Lords Sitting of 21 March 1826

IRISH CHARTER SCHOOLS.
The Bishop of Ferns The Bishop of Ferns moved, that there be laid before the House Copies of all Letters received from Charter-schools of Ireland by the Secretary of the Incorporated Society of Dublin, and transmitted by him to the Commissioners of Education, since the year 1824.
Lord King,after adverting to the voluminous evidence of the committee of 1815, complained that the Incorporated Society had not attended to the recommendations in the report on that occasion. It appeared that the usher of Stradbally school who had been dismissed at the instance of Mr. Leslie Foster, one of the commissioners, had since been promoted to a more lucrative situation. In the memorial which the usher had sent to the Board in Dublin he spoke of the gentleman by whom he had been dismissed, in very disrespectful terms, describing him as "a Mr. Leslie Foster." The members of the board, however, seemed resolved to encourage him, their object being to decry every one who wished to correct abuses. The cause of the usher's dismissal was cruelty to the children. But how had the board acted? They advanced him to a more lucrative situation, instead of marking their sense of his conduct in the way that it deserved.
The Bishop of Fernsadmitted, that the conduct of the individual in question had been very censurable. Three indictments for cruelty had been preferred against him, and he was tried the other day before the lord chief baron in the town of Maryborough. The jury was composed partly of Catholics and partly of Protestants, and they acquitted him on the first and second indictment without leaving the box, and the third was consequently abandoned. He did not know that in point of form he could move for the judge's notes of the trial, but if that were allowed, he should wish to do so. The

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usher had been too severe over the children, and he was removed to a school where he could not exercise his severity, but where his talents, as a practical mathematician, might be highly useful. He had been sent to a school expressly intended for the education of parish clerks and schoolmasters. Another serious charge contained in the report was, the want of religious education in the different schools. It was stated in that report, that in a school in the diocese of Leighlin and Ferns there were twenty of the senior boys who had never heard of St. Paul.
But he would only refer to the passage in the report where the charge was made for its own contradiction. It was there stated, that the scholars were not only acquainted with the church catechism, but with the explanation of it, in which references were made to St. Paul not less than thirty times.
Lord Kingthought it much better that the right rev. prelate should give notice of a regular discussion on this subject than indulge in desultory observations with regard to it. It was said that there were twenty boys who had heard references made to St. Paul, but in his opinion there were very few who had heard one word about Job. He could see no advantage whatever that was likely to result from this sort of superficial knowledge.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had B motion connected with this subject to submit to their lordships, which would have the effect of bringing one part of the information required before them. He wished to see a return laid on their lordships' table of the number of scholars in all the charter schools of Ireland, distinguishing the different religious persuasions. He agreed with the noble lord, that this question ought not to be discussed without a regular notice, and he should therefore abstain from making any remarks. He must, however, express his hope, that some satisfactory explanation could be given of what had been stated in parliament of the past proceedings in the chartered schools; and which showed the existence of a degree of cruelty and mismanagement quite extraordinary and, when it was recollected under what system of inspection those schools had been placed by parliament, quite unexpected. He thought an inquiry was necessary, and he hoped it would be an effectual inquiry. Something was necessary for the satisfaction of the individuals themselves,
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and of the public. It could not be, he thought, that all those abuses had taken, place under the inspection of distinguished characters; abuses which, if true, were calculated to throw discredit on the national church, and on all those engaged under the system. He had read with indignation, the accounts of these abuses, as contained in the recorded votes of the other house of parliament; but he hoped to see those statements disproved. The noble marquis concluded by moving for the return, which was ordered.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Kingsaid, he had to present to their lordships a petition against the Corn-laws from one of the largest parishes in the metropolis. The petitioners stated, that they had confidence in the good intentions of his majesty's government. He also had confidence in ministers, and he was glad to see that they were likely to receive real support from without; for otherwise they might expect little from within parliament. He sincerely trusted they would not be deterred from proceeding in their course, and that the public would not slacken their efforts; for, unless ministers were supported by petitions, it would be impossible for them to carry their good intentions into effect. In consequence of the part he had taken on this question, a great deal of advice had been offered to him by different persons. Some had requested him to desist, hinting that his speeches were like sermons in Lent, and repeated as often. Others were of opinion that he had a vicious propensity to make corn cheap; and as they thought that a vicious propensity in him, he must suppose that they considered a disposition to make corn dear a virtuous propensity. A third party complained that he treated these worthy Corn-laws like a miscreant at the bar of the Old Bailey, giving them all kinds of bad names. He was blamed for stigmatizing them with more aliases than ever was given to a thief on his trial: for he had called them the Corn-laws, alias the bread-tax, alias the dead-weight, alias the landlords' tax, and, worst of all, alias the job of jobs. Now, as so much kindness had been shown to him in the way of advice, he wished to give the House some good advice in return. In the first place, he would beg of noble lords to reflect what the situation of the country would be if the price of corn were to rise considerably? That such an event might happen

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was no vain fear. He could state it as matter of fact, that there was at this time less corn than usual in granaries in the country; that the markets were less crowded with supplies; and that in the warehouses there was less corn than had ever been known at any former period. Now he would seriously ask the House to consider what the state of things would be if corn were to rise considerably before harvest? By such a rise, this country would be thrown into a state of much greater difficulty than it experienced in 1796, 1797, and 1801, because the population was now much greater than at that time; and because there had been for a long time past no importation from abroad. Besides, he believed that a sufficient supply could not be at once obtained by importation; for he understood that it would appear from the report which the noble lord opposite had promised to Jay on the table, that the state of the foreign markets did not hold out much expectation of large importations, and, at least, that they could not be looked to for any sudden supply to a large extent. But it was above all things to be recollected, that according to the present law, our ports could not be opened, and no foreign corn could be admitted, until the price rose in this country to 80 s.—to an amount which, in the present state of things, would be a starving price, indicative of a period of famine. He had lately seen a report made to the French minister of the interior, in which the average price of corn in different countries was stated. The price was given in franks, but the proportion showed the difference in several parts of Europe. According to this statement, the price in England which was 27 f. 32 c., was higher than in any other country. At Amsterdam the average was 12 f. 32 c. In France it was higher; the average there being nearly 16 f. The only place in Europe in which the price of corn approached the height at which it stood in England, was Spain, under the misgovernment of Ferdinand. Thus their lordships divided between them and that despot the disgrace of making corn dearer in England and in Spain than in any other country of Europe. How was this disgrace to be wiped off, and the evil of high prices to be corrected? The only resource their lordships had for accomplishing that object, was a revision of the Corn-laws. That, however, he believed, would not be done until the noble earl
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opposite was resolved to clear away all the lumber and cobwebs which embarrassed and darkened the cabinet—until he dismissed all useless members, to go, if they liked, to king Ferdinand, whose ministers they were well fitted to be. If the noble earl would take this advice, he would, when he came to the task of revision, find that House as plastic as a piece of potter's clay. But if he did not choose to do this, there was another way in which the business might be managed. When the usual circular at the commencement of next session came to be written, the noble earl had better address his old friends in these terms:—"My lord, parliament is to meet for the despatch of very important business on the 3rd of February next, when your lordship's absence is most earnestly requested." All that was needful was to get his old friends to stay away. This was his advice to the noble earl; but he had said that he would give advice to the House, and he would now give it in one word. His advice to them was simply "Do justice." What right had that House, or any legislative assembly, to devise means to raise the price of food? It would be a breach of trust, if it could be supposed that so monstrous a proposition was acted upon by any parties in parliament, as to make corn dear for their own advantage. Such a course, if persisted in, was calculated to bring on one of those political convulsions, in which a lawless power might step in, as was once done in another place, and say to one, "You are an extortioner," to another "You are a tithemonger" "Get you gone, and give place to honester men."
Lord Calthorpethought, that the discussion of the subject had better be postponed to the next session. He did not think it was for the interest of the landlords to maintain the present Corn-laws, but that importation, under a moderate duty, would be more to their advantage. He did not conceive that those laws had been proposed from any interested motive* On the contrary, he believed that they were submitted to parliament under the honest conviction that they were not only good for the landed interest, but for the public at large. There certainly would be great evil in allowing the question to remain long in its present state. If any delusion existed on the subject, the best way to remove it would be to submit the question to the investigation of a com-

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mittee. The noble earl had very properly taken this course on a recent occasion. To neglect to institute an inquiry was not so much abstaining from discussion as shutting out that light which it was their lordships' duty to seek. He thought he was not reflecting on the agricultural classes of this country, when he said that they were not so enlightened, or so ready to form just views on great national questions, as other classes of the community. Ministers ought not to hesitate to enter upon a revision of the Corn-laws; for if they were even to be defeated in both Houses of parliament, the attempt to lower the duty would raise them still higher in the public esteem. He did not expect that any great difference in the price of corn would be the result of an alteration of the law; but he regarded that alteration as an indispensable step in the system of wise policy which ministers had adopted with respect to commerce.
The Earl of Limerickthought, that the first noble lord's obvervations, though very inflammatory, carried with them their own cure. He was struck with the singular coincidence between the noble lord's speech, and the name of the place whence the petition came. It was the petition of the parish of St. Luke, and much of what had fallen from the noble lord appeared to be strongly impregnated with the quality which was generally supposed to abound in that parish. The noble lord had been very free with his advice; but he was satisfied that both his majesty's ministers and the House had too much sense to take it.
Lord Clifdenapproved of the determination of his majesty's ministers to postpone the discussion of the corn question to the next session. The consideration of the currency occupied parliament to such a degree as would render it very inconvenient to enter upon a revision of the Corn-laws. He hoped, however, that the subject would be brought forward early next session, and that importation on a moderate duty would be allowed. He understood that the gentlemen who had been sent abroad to make inquiries, were of opinion that no such quantity of foreign corn could be introduced as would hurt the agricultural interest. Some gentlemen said that the agricultural interest would be ruined by importations. He did not believe this. The ports had been opened for barley, and since that period, barley had been at 52 s. per quarter.
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It had afterwards fallen to 32 s., but that was not in consequence of importation. He was in Munster when the ports were opened for the admission of oats, and there the people all expected to be ruined. They were horror-struck, and said that oats would be down to 5s. the barrel or 15 s. a quarter; but this was not the case. He was not one of those who thought that corn must be very cheap before the labourers could be comfortable; but until they had the value of a bushel and a half of wheat a week, they could not be comfortable. As long as they only received about 7s. a week, when wheat was at 10 s. a bushel, their lot must be miserable. This, or worse than this, was the case in the south and west of England. The farmers gave the labourers 5s. a week; and made up their wages out of the poor rates.
Ordered to lie on the table.

BANK NOTES PAYABLE WHERE ISSUED.
The Marquis of Lansdownrose to call their lordships' attention, and particularly the attention of the noble earl opposite, to a topic which had been mentioned on a former occasion. He alluded to the practice of many bankers issuing promissory notes of making them payable at some place distant from where they were issued. This was a practice which could not be defended. He knew that by the bill which had lately received their lordships' sanction, bankers would at the end of three years be obliged to make their notes payable at the place where they were issued; but he thought this evil ought not to be allowed to continue so long. When the practice had been mentioned on a former occasion, the noble earl opposite had doubted whether it was so extensive as was stated. Now, he had heard of fifty-five banks which issued promissory notes that were not payable out of London. He had heard, indeed, that one bank, as far off as Aberdeen, made its notes payable in London. The branch banks of the Bank of Ireland issued the notes of that Bank payable only in Dublin, and circulated them all over the south of Ireland; at present those notes were at a discount, and in the large towns of the south, such as Cork, could not be disposed of without the loss of 4d. This he knew was the case within the last fortnight. Great mischief must result from this practice, and the legislature ought not to allow its existence. He was at a

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loss how to frame a motion on the subject, so as to produce any information to be laid on their lordships' table; but if the noble earl opposite would give him assistance, he might, perhaps, accomplish his object. At present, he did not know to what office an order, requiring to be laid on their lordships' table, an account of the number of banks issuing notes not payable at the spot where they were issued, could be sent, or he should certainly make a motion to that effect. Their lordships must recollect, that it was not only one and two pound notes that were so payable, but larger notes; and he thought the names of the bankers who did this ought to be known to the public. Though he should not conclude by making any motion, he was glad to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the noble earl opposite to the subject.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he should be very ready to give the noble marquis any assistance in his power in obtaining the information he wished, but he did not know how it could be accomplished. It was desirous on many accounts to correct the evil he had pointed out; but, as the law stood, he did not see how it could be immediately corrected. A clause had been added to the bill, which had lately received their lordships' assent, and which would in a day or two receive the royal assent, by a noble friend of his, compelling all banks, at the period when that act came into operation, to pay their notes at the places where they were issued. But it was not supposed possible, with any regard to what he might call vested rights, to make that clause immediately operative. If the notes were now to be stamped, he should say, certainly, that none should be issued to bankers who did not come under that obligation; but the notes were already stamped, and most of those which were to circulate for the next three years were most probably already in circulation. It had, therefore, been thought, that the clause could not be brought into operation before the period assigned for the act to take effect. Agreeing in principle with the noble marquis, he thought their lordships might, in any bill which was brought in to regulate the issues of notes either in Scotland or Ireland, make such a clause a part of the bill, and it might be brought immediately into operation. Even if they were not to legislate in other respects for Scotland and Ireland, they might legislate in this.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he was sensible that there was a difficulty in the way of any proposition on the subject with respect to England; but as to Ireland and Scotland he saw none. As much evil might arise in those countries from the circulation of small notes not payable at the place where they were issued, he would, after the Easter recess, call their lordships' attention to the subject. This he considered indispensable, whatever might be the nature of any measure which might emanate from the committee.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that in the last session but one, a case had been brought before their lordships by writ of error, in which a promissory note or bill of exchange had been made payable in London. A question had arisen, whether it was sufficient that a demand for payment of that note had been made in the country, or whether it must be made in London? On this subject the judges were divided; several of them thought it was not necessary that the demand should be made in London; but the majority, and their lordships were of the same opinion, thought that it was necessary to make the demand in London, and that the declaration should contain an averment that it had been made. But since that period, an act had been passed, making promissory notes payable in London, demandable elsewhere, unless it was expressly stated on the note that it was payable only in London. If this were the case, country bank notes fell under this law; and if not made payable only in London, payment of them might be demanded at the place where they were issued. He would examine the law on the subject, to see if the opinion he had thrown out was correct, and would report the result to their lordships.
The Earl of Limerick,as an Irishman, was thankful to the noble marquis for having brought this subject before their lordships. The notes of the Dublin Bank were payable only in Dublin.