Lords Sitting of 8 February 1827

CORN LAWS.
The Earl of Liverpoolgave notice, that he would, if nothing in the interim should happen to make it necessary to put off the motion to a further day, on Monday se'nnight, bring under the consideration of their lordships the subject of the Corn-laws.
The Earl of Lauderdalewished to know the nature of the proposition intended to be brought forward, and he would tell the noble earl his reason for so wishing. When the people of this country were about to express their opinion on the subject of any alteration in the Corn-laws, it was recommended to them, by the friends of ministers, to refrain from any expression of disapprobation until such time as the proposition which ministers intended to submit to parliament should be made known. Now, he thought that, after the propositions were made, not only the two Houses, but the public ought to have time to examine, and express their opinion upon them. If they had not time for this, they would be entrapped into a measure which, he would say, was one of the most important, both politically and economically, ever agitated.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he felt the importance of the subject as much as the noble earl did, and should never think of

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calling upon parliament for any opinion upon it on the day on which he should bring forward his proposition.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he wished that the country should have sufficient time to express its opinion; The noble lord must see that what he had stated did not meet his Objection, because he had prefaced his observations by saying, that the adherents of ministers had recommended that no expression of public feeling should take place, and told the people to wait until ministers should bring forward their proposition, and then there would be time enough to give their opinion. This proceeding put him in mind of an anecdote told by his father-in-law. As he was stepping into his carriage, his coachman came up to him, and said, "As I know, Sir, that you like to be consulted, I think it right to inform you that I was married yesterday." Now, the two Houses of parliament were to give their decision on the noble lord's proposition first, and the country was to be consulted on the subject afterwards. What he wished distinctly to know was, whether the noble earl intended to allow sufficient time for the public at large to express an opinion.
The Earl of Liverpoolreally did not know what the noble lord's calculation of sufficient time might be. All he could say was, that after he had submitted his proposition to their lordships, he should allow a reasonable time to intervene before he called upon them for their decision upon it.

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
Viscount Clifden, in rising to present the first one of a great many petitions which he had to present from the Catholics of Ireland, felt himself bound to address a few observations to their lordships. He begged in particular to call their lordships' attention to the great alteration which had taken place in the circumstances of the Catholics within these two years. Since the question was formerly before their lordships, they had roused themselves, and become sensible of their strength. In one week, the Catholics of Waterford had defeated and disgraced the most opulent Protestant family in all Ireland. There were two other families more opulent; but they did not reside in Ireland, and were rather English than Irish. The members of this family were gentlemen of unblemished character, but distinguished
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by their bitter hostility to the just claims of their Catholic fellow subjects, and for that hostility alone they were defeated in one week on their own ground. In Louth, the Catholics had defeated the oldest politician in Ireland. In the counties of Dublin and Westmeath, they had also been victorious; and in Armagh, which was the very cradle of Orangeism, they had completely triumphed. Mr. Brown-low—who had seen his error, and after voting against the Catholics, now voted for them—was opposed by the whole force of the Orange party—was carried triumphantly through by the Catholic freeholders. It was the fashion to abuse the Catholic priests for their interference; but were not the clergy of the Established Church as bad? He was sorry the bishops' bench was so empty, or he would say more on this subject. Did not our parsons brawl without mercy? The Catholic priests lived with their flock; they attended to their wants, administered to them in sickness, and consoled them on their death bed. The noble Viscount then read an election address, calling on the Catholics not to vote for any man who supported the Test; as by that means they virtually voted against themselves, and admitted that their own religion was idolatrous. Two years ago his majesty had been advised to recommend parliament to put down the Catholic association, and a law had been made for that purpose. But, had they succeeded? He would answer, No. The thing was impossible. The Association were the representatives of opinions, and it was impossible to put down opinions. If the Irish amounted to five millions, they constituted one fourth of our whole population: if they amounted to seven millions, they were one third; and it was impossible to change or subdue, the opinions of so large a body of men. The Irish House of Commons, in 1793, when ministers were frightened out of their senses, which some of them seemed not yet to have recovered, resolved to put an end to the penal code; they resolved, also, to put an end to the Catholics. They then passed the famous Convocation act, which only allowed the two Houses to meet by a special clause. But, had this put down the Catholics? No. They had gone on increasing—had acquired power and talents—and were now conscious of their strength. As to the complaints against the Catholic priests, he could not

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see why they should not interfere at elections, when our own clergy disgraced themselves by raising the cry of "No Popery." That cry had, however, lost its power. The people of this country had more vital interests to attend to. They were groaning, in the twelfth year of peace, under a debt of 800,000,000 l., and an expenditure of 50,000,000 l. He trusted to God that the Catholic question would come up again this session from the Commons. If their lordships persisted in withholding their concurrence, they would render themselves the laughing-stock of the country. Even the Holy Alliance had not ventured to embark upon religious questions. There were in Europe one hundred millions of people, free from such exclusive laws. It should be recollected, too, that a communication with Ireland by the means of steam was now easy; and that France looked with delight upon the spirit of disunion that prevailed in that country. Three hundred and eighty men from Bedlam could not behave worse than their lordships would do, if they persisted in refusing the Catholic claims. He would ask, if it was likely there ever would be an end to the discussion of the question, but by granting the Catholics their rights. He was far on his journey to the other world; but woe to those who came after him, if this question should be left undecided.
Ordered to lie on the table.