Lord Kingsaid, he had some more petitions to present on a subject on which some persons thought that the less was said the better, but on which, in his opinion, the more was said the better. They were given to understand that no alteration was to take place in the Corn-laws till after the holidays, but they were told, at the same time, that some alteration was decided upon, though God only knew what it was to be. It appeared that his majesty's ministers had a good deal of difficulty in settling with their friends on the subject, and no small share in settling with their colleagues. One fact seemed certain; namely, that in whatever should be done, nothing but the minimum of improvement was likely to be adopted. Various reports were in circulation, some of which had reached his ears. One report was, that when the price of corn was at 55s. a duty of 17s. was to be imposed. For his own part, he would much rather it be left at the mercy of ministers, acting on their own responsibility, than at the mercy of so merciless a law as that. He believed there was a malignant party in the cabinet, who were hostile to all improvement, and at variance with their own col- 165 leagues, whose schemes of political economy they hoped would not take effect. It was influenced by a good and an evil principle; but he feared that the evil principle would predominate. The petition which he should now present had been agreed to at a public meeting of the working classes, at Manchester. It stated, that in the twelfth year of peace the greatest misery and distress prevailed, and that the cruel prohibition against the importation of foreign corn deprived the manufacturing classes of a market for the produce of their industry, while it increased the price of bread, only to keep up a standing army, and enable persons to escape from burthens, in order that, they might be imposed on others. In conclusion, the petition prayed for the total abolition of the Corn-laws.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that before he adverted to what had fallen from the noble lord, he wished to offer a few words respecting what had passed in the House yesterday. He had come down to the House on several occasions since the commencement of the session, but found that their lordships had adjourned before five o'clock. Now he did not object to this, for he thought that public business ought to commence at four instead of five o'clock. With respect to the subject matter of the petition, he did not mean to be, on the present occasion, drawn into a discussion relative to the Corn-laws, by any thing that had been said by the noble lord. He could assure the noble lord, however, that he was greatly mistaken in supposing that his majesty's government had not come to a decision on this subject. In that respect there was nothing whatever to prevent him from bringing forward the question at present, but he felt that he should not be dealing fairly with its merits, or with the feeling of the country in doing so, when a full attendance was not to be expected. The object for which parliament had assembled at so early a period, was only to confirm those measures which his majesty's ministers had adopted in September, on their own responsibility, and to grant them the necessary indemnity. He would not be led into any explanation of the measure which it was intended, in due time, to submit to their lordships; feeling, as he did, that any premature statement might cause a great deal of mischief, by giving rise to much misapprehension. He pledged himself, however, to call their lordships' attention to the 166 subject at the earliest possible period after the recess; and, though the measure would naturally originate elsewhere, yet he would not wait for that event to put their lordships in possession of the sentiments of his majesty's government upon a question so very important to the interests of the country.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he did not at all object to the line which the noble earl had prescribed to himself, nor did he mean to urge any proposition against it, though he wished that the noble earl had found it convenient to state the nature of the measure. He trusted, however, that when it was brought forward, sufficient time would be allowed the country to consider its merits. The agriculturists, in their numerous petitions, expressed their sentiments on what they thought fitting for themselves, and in consonance with the interests of the community at large. In petitions respecting the Corn-laws, they did not wish to see the topics of parliamentary reform, or of church property introduced.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he was so anxious that a speedy decision should be come to on this question, that he would not, as he had already stated, wait till a measure should be brought forward elsewhere. He was most desirous to take the first convenient opportunity of stating to their lordships the views which his majesty's ministers entertained with regard to it. One general feeling pervaded this country on the subject, and when the question was once mooted, it was of the utmost importance that the decision should not be long delayed. It was very natural that the decision, if kept in suspense, must greatly operate on individual interests. There was nothing which he more desired, than that when the question should be brought forward, a due regard should be had to all the great interests of the country.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, it had been assumed that an alteration in the Corn-laws was necessary, but, in his opinion, no case was made out to establish the necessity.
§ Lord Clifdenwished that the corn question could have now been gone into. The noble earl had stated many reasons for not bringing the subject forward immediately; but delay was a great evil, for until this question should be settled, no man in the country could tell what his situation was. At the same time, he admitted the 167 question to be one of great difficulty, and one which required the fullest consideration He was ready to confess that the present was not a very convenient time for the discussion; but if it had been practicable, the subject ought to have been gone into now. When, however, it should be brought forward, he trusted that the averages would be got rid of, for they were considered a source of great fraud, and that they were such, he sincerely believed. He would, therefore, be glad to hear that the noble earl was fully prepared to put an end to them, whatever might, in other respects, be the nature of the measure brought forward.
Lord Carberyapproved of the arrangement proposed by the noble earl at the head of the Treasury. He was confident that when the subject came to be discussed, the agricultural interest would be found to wish well to every other interest in the country. The manufacturers believed that their present distress was owing to the high price of corn, but in that he was convinced they were mistaken. The present price of bread was not much beyond what it ought to be.
The Earl of Liverpoolwished to make a single observation in reply to what had fallen from the noble lord who spoke last but one. He was convinced that a little reflection would satisfy the noble lord, that there would be much difficulty and inconvenience in bringing forward a measure of this kind at the present moment. The noble lord must be aware of the time it would take to carry such a measure through both houses of parliament, and how impracticable it would be to accomplish that object before the recess. But there was another consideration: nothing was or could be so inconvenient as bringing the measure forward at this season of the year, or at any time, unless their lordships were sure that they could go quite through with it. Considering the magnitude of the question, their lordships must be convinced that it would be impossible to come to a decision before the recess. At the same time, he assured their lordships that no person was more deeply impressed than he was with the necessity of bringing the question forward at the earliest possible period.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had been intrusted with some petitions which he would have that night brought down with him, had he been aware that any 168 discussion was to arise on the Corn-laws. He entirely concurred in the course which his majesty's government intended to pursue with regard to the bringing forward this question; and he hoped the noble earl would not fail to bring the subject under the consideration of the House at the earliest period possible. A speedy decision was of great importance, because the uncertainty which existed respecting this question was very injurious to the general interests, by greatly affecting the markets. At the same time, he did not conceive that it was practicable, at this period of the session, to carry the measure through both Houses. He hoped, however, that the delay would be attended with this good effect—that the time afforded for consideration would enable parliament to adopt a fixed and permanent regulation. For, until not only that House, but the public at large, were satisfied that any arrangement come to was permanent, the mischief which would flow from the discussion of the subject would be interminable. With regard to price, it was not so much lowness of price that was injurious to agriculturists, as the circumstance of their having been led by parliament to expect high prices. They had made all their arrangements with a view to such prices. In consequence of this state of things, any great alteration in the present system of the Corn-laws must necessarily be attended with a corresponding loss to them. But, nevertheless, that a very considerable change must take place, was an opinion which he had long entertained and frequently expressed. At the same time, from the situation in which the country was placed, and the commercial regulations which had been adopted, it would be impossible to regard the intended measure as a simple question affecting the agricultural interest only. It was a mistaken view of the subject to suppose that different parts of the community had distinct interests on this occasion. If the manufacturers were to obtain corn at so cheap a rate as to throw the poorer lands which now produced it entirely out of cultivation, the injurious effects would fall at last upon themselves. On the other hand, if the agricultural interest obtained too high a price for their corn, that would ultimately have the effect in another way which they so much dreaded, of driving the manufacturer out of the country. In fact, if a disposition 169 should be shown by one part of the public to throw the burthen off themselves on to another, such an attempt would be impossible, for the burthen, such as it was, must be borne by all. What was necessary to be done was, to discover how an adjustment could best be made by which food could be obtained sufficiently cheap for the manufacturer, and at the same time at such a price as would afford due encouragement to the agriculturist—not, however, such a price as would cause the country to be entirely supplied with home-raised corn, for such a state of things would be one of the greatest misfortunes that could befal the agriculturists. The great object which ought to be kept in view was, to form an equitable adjustment; and, if parliament devoted due consideration to the subject, he was sanguine enough to hope that this object might be accomplished, and a permanent arrangement adopted which would set the question at rest. With respect to what his noble friend had said upon the subject of averages, he was inclined to concur. The system of averages was bad, and it would be well if they could be dispensed with; but if they could not be got rid of altogether, some mode might be fallen upon to regulate them, and place them on a better scale. Having said thus much, he must conclude by again stating, that he concurred in the course proposed to be taken by his majesty's ministers.
The Earl of Lauderdaleagreed with his noble friend, in opinion, as to the advantage of a permanent arrangement; but he confessed that his hopes of accomplishing that object were not very sanguine. The present system, when first adopted, was intended to be a permanent one. He had joined his efforts with the noble earl opposite in 1815, in preparing those regulations which were to form a permanent system for a time of peace; and the noble earl then stated, that the system was to be such. He did not concur in those regulations with the view of obtaining high prices. On the contrary, he believed, in his conscience, that if the regulations had been acted on, they would have caused low prices, and, he was still of opinion, that the system was calculated to have that effect. His noble friend, in the observations he had just made, had taken into consideration the interests of the manufacturer on the one hand, and of the land-owner on the other; thus setting 170 the two interests in array, the one Against the other, and making it the business of parliament to arbitrate between them. When, however, the question came to be discussed, he should show that there was but one common interest involved in this question, which did not consist in creating high prices, but in encouraging the agriculture of the country. Their lordships must not take a narrow view of the question, but decide upon broad and statesman-like principles. He had said thus much to guard himself against being supposed to concur in measures which might be proposed for altering the present system.
The Marquis of Lansdownwas sure his noble friend had misunderstood him, when he supposed that he had spoken of any difference or collision of interests between the commercial and agricultural classes. He certainly had alluded to the existence of a hostile feeling which prevailed; but the whole tenor of what he had said went to show that no such feeling ought to exist, and that if such a feeling were acted upon, it would be ruinous to both. In this question, there was, in fact, only one interest to be considered, namely, that of the country at large. In that interest, the manufacturer and the agriculturist were united; the landed interest giving activity to commerce by consuming manufactures, and the manufacturer in return consuming the produce of the agriculturist. In expressing this opinion, he was sure their lordships would not understand him to be representing those interests in a state of hostility. The more the question was investigated, the more it would appear that, strictly speaking, there was but one interest to be consulted.
Lord Kingfully agreed in opinion with, the noble marquis, that there was but one interest on this question, but that different views were taken of that interest. One party took a large view; another a narrow and confined one. Some wished for high prices immediately, others wished for those prices which would be best upon the long run. Now, he was one of those who thought that the best prices on the long run were low prices—very near those of the continent of Europe. If prices here were much above those of the continent, nothing could prevent manufacturers from emigrating. If, as the noble earl near him had said, it was the object of 171 the agriculturists, by the regulations of the present system, to give the country low prices, their mode of doing it was surely very extraordinary. In order to make low prices, they say, let us have a monopoly; but I should rather say, let us have competition. On the contrary, if I wanted high prices, I should like their call for monopoly.
§ Ordered to lie on the table.