Lords Sitting of 9 March 1826

ROMAN CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Earl of Darnley, in rising to present a petition on this subject from a highly respectable body of individuals; said it had been in his hands for some days, and the reason why he had not brought it forward before was, that he saw the attention of parliament directed towards those measures which were introduced for the purpose of alleviating the commercial distress under which the country laboured. He had therefore thought it better to postpone the consideration of if, until the improved circumstances of the country would allow their lordships to give it that attention which the importance of the question deserved. Moreover, he found that parliament had been engaged on another subject, in which a certain portion of the community took a great interest; namely, those measures which were adopted for ameliorating the condition of the slaves. Though he by no means found fault with the ardent zeal which was evinced on behalf of the slaves, yet he must confess that his humanity was not of so excursive a nature, but that he must consider the state of a great proportion of the pool of Ireland quite as interesting as that of the slaves of the West Indies. In fact, the condition of the slaves in those islands was not, in many cases, so bad as the condition of the Irish poor. If was riot at present his intention to enter into any discussion on this subject, but he pledged himself to do so on some future occasion. In the mean time, he hoped their lordships would fee as much sympathy for the peasantry of Ireland, as they did for the slaves of-the West Indies. It appeared that the prime movers of the petitions in favour of the slaves belonged to a powerful sect, who, by an unnatural alliance with the high church, had contributed more than any other to that unfortunate decision against the Catholics which their lordships had come to in the course of the last sessions While they called upon their lordships to precipitate the emancipation of the

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negroes, regardless of the consequences, they would at the same time deny emancipation to the Catholics of Ireland, by which alone the safety of that country, and of the empire at large, could be preserved. The more he saw of the state of Ireland, the more was his mind impressed with the decided conviction, that that country could never be tranquil, nor the empire secure, until the just claims of the Catholic body were granted. The petitioners prayed their lordships to restore them to their just rights; but their prayers had been refused under false pretences. And here he must refer to the argument used against them by the noble earl opposite. His speech was, he thought, the most acrimonious, excepting that of a right reverend prelate, he had ever heard. The noble earl had stated, that he would not treat the question as a theological one, but all the noble earl's arguments went to establish what he regarded as a mischievous absurdity in the Roman Catholic faith; namely, divided allegiance. But if their allegiance was divided, what could be more absurd than to give them the command of our fleets and armies, and withhold their civil rights? They, however, utterly disclaimed the imputation. They solemnly declared that they professed allegiance to the king alone, though in the speech of the noble earl they were accused of giving it also to another. This accusation had created among the Catholics a soreness which was very natural, and for which he could by no means blame them. In his Opinion, great allowance ought to be made for any acts of indiscretion which they committed, deprived as they were of their civil rights by false pretences. The noble earl ought to read, without delay, a pamphlet addressed to him by that highly-gifted individual Dr. Doyle, written in the spirit of Christian charity. The petition he had to present came from the Catholics of Drogheda, and was signed by 2,500 persons.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that with respect to what was stated in the petition on the subject of divided allegiance, that such a charge amounted to a charge of perjury, he must disclaim ever having made it. The Catholics declared, that in taking the oath of allegiance to his majesty, they disclaimed any divided allegiance, and he was convinced that in swearing allegiance, they swore what they conscientiously believed to be true. But they
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also acknowledged a spiritual allegiance to the pope; and the real question was, how far that spiritual allegiance was reconcileable with their civil allegiance. That was fair matter of argument. He had already stated his opinion on the question, with the grounds on which it was founded. That opinion was before the House and the public, and he would never shrink from its avowal; but all that he wished now to say was that in stating it, he did not accuse the Roman Catholics of swearing to any thing which they did not believe to be strictly true.
Ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Kingsaid, he had another petition to present against the job of jobs. It came from the carpenters and joiners of London, and was signed by 1,400 persons, who stated, that the law which excluded foreign corn greatly injured them, by the manner in which it affected the remuneration of their labour, and he agreed with them la the opinion. Some people were very fond of high prices, high rents, and high wages. By high prices they alleged that every thing was equalized; but in his opinion this sort of equalization did not produce any thing like equity or justice between parties. The great desideratum with the supporters of the Corn laws, wag certainly at all times high rents. But how were high rents to be obtained without high prices? The real object, then, was high prices; and high prices were not to be had without the exclusion of foreign corn. But, if you exclude foreign corn, you exclude food. Some people, however, said, that this exclusion of foreign corn created more English food. But it could do so in no other way than by forcing bad land; and if bad land was forced to produce food, it must be at the expense of so much additional labour—of labour far more than equivalent to the value of the food produced. Still, however, some persons said, "If you alter the Corn laws you will do no good, because to lower the price of corn will only be to lower the price of labour with it." But this was a very erroneous opinion; as the present state of things, compared with that when corn was cheap, would show. The price of labour now afforded the labourer only a bare existence, whereas heretofore he got enough, not only for his subsistence, but for comforts. It was certainly true that if corn were cheap, the money price

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of labour would fall; but the real remuneration of labour would increase. He should think that abundance and cheapness of food would be regarded as a great blessing to any country, and one which a wise and benevolent legislature would be desirous to confer. This he should expect now; whatever might have been done hi those dark times of legislation, when parliament thought fit to declare that paper and gold were of equal value.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid, he was for la free trade in corn as well as in everything else, but did not think that the question was one which should be discussed in the present state of the country. The noble lord went into arguments which others were not prepared to answer, and which, if they were, ought not to be discussed at that time. He could not acquiesce in the term "job" given to an act of parliament, which had not been adopted untilafter the most serious consideration. The measure was introduced in one session, and was not adopted until the next. Parliament might have erred, but if there was error, it was not intentional. If, upon due consideration, it should be found that the Corn laws were not consistent with the general interest, parliament would doubtless alter them. His wish was, that the agriculturist and the manufacturer should be placed on an equal footing, and that the Corn laws should form no impediment m the way of free trade. But his noble friend should consider what had been the effect produced by the Bank Restriction Set, the operation of which had lasted for twenty-five years. After the operation of that act had brought into cultivation land which Was never before cultivated, and had also brought into existence an immense agricultural population, which would be thrown out of employ by the discontinuance of that cultivation, he did not think that their lordships could suddenly rid themselves of all the consequences of that measure, without producing in every part of the country, greater distress than could be experienced by the journeymen carpenters of London; who he believed were as well off as most workmen. He made these observations, to show that it was not the landlords who were altogether to blame with respect to the Corn laws. The present was a period of commercial distress; but it should be recollected, that there had also been a time of agricultural distress. But at that time did not persons in trade also suffer? Did they not complain that the
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home market failed them? This snowed how closely the interests of all parties were bound up together, and that the present question was one of difficult solution. It was understood, however, that, if hot in this, their lordships would in the next session be called upon for a decision. There, was therefore no reason for anticipating the discussion. Instead of using the word "job," he should wish his noble friend to avoid all harsh language on the subject, and allow it to be calmly considered. The course his noble friend pursued could only tend to produce angry feelings.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he did not rise in the expectation of correcting the vicious propensity of his noble friend who presented the petition, the only effect of whose language, in returning again and again to the same subject, must be to create discontent; which he knew could not be the intention of his noble friend. With regard to his own opinion on the Corn laws, it was a mistaketo suppose that he had decided against any alteration. If, however, parliament should withdraw all protection from agriculture, he did not think that such an alteration would be advantageous to the labourer; for if bread became cheap, labour would be cheap also. The question, in fact, was not one of high rents, but whether this country, involved in great domestic and financial difficulties, could compete on the same terms with countries experiencing no such embarrassments. He had thought it necessary to say this much, but hoped he should not be again provoked to notice the subject, until it came regularly under the consideration of the House.
Lord Kingdid not doubt but he should have occasion to provoke his noble friend again and again on this subject, if he was determined to be provoked every time a petition was presented. It was singular enough, however, that his two noble friends took such different views of his conduct. The one thought that he took the House by surprise with his arguments, the other that he used the same arguments too often. Nevertheless they both agreed in wishing him to discontinue his practice of addressing the House. It was certainly kind of his two noble friends to favour him with so much of their advice. He had indeed, got a great deal of advice of late; but he could not help thinking that there was occasionally something in the nature of it, that rendered it rather suspicion. He had been entreated, both in prose and

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verse, to cease his exertions. The two noble friends were not only prodigal of their advice to him, but equally ready to give it to the labourers. The effect of their advice was—"Do not trust to those who wish to make com plenty and cheap, but to us who will make it dear and give you little of it."
Ordered to lie on the table.

STATE OF THE CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT IN THE SOUTH OF IRELAND.
The Earl of Kingstonrose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. He had hoped, he said, that the subject would have been taken up by some one better qualified for the task than he was; and indeed he wished it had been brought before their lordships by one of the learned prelates, to whose province it more particularly belonged. From the reports upon their lordships' table, it appeared, that a vast number of unions of parishes had taken place in the province of Munster, not such unions as that of seven religious houses in the city of Cork, which altogether did not extend over half a mile; but of large parishes, extending over a distance of fifteen miles. In that large union, there was only one church, and that one church had been built by a private individual, the ancestor of the present lord Massey. In the province of Munster, their lordships would find instances of six, seven, and eight parishes united together, with but one church amongst them all. Now, it was impossible to expect people to remain of the Protestant religion in a place where they had no church to attend, and where they could not even procure the attendance of a clergyman in cases of emergency. He bad been told, that no curate had been seen in the parish of Kilbennie for several years, and that the inhabitants were therefore obliged, when they required the performance of any religious office, to send to the rector of another parish five or six miles off. He did not mean, by making these observations, to say any thing disrespectful of the clergy. Undoubtedly, they had done much. Many churches had been built, but they had not funds to build all that were necessary. In moving, therefore, for a commitee to consider the present state of the church in Munster, he was rather addressing himself to his majesty's ministers, in the hope of inducing them to furnish the clergy with the means of building churches, and per-
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petuating the established religion. The piety and zeal of the Roman Catholic clergymen in that part of the country were truly praiseworthy. They attended their flocks with the most exemplary attention; while the Protestant inhabitants had no person to attend to their spiritual wants. The noble earl, after referring to the reports before the House, for the number of unions in the dioceses of Cashel and Limerick, Ardfert and Aghadoe, concluded by moving for a committee to inquire into the state of the Protestant church in Munster. In Ulster, he said, there was a church in every parish.
The Earl of Harrowbythought the noble earl had not laid before the House sufficient grounds to induce them to accede to his motion. He had moved for a committee, while the very papers which he held in his hands would, if examined, have afforded an answer thereto. There could be little doubt, that in some cases these unions of parishes had been a great evil; but he did not think that observation could be properly made of those unions which had been effected under episcopal authority, and which must, therefore, be supposed to have been made on good consideration. It was said, that many of these unions were without a single church, and blame had been attributed to the government on that account. Now, the fact was, that the government were not at all insensible to the evils of which the noble earl had complained. That they were not insensible to these evils, might be proved by the single fact, that in the twenty years preceding 1822,175 churches had been built in the province of Munster, and 122 glebe houses had been given. In the particular case to which the noble earl had alluded, the vicar was not resident, but the curate had always attended. These returns contained all the information that the noble earl could acquire, even if the committee were granted; and for himself he must say, that he thought the granting of a committee would be casting an undeserved slur on the dignitaries of the church of Ireland.
The Bishop of Fernsthought himself bound, as the clerical representative of that part of the kingdom, to say a few words on this subject. He should call on the House to exercise all their indulgence towards him, for he was not much accustomed to addressing public bodies on any subject, and on this subject par-

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ticularly he was unprepared. He had none of his Irish brethren to assist him, and the notice of motion had been too short to enable him to send to Ireland for information. Returns of unions, and of their dissolution, and the time when such dissolution took place, had been made, and every information had been afforded, except that which might be expected from the proceeding now going on in Ireland. The noble earl opposite had referred to the extent of these unions, but their extent alone did not furnish any satisfactory evidence of the difficulty or facility of the performance of clerical duties. One parish, he knew, was several miles in length, and three quarters of a mile in breadth, and the difficulty there arose not so much from its extent as its form. There was another parish, of which he had given up the tithes for building a church, and that parish although very small, possessed a greater number of parishioners than some which were much larger. The evil did not lie where the noble earl seemed to imagine, and the true remedy was, not to dissolve the parish unions, but to erect chapels of ease, for the accommodation of those who were at a distance from the church. The fact was, it was only by means of these unions that the rectors could be able to receive any payment; for although these unions covered a great extent of ground, it was seldom they had many inhabitants. The rectors at present, so far from being overpaid, were actually very poor. Many of these unions were so poor, as to leave nothing to pay the rector after he had discharged the claims of his curates. The rector of Wexford had three curates, and their pay, although moderate, swallowed up nearly the whole revenue of the parish. There were seven episcopal unions in Cashel, and in. none were there more than two parishes. In Emly there were only two unions. He had once applied to the board of First Fruits to erect an additional church in Leitrim, in which there were five hundred parishioners, who complained that they were too distant from the church; but the application was refused, on the ground of want of funds; and in another case, where he had been applied to, he had felt himself bound to require, before he interfered, a description of the form of the parish, as well as of the number of its inhabitants. After some observations, his lordship concluded by expressing his conviction that the survey at present going
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on in Ireland would furnish his majesty's government with the best information as to what measures they ought to adopt with regard to this subject.
The Earl of Kingstoninsisted that he had made out a case to justify his motion, and that the circumstances stated by the right rev. prelate proved it. He knew a district in the South of Ireland, through which one might travel along the high road for a distance of twenty-two miles without seeing a single church. Although, however, he was satisfied that he had fully made out a case, yet as his object in: bringing forward his motion was to point the attention of the learned prelates to the subject, he was willing to abstain from pressing it.—His lordship accordingly withdrew his motion.