Lords Sitting of 22 February 1827

CORN LAWS.
Earl Bathurstrose, and desired, that the order for summoning their lordships on Monday, which had been made on the motion of the earl of Liverpool, should be read. His lordship then said, that, although it was necessary, from the nature of the measure which would be proposed, that the proceedings relative to the Corn-laws should begin in another place, yet his noble friend had given notice, in consideration of the great importance of the question, and what he considered due to his own high station, that he should take an early opportunity of explaining in detail, the nature of the resolutions which were to be submitted to the other House; and he had fixed Monday for that purpose. His noble friend had hoped that he might be able, by his explanations, to arrest that conflict be-

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tween the great interests of the state which had been most justifiably augmented; and, undoubtedly, there was no man whose character and disposition rendered him better able to interfere with effect than his noble friend. Unfortunately, he was now prevented from doing as he had proposed by his sudden illness, which made it impossible for him to give their lordships the explanations he had intended. He would, therefore, move that the order for their lordships to be summoned on Monday be discharged. Before he sat down, he thought it proper to state, that certain resolutions on the subject of the Corn-laws would be moved in the other House on Monday, which would make the substance of the measures to be proposed known to their lordships, and give them an opportunity of judging whether any further inquiry was necessary. He felt it his duty, however, to add, that if any of their lordships should make a motion for a general inquiry, to such an inquiry there were so many real objections, and it would open such a wide field for delay, that he should be obliged to oppose it. To a limited inquiry, similar objections could not be made; and such an inquiry would, probably, involve two different questions. The first was, into the rate at which the home-grower could bring his produce to market; and the second into the rate at which the importer could bring foreign corn into our markets. If any inquiry were to be made as to the first question, their lordships would be doing what had already been done to a great extent. Parliamentary committees had carefully inquired into this subject; and, after all that had been done, any of their lordships acquainted with the subject would form as correct an opinion of the sum at which the home-grower could bring his corn to market, as any of the witnesses who would be examined. As to the second part of the inquiry, his majesty's government had thought that the information was deficient, and they had sent a gentleman abroad to collect information. The report, made by that gentleman was before the Mouse, and if any of their lordships should think fit to propose further inquiries into this part of the subject, he should be ready to agree to any reasonable proposition.
The Earl of Lauderdaledid not rise to make any objection to the course just proposed by the noble, earl. He could not,
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however, help expressing his sincere regret on account of the illness of the noble earl whose motion it was proposed to discharge. As a public man, he was looked up to by the people of England, and was well qualified to be the mediator between those conflicting interests to which the noble earl had just alluded; for no man's character stood higher. As a peer, there never was a fairer debater than the noble earl, whose absence their lordships all deplored. But he hoped and believed that the friends of the noble earl would not be deprived of the pleasure of his society, whatever might be the case with that House. With regard to bringing forward the question of the Corn-laws at any future period, whether he should think proper to submit any resolutions to the House, or whether he should think proper to propose such an inquiry as that mentioned by the noble earl, in whatever manner he might trouble their lordships, sufficient time must be taken for consideration; for the question was of too much importance to be speedily decided.
Lord Kingobserved, that the noble earl opposite had been pleased to allude to the conflict of interests which he said had been most unjustifiably augmented; but, if it had been augmented, it had been done by the most unjustifiable delays to which this question had been subjected. It was to be brought forward one session; it was then postponed to the next. It was to come on this year; it was then put off to another, and then came the dissolution of parliament. After what had been stated by the noble earl, he looked on the question with despondency, and almost despair, particularly as they were deprived of the assistance of that noble lord, whom he regarded as the most sincere in wishing to get rid of the Corn-laws. He had hoped, that before this time their lordships would have seen the necessity of agreeing to such a measure as would content the people. He was afraid that the plan would only be an alteration, and scarcely an improvement. He had now to present a petition from Blackburn. It came from a place at which the people were suffering the deepest distress. Their sufferings were, indeed, so great, that they were distinguished in the midst of general distress. He should not be dealing fairly by their lordships if he did not state, that the petition contained many hard things against parliament, and particularly against that

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House. His lordship moved, that the petition be read. After it had been read,
Earl Stanhopesaid, that, although he was never disposed unnecessarily to reject the petitions of the people, and wished to open the door of parliament to them as widely as possible, yet he held it to be inconsistent with the duty which their lordships owed to themselves, to receive any petitions which, like the one then offered to their lordships, was couched in the most offensive language, and contained the most false statements. The Petitioners said, "that the legislature had, for their own aggrandisement, ruined and degraded the working classes." He knew not that the legislature had ever done so; but he would say, that if they were to adopt any measure which went to alter the Corn-laws, without a full inquiry, not into a part of the question, but into the whole of it—any measure which went to lessen the supply of food—then he would say that their lordships were doing what might ruin not only the working classes, but all classes of the empire. He put it to their lordships, whether they would receive the petition, and allow themselves to be insulted.
Lord Kingwas indifferent whether their lordships received the petition or not. It had been read; but he had told their lordships before it was read, that it came from one of the most suffering parts of this deeply-suffering country; and it was for their lordships to decide, whether they would or not make some allowance for the hasty expressions of people in such a state.
Earl Stanhopeadmitted the distress of the petitioners, but contended, that it did not arise from measures adopted by parliament. Their lordships could not give these people higher wages, nor find them additional employment. He must, once for all, enter his protest against the opinion expressed in that and other petitions, that the Corn-laws had anything to do with low wages. The assertions of the petitioners were contradicted by facts. Not longer ago than last session, a measure was adopted, having for its object to lower the price of corn.
The Earl of Limerickdeprecated the inflammatory language which had been frequently used on this subject, which had, he thought, unjustifiably augmented the conflict between the opposite interests of the country. He thought that
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the noble baron, by having had the petition read, and informed their lordships, that it contained certain expressions against themselves, identified himself with the petition.
The petition was rejected.
Lord Kingthen presented, what he called, a quiet, meek, humble, petition, not containing one word which could offend their lordships. It was from the Incorporated Trades of Saint Andrews. In presenting it, he wished to tell the noble lord who spoke last, that he meant to use the same language he always had used, until their lordships did what was right and just.
The Marquis of Lansdownpresented a petition from the town of Liverpool. He thought it due to the petitioners, as well as to their lordships, to have the petition read. He begged leave, at the same time, to express his satisfaction at learning, by what fell from the noble Secretary of State, that the great misfortune which had befallen his noble friend at the head of the government — a misfortune which deeply affected the public, and for which no man felt more than himself—would not occasion the postponement of the great public question beyond Monday next. He thought it most important that the question should be decided as soon as possible; because, while it was unsettled, no contracts could be entered into between landlords and tenants.
Lord Redesdalesaid, that a great mistake pervaded all the reasoning of this and of most of the petitions on this subject. The petitioners all seemed to think that the manufacture of other commodities and of corn were precisely the same; whereas they depended on very different principles. The manufacture of other commodities depended altogether on man. The growth of corn depended on the seasons. In one season there was an abundant crop, in another a scarcity; while the expense of cultivation was the same in both years. It was impossible that the corn could be sold for the same price in both years. This was a decree of Heaven, and could not be altered. Corn could not be sold at the same price in a number of successive years; if the prayers of the petitioners were complied with, and their complaints redressed, it would desolate the country. The Corn-laws of the reign of Charles 2nd were founded on the peculiar principle which distinguished the produc-

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tions of the agriculturist. Another mistake committed by the petitioners was, in supposing' that the cultivation of inferior soils was injurious to the country; which was not the case. If they remained uncultivated, not one half of our present population could be subsisted. The petitioners also forgot, that by our present modes of cultivation, corn and cattle went together. They supposed that, if we did not grow so much corn, we should have more cattle; but this was founded in a mistaken notion of our agriculture. By our present modes of cultivation, we raised five or six times as much corn as we did three or four centuries ago. It was supposed, too, that if our inferior lands were not cultivated, they would become good grass lands; but, if they were so, it was only in consequence of their having been cultivated. By inclosing lands and cultivating them, they were made good grass lands; and, in consequence of our improved modes of cultivation, and the increased capital invested in agriculture, we now grew three times as much food as we did at the time of the restoration of king Charles 2nd, and had probably three times as many people. Corn, also, was now cheaper than it was at that time—at least in comparison with the commodities exchanged for it; and this, he contended, was also the consequence of our improved cultivation. To illustrate the difference between the manufacture of corn and other commodities not subject to the variations of the seasons, he would refer to our cotton manufacture. It was said to amount to the annual value of thirty millions sterling. Let their lordships suppose, that just as it was ready for market, it was invaded by an army of moths, as the farmers produce sometimes was by an army of caterpillars —destroying one-half of the cotton; and that then the cotton manufacturer was required to sell his goods for fifteen millions: supposing the cost of producing them twenty-four millions, instead of gaining six millions, he would lose nine. If the: farmer were always to sell his produce at the same price, he would be ruined, and the country would be ruined also; for, if the agriculturists were ruined, what would become of the rest of the people? Our old Corn-laws were founded on a correct view of the principles of political economy —not, however, of modern political economy. He did not allude to Dr. Adam Smith, who knew nothing of that benevo-
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lent wish to benefit the whole human race which distinguished our modern economists. He did not lose sight of the different interests of different nations. As long as the human race existed, nations would rise up against nations, and there would be strife on the earth. There never could be that great republic of mankind which these writers talked of. It was incumbent on their lordships, therefore, to provide for the cultivation of their own lands, and not look for a supply of food from other countries. The question of the Corn-laws was one which could not be decided by theory. The decision of their lordships must be the result of long and patient inquiries, embracing every part of this complicated question. He could not, therefore, agree with the noble Secretary of State in his views, as to an inquiry into one single and minor topic. He hoped their lordships would not consider the question in one point of view only, and with reference to one interest, but would include in their inquiries all the points of view possible, and all the interests of the country; above all, he hoped they would never lose sight of that great interest which supplied the people with food. There was one part of the petition which their lordships had just rejected, which aimed directly at the existence of the British constitution. What was it that had preserved the constitution of this country so long? What! but that it was founded on the property of the country. No government could exist which was not founded on property; and he would have their lordships take care how they adopted any measure which reduced the landed interest still lower. If this interest were further beat down than it was at present, it would be reduced to nothing, and the constitution would be destroyed. He hoped, before any measure was adopted by their lordships, that they would go into a much more extensive inquiry than the one recommended by the noble Secretary of State.
Ordered to lie on the table.