Lords Sitting of 14 February 1827

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
The Marquis of Lansdown, on rising to present the petitions of which he had on a former evening given notice, said, he had thought it right, from the respect due to their lordships, as well as to the petitioners, to give notice of his intention to present them that day; but he did not, therefore, mean to go into any discussion of the general question relative to the Catholics. He felt it, however, to be his duty towards the petitioners to state, with respect to the first petition—similar petitions to which had frequently been under their lordships' consideration, and which was the petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland—as well as with respect to the second petition, which was then, for the first time, presented to their lordships, and was from the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland—that he had read them both very carefully, and he could assure their lordships that there was not one expression in them disrespectful to their lordships; he would say, not only not one disrespectful expression, but not one expression which any noble lord, the most hostile to the petitioners' claims, could construe into disrespect to their lordships. He was sure their lordships would never find it disrespectful in any class of his majesty's subjects, to come forward, and state explicitly and plainly the claims they might have, on account of services already rendered, or of services they were disposed

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to render—claims which, he thought, were not only the privileges of every subject of this realm, but which it was their duty to make—that, for these services, they might receive that proper reward, which was to be found in a full participation in all the rights and privileges enjoyed under the constitution of this country. The petitioners first stated plainly and clearly, the privations to which they were exposed by the law; after which, they proceeded to point out the indirect privations which the privations imposed by the laws brought on them, and to which the laws did not intend to subject them. They then proceeded to state that these privations, existing only for one class of the king's subjects, exposed them to be marked by their fellow-subjects, and thereby placed a bar between them which ought not to exist. Having stated thus much, he would not enter further into the merits of the question; but he could not avoid calling the attention of their lordships to two circumstances connected with the petitioners. He meant their numbers and their property. Their numbers must have been known to their lordships on former occasions; and though he would not take on himself to assert that they were now much more numerous, yet he was sure, if their numbers had not increased, they had not diminished. But, if they had riot increased in numbers, he had no difficulty in stating, that, in respect to property, there had been a very material alteration since they first petitioned their lordships. They had acquired much more wealth, and possessed now much more property than formerly. Nobody knew better than he did, the fallacy of all statistical statements, which were not verified by official documents; but he could state—and he believed every noble lord who knew any thing of Ireland would confirm the statement—that the property of the Catholics, both moveable and immoveable, was increasing in almost every part of Ireland. It was at present greater than at any former period, and was rapidly increasing. With that property their power had increased, both directly, and from that influence which property always gave. The power thus acquired could not be allowed to occupy a neutral space in the political course of the country. If properly brought into harmony with the settled current of our social system, we should derive from it, inevitably, all that increase of national power and of wealth
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which it was calculated to give; and if not, instead of finding it a source of happiness, union, and strength, it would bring on mischief and destruction.—He had mentioned these changes, as he thought them worthy of their lordships' consideration, when the question should come before them at a future time. Thus much he had on this occasion thought it right to say; because, in presenting the petitions with which he was intrusted, he wished to clear himself with respect to his duty towards the petitioners, and because he also wished, when he should hereafter come to submit a substantive proposition, founded on those petitions, to their lordships, of which ho. should that day give notice, he might be enabled to argue the question not as the representative, which he was not, of any particular body of men, but on the grounds of public and national interests; namely, in connexion with Protestant interests, a Protestant church establishment, and a Protestant throne. He should then submit to their lordships those considerations which, in reference to all these subjects, induced him to think, that they ought to adopt the resolution which he intended to propose, and the effect of which would be to admit Roman Catholics to a full participation in all the blessings of the constitution. If their lordships should think fit to express their dissent from the course which he would propose, he hoped that those who might differ from him would as plainly and explicitly as he should do, point on what course they meant to pursue for the political improvement of Ireland; because, until he heard it declared, he never could believe that any one person in that. House would say, that the political condition of Ireland ought to remain as it now was.—On the motion of the noble marquis, the petition was read, and laid on the table. He next presented a petition from the Roman Catholic bishops of Ireland. If their petition was read, their lordships would, he said, perceive that the motives of those respectable persons in now coming forward for the first time, was simply that they might be enabled to state to their lordships the opinions they entertained with respect to certain controverted points, and to repeat their assurance of their zealous disposition to contribute to the peace of the country. Nobody who knew that, country but would admit, that without the unwearied and unremitting endeavours of the Catholic clergy to preserve the peace

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of the community, tranquillity could not at any time exist.
On the petition being read, it was withdrawn, on account of an informality; the signatures being on a detached sheet of paper.
The Marquis of Lansdownthen gave notice, that on the 8th of March, he would submit to their lordships a proposition founded on the petitions he had presented. It was probable that before that day the subject would be discussed in another place. But, whatever might be the result of the discussion which might take place elsewhere, he would move the resolution of which he had given notice. He was the more anxious so to do, because the responsibility of not bringing the question forward during the last session", attached more to himself than to any other individual.
The Earl of Winchelsearose, not to reply to the arguments of the noble marquis, but for the purpose of expressing his own sentiments. He sincerely trusted that, before their lordships admitted the Roman Catholics to a full participation of civil rights, and thereby opened to them a road to high situations of political trust—before their lordships attempted to repeal the test act, and to separate the church from the state, they would carefully consider the grounds on which, by the wisdom of their ancestors, such disabilities had been imposed. He felt no small gratification, that when the question of the Catholic claims should again be brought forward, it would appear in a very striking and new point of view, with respect to the reformation which had been begun in Ireland, and which he trusted would proceed. He sincerely hoped that their lordships would direct their attention to the political power which the Roman Catholic priests had lately exorcised over their flocks—a power which had created a just alarm. He also sincerely trusted, that their lordships would never abandon that constitution under which that House and all the institutions of the country existed, from any subserviency to public clamour, or any views of political expediency.
Lord Clifdancould not say how the reformation to which the noble lord had alluded might be going on; but he sincerely hoped, that all the Catholics might become Protestants, and he thought that the most likely menus of accomplishing that object was to do away with those
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exclusive laws which oppressed them. The noble lord had talked about danger to the constitution. He could not see that any danger would arise if three or four members more should take their seats in that House, or if there should be thirty or forty Catholics in the other House of parliament. With respect to reformation, that could only be expected, from ridding the Statute-book of those exclusive laws. If he had been born a Catholic, and had afterwards become a Protestant, as he sincerely was, he should have taken the liturgy of the church of England in his hands, and gone into his apartment to pray twice a-day, but taking good care to lock the door. He would have used such secrecy, not because he was a hypocrite, but because he could not have borne to be separated from his own people, or to have it said of him, that he turned from his religion from motives of interest. This was what would have passed in his mind upon the subject of conversion; and he had no doubt it was what had passed through the minds of many others. Therefore, without the abolition of the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured, no reformation could take place. The noble earl congratulated himself on that reformation, and seemed to have no doubt of its continuance; but "Rusticus expectat, dum defluat amnis." He wished to point out, too, what he had on a former occasion alluded to; namely, the danger which would attend this country in the event of a war with France; and we were as near a war as possible. Had Villèlle been turned out of the ministry, the king of France, who was said to be a poor bigot, though he knew nothing about him, would have been in the hands of the apostolicals, who would have made every effort to oppose the views of England; and if we had declared war against France and Spain, the question of the right of search would have arisen, which would have involved us in a war with America. He begged noble lords to consider the situation in which this country would have been placed, with France, Spain, America, and Ireland too, at war with us.