nobody went so far as to propose the exclusion of foreign corn; on the contrary, it was universally agreed, that there was a necessity to stipulate for its admission, and the only difference was, as to the time when that necessity ought to arise. But some noble lords appeared to have entirely overlooked the advantage of lodging that foreign supply in a déepôt, which was provided in the safest possible manner, for it was totally independent of foreign politics, or indeed foreign control; and where its entrance into the market was regulated, so as to have operation exactly at the moment required. With respect to the suggested operation of the amendment upon the averages, he must deny that a single fraud could be corrected by such means. In fact, instead of removing the facility of perpetrating fraud, this clause would actually create it, by furnishing the motive and supplying the means for its commission. The amendment would supply to specu- lators in the market that strong additional motive to raise the averages, by pointing out the facility of their combining in one great body to make the price suitable to the operation which they were bent upon accomplishing, instead of being now left to act as individuals, often counteracting each other in their speculations, and for the decided advantage of the public. The proposed clause obviously pointed out the necessity of combining to bring the price up to that point, which would let in the rush of the foreign commodity, and thereby expose the home-grower to the constant alternation between very high and low prices, without his being at any time able to make a rational estimate of his profits prospectively. It was the deliberate result of his best consideration, that the proposed clause would extend all the evils which it professed to repair; and he warned their lordships, that, by adopting it they risked the advantage of closing this great question for ever, and removed from their seasonable control that stock of foreign corn which was safely standing for their benefit under the protection of British law. A noble lord had said, that it was but fair to the agriculturist to let him know what he was to expect in the shape of a remunerating price for his commodity. He wished it was possible to furnish this valuable piece of information to the agriculturist; but every reflecting man must know that they had not the power of doing so. Was it possible, from any information which either theory or practice could supply, to secure for any commodity which was subject to the variety of seasons and the influence of speculation, any thing like a fixed price? The thing was impracticable; and the only way open to them was so to regulate and modify the foreign admission, as to preserve a steady medium price, and secure the public in the event of a contingency. That object was effected, as far as wisdom and caution could accomplish it, by this bill; and the warehousing system was an essential part of the operating means of providing the benefit. A noble lord had referred to the state of Ireland as one reason why he approved of the clause; because its adoption tended to improve the quality of the food used by the Irish people. Now, he wished, as cordially as any man, to see an improvement effected in the food of the people of Ireland, and that wheat should be consumed in a greater proportion by them than potatoes. But the noble lord, in making this allusion, really presumed too much on that confusion of ideas which was sometimes attributed to the inhabitants of the sister kingdom, when he ventured to assert, that the way to induce the poor Irish to eat flour instead of potatoes, was to raise the price of it. Upon the general bearing of this measure, he felt that the best way of affording protection to the agricultural interests, and to prevent labourers from being thrown out of employment, was to prevent that violent fluctuation in the price, which was always injurious to the grower and consumer. He voted for the bill in its original state, because he conscientiously believed it to be the best adapted for the real and solid interests of the landowner.

Lord Redesdale

supported the amendment, not because it was a sufficient protection for the landed interest, but because it was the only protection which they could hope to obtain, instead of the prohibition to which they were entitled, after the legislature had gradually destroyed the value of the wool, cheese, butter, and all other agricultural produce, except grain.

A division then took place: For the duke of Wellington's amendment, Content 85; Proxies 48; Total 133.—Not Content 78; Proxies 44; Total 122. Majority 11.

Lord Goderich

said, he should waive, in the present stage of the bill, any further opposition to the other amendments.

The Earl of Lauderdale

asked, if ministers intended to acquiesce in the amendments on the third reading of the bill, or to oppose them?

Lord Goderich

said, he must have more time to consider, before he could make up his mind as to what course he would take.

Lord Clifden

said, that he was not responsible for the bill, nor one of his majesty's ministers; but, if he were one of them, he would throw away the bill at once, and leave all the popularity of such a proceeding to the noble lords opposite.

List of the Majority, and also of the Minority.

CONTENT.
Abergavenny, earl of Audley, lord
Abingdon, earl of Aylesford, lord
Ailsa (Cassilis), lord Bath and Wells, bishop
Anson, lord of
Arbuthnot, lord Bathurst, earl
Beaufort, duke of Kerr (Lothian), lord
Bedford, duke of Lauderdale, earl of
Beauchamp, earl Malmesbury, earl of
Bolton, lord Mansfield, earl of
Boston, lord Manvers, earl
Bradford, earl of Melville, viscount
Brownlow, earl of Montagu, lord
Brodrick (Midleton), Newcastle, duke of
lord Napier, lord
Bute, marquis of Northumberland, duke
Balcarras, earl of of
Camden, marquis Ponfret, earl of
Cashell, archbishop of Poulett, earl
Chichester, earl of Powis, earl
Clannrassill (Roden), Redesdale, lord
earl of Richmond, duke of
Carbery, lord Rochford, lord
Colchester, lord Rodney, lord
Dartmouth, earl of Rolle, lord
Dacre, lord Rosslyn, earl of
De Lawarr, earl Rutland, duke of
Digby, earl Salisbury, marquis of
De Clifford, lord Salisbury, bishop of
Eldon, earl of Saltoun, lord
Ellenborough, lord Sidmouth, viscount
Falmouth, earl of Shaftesbury, earl of
Farnham, lord Sheffield, lord
Feversham, lord Somers, earl
Fisherwick (Donegal), Strathalian, lord
lord Stanhope, earl
Fitzwilliam, earl Tadeaster (Thomond),
Gage, lord lord
Glasgow, earl Talbot, earl
Gordon (Aberdeen), Tankerville, earl of
lord Teynham, lord
Grey, earl Vane (Londonderry),
Grantley, lord earl
Harewood, earl of Wellington, duke of
Hill, lord Westmoreland, earl of
Howe, earl Willoughby de Broke,
Kenyon, lord lord
Killaloe, bishop of Winchilsea, earl of
PROXIES.—CONTENT.
Ailesbury, marquis of Hawke, lord
Albemarle, earl of Jersey, earl of
Bagot, lord Kellie, lord
Breadalbane, earl of Le de Spencer, lord
Buckingham, duke of Lonsdale, earl of
Belhaven, lord Longford, earl of
Beresford, lord Lorton, viscount
Carrington, lord Mount Edgecumbe,
Clancarty, earl of earl of
Carlisle, bishop of Mount Cashel, lord
Clogher, bishop of Northampton, marq. of
Churchill, lord Nelson, earl
Cardigan, earl of Northwick, lord
Dorset, duke of Plymouth, earl of
Ely, bishop of Prudhoe, lord
Forester, lord Queensberry, marq. of
Graham (Montrose), Rivers, lord
earl Romney, earl of
Gwydyr, lord Stradbroke, lord
Gray, lord Strange (Athol), earl of
Hay (Kinnoul), lord Sinclair, lord
Hertford, marquis of Sherborne, lord
Harris, lord Stowell, lord
Stamford, earl of PAIRED-OFF.
Tweeddale, marquis of Errol, earl of
Wicklow, earl of Orford, earl of
Wodehouse, lord Verulam, earl of
Warwick, earl of
NOT CONTENT.
Anglesey, marquis of Harrowby, earl of
Auckland, lord Hilsborough (Down-
Belmore, earl of shire), lord
Bexley, lord Holland, lord
Bolingbroke, lord Hood, lord
Braybrooke, lord Howard de Walden,
Bristol, marquis of lord
Bristol, bishop of King, lord
Calthorpe, lord Kingston, earl of
Carlisle, earl of Limerick, earl of
Carnarvon, earl of Lake, lord
Cawdor, lord Lansdown, marq. of
Chancellor, the lord Leinster, duke of
Chester, bishop of Llandaff, bishop of
Clifton (Darnley), lord London, bishop of
Clinton, lord Lucan, lord
Colville, lord Lynedoch, lord
Cowper, earl Macclesfield, earl of
Cornwallis, earl Mendip (Clifden), lord
Charlemont, earl of Monteagle (Sligo), lord
Darlington, earl of Montford, lord
Dawnay (Downe),lord Morley, earl of
De Dunstanville, lord Ormonde, marquis of
Delamere, lord Plunkett, lord
Devonshire, duke of Portland, duke of
Ducie, lord Rosebery, earl of
Dudley, viscount St. David's, bishop of
Dundas, lord St. Vincent, lord
Dynevor, lord Saltersford (Courtown)
Essex, earl of lord
Farnborough, lord Say and Sele, lord
Ferrers, earl Seaford, lord
Fitzgibbon(Clare), lord Somerhill (Clanri-
Gower, earl carde), lord
Glocester, duke of Spencer, earl
Glocester, bishop of Suffolk, earl of
Goderich, lord Sussex, duke of
Gosford, lord Sydney, viscount
Grantham, lord Thanet, earl of
Grosvenor, earl Wharncliffe, lord
Hardwicke, earl of York, archbishop of
PROXIES.—NOT CONTENT.
Bangor, bishop of Grafton, duke of
Buckinghamshire, earl Grenville, lord
of Granville, lord
Byron, lord Hereford, vise.
Chichester, bishop of Howard of Effingham,
Crewe, lord lord
Clarence, duke of Home, lord
Carrick, earl of Lichfield, bishop of
Carysfort, earl of Leeds, duke of
Conyngham, marq. of Lincoln, bishop of
Caledon, earl of Minto, lord
Duncan, lord Maryborough, lord
Derby, earl of Marlborough, duke of
Denbigh, earl of Norwich, bishop of
Erskine, lord Northland, lord
Foley, lord Ponsonby (Besbo-
Fortescue, earl rough), lord
Peterborough, bishop St. German's, earl of
of Suffield, lord
Sondes, lord Waldegrave, earl
Scarborough, earl of Winchester, marq. of
Selsey, lord Wilton, earl of
Somerset, duke of PAIRED-OFF.
Stuart, of Castle Stuart, lord Alvanley, lord
Stafford, margins of Clarendon, earl of
St. Alban's, duke of Fife, earl of