The Marquis of Lansdownwished to ask of the noble lord opposite, how far the suggestions thrown out in the report of the committee of the House on the State of Ireland, imperfect as they were, had been acted upon. He called them imperfect, certainly not from any disposition to speak slightingly of the labours of the persons who composed the committee, of whom he himself was one, but because they were from the nature of the inquiry imperfect, and the committee themselves called them imperfect. However, a great many suggestions of importance had been thrown out on the subject of education and other matters connected with the state of Ireland, and he supposed the king's government had acted upon those suggestions as far as was found practicable. There were circumstances in the state of Ireland which rendered it very desirable that some of the suggestions should be carried into effect without delay. He was therefore very anxious to learn what had been done in pursuance of the suggestions in the report.
The Earl of Liverpoolprofessed himself ready to give the noble marquis every information in his power on the subject to which he had referred. In doing this, he would take the report of the committee for the basis of his explanation, and would go over the points suggested one by one. The first suggestion related to an alteration of the law of landlord and tenant. The subject had been referred to the law officers of the Crown, who had had it for some time under their consideration, and the result of their opinion had at last been 129 digested and prepared for the consideration of parliament. What he had to say on the next point was not so satisfactory. The subject of grand jury presentments had been, and still was, under the anxious consideration of government; but it was not in such a state that any measure upon it could soon be submitted to the consideration of parliament. The next point was the criminal and civil business of the quarter sessions, on which he could not say that any thing was done. The next suggestion related to assistant barristers. It was recommended that they should not act as counsellors, and that was agreed to. The next points were the constitution of civil and criminal courts, the process of custodiam, the summary regulations of sheriffs and sub-sheriffs. Upon these points a report would hereafter be made. The next point was the administration of justice by magistrates in corporate towns. On this subject a bill was prepared. The next topic related to fictitious forty-shilling freeholders. On this subject he was not prepared to say that any measure was in progress for the consideration of parliament. Among the succeeding points of suggestion were the extension of public works, additional accommodations for lunatics, and regulations of manor courts. With regard to them nothing particular had been done; but, the two most important suggestions related to tithes and education. Upon the first of these topics he could assert, that the measures which had been adopted by parliament had been most successful; so successful as to exceed the expectations of himself, the original proposer. Returns had been received from all the dioceses of Ireland, with the exception of two. From these returns, it appeared that the act had been carried into execution, with success, in at least one fourth of the parishes in Ireland. But these returns did not afford evidence of all the advantages derived from the measure. The agreements which were made in other parishes, in consequence of the act, but which rendered its operations unnecessary, were to be reckoned among its good effects. The operation of the act had been found most beneficial in the south and west of Ireland; and in the county of Cork, the business of the assistant barrister had been reduced one half in consequence of the absence of tithe causes. With regard to the point of education, it was wished to act on the system suggested, 130 but many difficulties had been experienced In Ireland, prejudices were very strong with regard to education, both among Catholics and Protestants. It was therefore thought, that the best way would be to desire the commissioners to try an experiment in some place where it was not likely any resistance would be made to their plan. They readily undertook the task, and had since been employed in endeavouring to accomplish the object. It would certainly have been most desirable if the system originally proposed could have been carried into effect. Many difficulties had occurred; and the misfortune was, that every one had a system of his own. If, however, the experiment was once fairly tried, he had no doubt that it would succeed.
Lord Ellenboroughhad heard with regret what the noble lord had said about grand-jury presentments. He was sorry that no measure was in preparation on that subject. There certainly were not too few, but too many roads in Ireland. These roads were so many jobs, and were managed in such a way that the grand juries had not the means of doing justice. He was convinced that most of the money raised for making roads in Ireland was thrown away, as far as regarded the interest of the public. Part of a road was made this year, and part another; but the benefit which the public was to derive from it was postponed till the whole was completed, which might be twenty years; and till that period he considered the money completely thrown away. In a part where a gentleman resided, the roads were kept in very good order; but it often happened that where the country was populous, they were in very bad condition. With regard to the corporations, he believed the administration of justice was sometimes corrupt, and he thought that inquiry ought to be made into the mode of admitting persons into their freedom. He did not know how far the attention of government had been directed to the question of relief to the poor. For his own part, his opinion was very strong against any thing being done in that way. With regard to the question of education, it was his firm conviction, that until the Catholics gained their rights, they would never agree to any system of education which had been suggested. The public mind was at present greatly exasperated in consequence of the rejection of the measure of last session, and therefore any 131 suggestions on the subject were not likely to be listened to.
§ Lord Clifdenbelieved, that the government would be glad to put an end to the grand-jury presentment system, if they could; but that was not easily accomplished. He agreed with the noble lord in what he had said about the roads, the management of which was often an enormous and shameful job.
The Earl of Liverpoolassured the noble lord, that any suggestion respecting the evils of grand-jury presentments should not be lost. The subject was under consideration. With regard to the administration of justice in corporate towns, whatever evils there might be to complain of, they could not be with propriety corrected by any general laws, because, the rights of corporations were secured by charter. He had no objection to a law to meet particular cases, but a general law would affect those who had discharged their duty properly, as well as those who bad neglected it. Besides, it was to be recollected, that when individuals found themselves aggrieved, they had their remedy in a court of law. He should be extremely anxious to see something done for the poor, if it were practicable. At the same time he was not prepared to say that any thing was practicable.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he should not be satisfied with any alteration on the subject of grand-jury presentments respecting roads, unless it was provided that no road should be undertaken except upon the report of a sworn surveyor. He also thought that no road should be undertaken without the sanction of government.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, that no agreement on the subject of education could be expected in Ireland, so long as the Catholics were deprived of their rights. The discontent produced by that denial of justice prevented every plan of reform from succeeding. Let the anxiety of the noble earl opposite to benefit that country be as strong as he asserted it to be, still, so long as the principles he avowed last session were acted upon, it was impossible there could be tranquillity in Ireland. He might as well attempt to erect a perfect building on an insecure foundation. With such an obstacle to improvement, all the efforts of the noble lord must fail. On the subject of education, an opportunity had occurred, before 132 the rejection of the Catholic bill, to do much. There was a disposition on the part both of Catholics and Protestants to give way to each other; but the extinguisher on the question of emancipation had put an end to all hope of conciliation. With regard to the poor, he did not think that a system of poor laws ought to be established in Ireland.