Lords Sitting of 14 April 1826

SLAVERY IN THE WEST INDIES—MEMORIAL OF THE ASSEMBLY AT ANTIGUA.
Lord Dudley and Wardsaid, he rose to present a petition of considerable importance. It was the petition of the Board and Council and House of Assembly of the island of Antigua; but it

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was signed in the name of the legislative body by the Speaker only. He did not know, therefore, whether the petition could be received as from the whole assembly or not, but he might observe not only on the statements of the petitioners, but what he believed to be other good authority, that the island from which this petition came was amongst the best in the West Indies, as to the moral condition of the slaves—one in which their situation would best bear comparison with that of free blacks, and in which the nearest approach was made to free labour. When, however, the petition came to be read at length, which he intended to propose it should be, their lordships, perhaps, would be of opinion that the petitioners had indulged in expressions which might be considered too harsh, against the persons in this country who took an active interest in the abolition of negro slavery. He wished that all discussions on this subject should be conducted with good temper and moderation; but this, at least, might be said for the petitioners —that no language used by them could be harsher than that which had often been applied to the colonists themselves by the anti-slavery party in this country. But these considerations did not affect the great object of the petition, which he should shortly state. The petitioners prayed, that if any measure for the abolition of slavery, likely to be injurious to their interests, should be carried into effect, they should be allowed full and fair indemnification. In presenting this petition it was not necessary for him to state what his own views on this question were; but this much he might say, that while negroes remained the slaves of the planters, he did not think that what was done merely to ameliorate their condition, could form a ground for such a claim. The moment, however, that another important step was taken—the moment, however prompted by humanity, and with whatever prospect of success, measures were taken to set the slaves free from their masters, the nature of the case was completely altered, and the owners were justly entitled to indemnification. Where slavery ended, compensation began. This appeared to him to be the fair state of the question. That one man should be the property of another was a proposition which none would now maintain; but such had, for more than 150 years, been the law of this country. The colonists had only been
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parties to the maintenance of that law in common with the rest of the people of England, and therefore should not be the sole sufferers by its abrogation. The practice which was now discovered to be unjust, had been warmly fostered by our ancestors, and the whole price of repentance ought not to be paid by those who were only sharers in the guilt and impolicy of the transaction. Such, certainly, had not been the course hitherto followed, with respect to many claims not better founded than those of the planters. It was even the practice of the legislature to pay attention to the claims of property which had grown up without being sanctioned by law. Cases which occurred when the Union with Ireland took place, afforded instances in point. What, indeed, could be more contrary to justice and the spirit of the constitution, than that persons should be indemnified for yielding up an influence which they possessed over the legislature? If a man who said, "I have a vote, and have an influence in returning so many members to parliament, therefore, pay me 15,000 l. down, or I will vote against you," could be listened to, surely the legislature would not refuse to hear the planters. The West-India proprietors had claims to indemnification, which stood upon far better grounds as to right and justice, than any which those gentlemen who trafficked in political influence could set up. In many of the petitions which prayed for the abolition of slavery, the principle of compensation had been admitted; but he had his doubts whether considerable discrepancies would not be found, when the application of the principle came to be in question; and it seemed to be wished to carry it into effect with haste and precipitation. At first sight it certainly might appear to many of the abolitionists, that nothing was more easy than to substitute free labour for slavery; but if they chose to reflect, they would find, that such a change was not to be accomplished with all the facility they anticipated. He did not mean to agree with his brother colonists in maintaining, that there was something in the nature of the region they inhabited which rendered free labour impracticable. This was an opinion in which he could not concur, when he saw how very little profit or remuneration sufficed to induce men to labour in the most insalubrious situations, and at works which were obviously injurious to health. But he must agree

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with the petitioners, that the sudden transition from slavery to freedom, which seemed to be the object of the abolitionists, was an experiment of great hazard. How to convert 300,000 or 400,000 men all at once from compulsory into free labourers, was obviously a proposition of very difficult solution; but if this violent experiment was to be made, the expense of making it ought to be borne by the country, and not by the planters. He was aware that it had been thrown out, that in considering the question of compensation, the colonists were not entitled to the full value of their property, as it might be estimated on their profits, since part of those profits arose from the possession of an unjust monopoly. This was, however, an argument which would surely receive no countenance in parliament. If it were admitted, it was difficult to see whither its application might not be carried. If on compensation being required for a canal or road passing through arable land what would noble lords think, if that arrangement were applied to the owner of the estate? Suppose he were told, "Yes, you shall have compensation; but it shall be minus the unjust profit you derive from the monopoly of the corn-laws," would not their lordships revolt at any attempt to establish such a principle as this? In fact, he had no doubt that, on a fair view of the question, the right of the planters to be indemnified would be admitted to stand on precisely the same ground as other claims to compensation which had been allowed by the legislature. And here he must observe, that his own interests in the question would not have led him to interfere at all in its discussion; but he was induced to come forward in the hope of obtaining justice to others. He was anxious to call their lordships' serious attention to the subject to which the petition referred; and he implored them to consider well before they gave into views, which seemed to threaten, in the name of humanity, to sweep away all the ordinary principles of justice. At the close of the petition, a suggestion was thrown out which might appear to their lordships somewhat extraordinary. It was proposed that this country, or the abolitionists should purchase the whole property of the planters—that they should take the island of Antigua to themselves. They might then make whatever experiments they liked as to free labour. Those who were
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for rash experiments might have the opportunity of trying them; but he thought it was by far most desirable that the experiment of free labour should be made by degrees, and on a small scale.
The Earl of Liverpoolwished the petition to be received as the petition of the body of the House of Assembly; but doubted whether that could be done, as it was only signed by the Speaker.
Lord Dudley and Wardthought it would answer every purpose for which the petition was intended, if it was received merely as the petition of the Speaker.
The Earl of Liverpoolwas desirous, that the question should not be decided, until it was known what had been done in similar cases. He did not see how it was possible to avoid receiving petitions, in some way or other, from the colonial assemblies. If the right of parliament to legislate for the colonies was maintained, there must be some means of receiving petitions from them. He therefore thought that inquiry should be made. Some precedent, perhaps, would be found of petitions of the same kind from the American colonies.
The Earl of Lauderdaleobserved, that if inquiry was to take place in order to do justice to one party, he hoped that justice would be done to others. Petitions which were presented from the moderators of the general Assembly of the church of Scotland for the whole of that body, and from the moderators of synods, legally signed according to the law of Scotland, were still only received as the petitions of the persons who signed them.
Lord Melvillecorroborated what the noble earl had just stated.
Lord Calthorpevindicated the abolitionists from the charges made against them. They did not call for rash and precipitate measures, but were desirous that caution and deliberation should accompany every step taken for the emancipation of the slaves. They were also sensible of the blame which attached to themselves in having suffered the evil of slavery so long to exist. He could not help agreeing with those who considered that the colonial legislatures had acted very improperly; but he should certainly rejoice to see the imputations against them disproved.
Lord Dudley and Wardremarked, that very bitter censures had been pronounced on the colonial assemblies at the meetings in support of negro-emancipation. As to

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the wish for precipitation on the part of the abolitionists, a sufficient foundation for that charge was to be found in a speech made by the noble lord himself at one of those meetings. That speech was printed in the papers; and it appeared that the noble lord had stated it to be the object of the society to bring about emancipation before the death of an individual who had greatly distinguished himself in support of that object. Now, if the abolition was to be effected during the life of that most respected individual, his advanced age gave ground to suppose that they would endeavour to accomplish their object with more haste than deliberation.
Lord Calthorpeobserved, that what he said on the occasion alluded to, was, that it would be desirable that some visible approach to the emancipation of the negroes should be made during the life-time of the illustrious individual whose name was so intimately identified with that question. It was merely observed, that if that individual lived to see such an approach to abolition as would give more certainty as to the period of the accomplishment of that object, it would afford him great satisfaction and consolation.
After some further conversation on the question, whether the petition should be received as the petition of the House of Assembly of Antigua, it was agreed that it should be referred to a committee of privileges, and that the petition, in the mean time, should be withdrawn.

CORN LAWS.
Lord King said, he held in his hand a petition signed by several thousands of the population of Preston and its neighbourhood. It came from a district which was populous, but grievously oppressed by the Corn-laws—that great dead weight which bore down all classes, one excepted. The petition was therefore against pauperism and famine; against the pauperism price of corn, which was 60 s. the quarter; and against the famine price, which it reached when it got to 70 s. and upwards; and this famine price he fully expected corn would this year reach. This question, fairly stated, lay between the interests of the landlords on one side, and the prosperity of the country on the other. On the one side was power; on the other reason and justice; but the latter he was sure would triumph, if the good intentions of the noble lord on the other side were not
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fatally counteracted when he came to take up this question seriously, as it was hoped he soon would do. When the price of corn and labour in France and Germany was less than one-half of the price in this country, it was impossible to prevent our manufacturers from removing to those countries. By what magic could our manufactures be prevented from being transferred to places where there was security for property, and where the profits of industry would be great in proportion as wages were lower? What right had the members of the legislature to persist in maintaining a system of laws, which must condemn this country to all the miseries inseparable from a declining state of society?
The Marquis of Salisburywas surprised that the noble lord, holding the opinions he did, had suffered the session to pass away without bringing forward any motion for the discussion of the general question. This would be a fairer course of proceeding than attempting day by day to stir up and irritate the feelings of the manufacturing population. If the noble lord brought the question fairly forward, it would soon be proved that the welfare of the manufacturing classes depended upon the prosperity of the landed interest; but the noble lord chose rather to let the session elapse, than to bring the question to a direct issue.
Lord Kingsaid, he was quite willing to bring the whole question forward, if any effect could be produced by so doing. It was generally understood that the only alteration of the corn-laws that could be carried was a protecting duty. Now, a bill for imposing a duty of any kind could not originate with their lordships. If the forms of the House permitted it, he would bring in a bill to-morrow.
The Earl of Lauderdaleobserved, that it had already been often pointed out to the noble lord, that a more manly course for him to follow would be, to bring the question of the corn-laws regularly before the House; but, instead of doing so, he preferred letting off every now and then a few little squibs. If the noble lord knew any thing of the history of the corn-laws, he could not stand up in that House and assert, that the object of those who wished to maintain those laws was to give dear bread to the poor. In the reign of Charles 2nd the protection against foreign corn amounted to 8l. the quarter, and from the years 1760 to 1775, when not a par-

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ticle was imported, but when 600 quarters were exported, the price of grain did not exceed 33 s. the quarter. Upon a fair examination, the noble lord would find, that the maintenance of what he called the dead weight was the way to get cheap bread to the country. Under that system, bread would always be afforded cheaper than under any other. In another point of view in which the noble lord had looked at this question, he was equally wrong. He thought that there was danger of the manufacturers of the continent underselling those of this country. Now, did he mean to say that the low price of labour had any thing to do with the low price of grain? He knew there were persons who maintained that principle, and also that the price was affected by the currency. He would, however, contend, that the price of labour, like the price of every thing else, depended upon the supply and demand in the market. If the noble lord referred to documents which were before the House, he would learn that in those years when grain was dear, labour was generally cheapest; and that like all commodities, its price was regulated by the supply and demand. On a former occasion, to illustrate this principle, he had sent to Glasgow, and got the price of weaving a certain article for thirty years, and compared it with the price of wheat. The result was, that precisely as corn rose, the price of labour fell. This was not the case with manufacturing labour alone; the principle applied equally to agricultural. A Mr. Mills, who had been examined before a committee of the House, had stated, that in enclosing a farm, the portion of work which, in a cheap year, cost five shillings, he got done in a dear year for half-a-crown. He had thrown out these facts to correct the noble lord's erroneous views on this subject, but he could assure the noble lord, that nothing which he might say should provoke him to reply to the calumnious aspersions he had thrown out on the landed interest—a body composed of persons who paid more attention to the welfare of the poor than could be paid by any other class in the country.
Lord Kingwas not surprised that the noble earl should object to the course he pursued. The noble earl blamed him for using squibs, and asked why he did not bring the question regularly forward. Now, this was easily accounted for. Every one had his own particular mode
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of warfare. His weapons were those little squibs, of which the noble lord complained so much. The noble earl had also his particular mode of warfare: he dealt in paradoxes or crotchets. One of these was, that a protecting duty of 8l. the quarter, made corn cheap in the days of Charles 2nd. But the noble earl should have recollected, that then plenty of good land lay uncultivated, and that there was not one quarter of the present population. At such a time the protecting duty would make good land be cultivated, and as cultivation was extended, the corn produced in this country would become cheap. Now, on the contrary, all good land in every part of the country had long been in cultivation, and the evil of the corn-laws was, that bad land was resorted to for raising corn, and labour uselessly thrown away on its cultivation. Another crotchet of the noble earl was, that dear corn made labour cheap. The price of labour might not correspond with the price of grain in a particular period, but it always did accommodate itself to it in a series of years. If it did not, if there was not this relation between food and labour, then those who made corn dear, knowing that labour was at the same time to be cheap, were guilty of tenfold more injustice and cruelty to the poor, than he had ever ventured to impute to them.
The Earl of Malmesburywas not much disposed to the present sort of warfare, but could not help congratulating the House on the explanation which had just been obtained from the noble lord. It now appeared that the noble lord did not look forward to a free trade in corn, but that he was for a protecting duty. That was the reason he had assigned for not bringing the subject regularly forward. He always thought that the noble lord's doctrine was, that the poor man should have cheap corn, come from where it might —from Germany or Japan. He could not before understand why the noble lord came forward with speeches every day, but now the matter was clearly explained.

LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.
The Marquis of Lansdownrose, for the purpose of moving the second reading of a bill, the object of which was, to make bank notes payable where they were issued. He thought it would not be necessary for him to detain their lordships long in recommending or detailing a

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principle with which they had become familiar, in the course of the discussions that had taken place during the present session. That principle was, that a check ought to be provided against the over-issue of paper-money, and that that check should be founded on a metallic basis. Before, however, he proceeded to the discussion of the measure he now proposed, he would take that opportunity of correcting a misapprehension that had gone abroad respecting the intentions and operations of this bill. Owing to some error, certainly not occasioned by the terms of its provisions, it was imagined that this bill was intended to prevent bank notes being made payable at other places than those at which they were issued. That was certainly not its object. It was not intended to interfere in any manner with the number of places where bank notes might be issued, or where the parties issuing them might choose to make them payable. Its only end was, to secure to the public the means of converting those notes into cash at the place at which they were issued. This measure was one of considerable importance, as it related to two points. First, as it regarded the amount of the paper currency of this country, and in connection with its amount, the possible excess of the issue; and, secondly, as it was connected with the banking system of the country, which ought to be exercised in perfect freedom, and which should be preserved in all its parts, on a fair and equal footing. Their lordships had already determined, with respect to the first of these points, that some check should be afforded to the paper circulation, and that no check against undue circulation could be better than that which was founded on a metallic basis. As their lordships had so determined, of course they would wish that the intended check should operate as readily, as fully, and as completely as possible. To effect this, there were no better means than to give every facility to the inhabitants of the place where bank notes were issued, to take those notes on the first alarm immediately into the bank from whence they were issued, and to procure from that bank payment in cash for the notes so returned. The immediate payment in cash of those notes was what the community had an undoubted right to require at the hands of those in whom the legislature consented to vest the power and
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privilege of creating paper money, and circulating it through the country. No one could doubt, on referring to the events of last year, that it would have been very desirable if a greater facility had been afforded to the people of this country to keep such a check on the issue of paper money, and, by creating a salutary alarm, to prevent those who traded on insufficient capital, from carrying their speculations too far. These persons had, in fact, deluded both themselves and others by their manner of trading; and much of the evil which had arisen from this mutual delusion might have been avoided, if the system on which their business was transacted, had permitted the existence of a salutary alarm, which might have induced them, in the first instance, to contract their issues, and thus to avoid those dangers which afterwards overwhelmed themselves and their neighbours. To this system of speculation, a gradual and a certain check would be provided by the present bill, which made all notes convertible into gold at the place where they were issued. The proposition of this measure had already created a considerable sensation, not among those bankers who might be truly called respectable, but amongst those who entered into the important business of banking with an insufficient capital. As a proof of the effect which this bill might be supposed to have produced among the latter class of men, when they viewed it as a measure which would limit the amount of their circulation, he might mention, that there had been an instance of a banker, who, after making issues of his notes, had, for the sake of forcing those notes into circulation, entered into an arrangement with the paymaster of a regiment, to whom he agreed to give a per centage on such of his notes as he should force into circulation, by making them the medium of payment to the troops under his command; the amount of this per centage being proportioned to the distance of the place where the notes were paid away from that at which they had been issued. This instance clearly showed the importance which bankers attached to the circulation of their notes. He should now refer to the second ground on which he conceived this bill to be necessary; namely, with respect to the placing on an equal footing of liability all the banks in the country. In his opinion, the business of banking should

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be carried on in a spirit of free competition. Now, if some banks were to be made liable to be called on for payment of their notes in cash, and others were not to be subjected to the same liability, it was evident that the latter would possess a great advantage over the former, and the spirit of free competition be destroyed. In such an arrangement, it would always be in the power of one bank to ruin its rival, by creating a false alarm, and thus compelling that rival to pay its notes in gold. By this means, the bank that was under no such liability, might pump out the gold from the others, and, instead of preserving a reservoir of the precious metal for its own use, it might draw all it wanted from the reservoir of its neighbours. If their lordships did not prevent this practice, was it not clear that, in the course of events, we should arrive at a state of things in which the country would only possess notes payable any where but where they were issued? It was owing to this practice, that the notes of one bank in Ireland were at a discount, while those of another were at par; and one was obliged to procure gold to meet its engagements, while the other was constantly receiving it. To avoid such a consequence, and to arrive at a safe and equitable course of proceeding, he called on their lordships to adopt, if not this bill with all its present provisions, at least a bill with a similar object. He was aware that there were persons who did not object to the principle of the bill, but who thought there ought to be some exception as to the extent of its operation. He believed they were of opinion that Scotland should form the exception; and, certainly, after the many opportunities he had had of knowing the talent, the skill, and the judgment which the people of that country employed in the regulation of their commercial and civil arrangements, he should be the last to say that they might not have formed such a system of banking, as to entitle thereto be excepted from the operation of those rules which were imposed upon others. Of this, however, he was certain, that whatever might be the advantages of their system, if it was ever necessary to be defended, it would be defended with a degree of skill, of zeal, and, above all, of unanimity, which the people of the south were not accustomed to display on similar occasions. Before, however, he agreed to an exception, even in favour of
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a people, for whom he was free to confess he felt a sincere respect, he should require that the bill should be passed through its second reading, previous to any alteration being made in its provisions. He believed, that if passed, it would be found fully calculated to guard against a recurrence of those dreadful evils which had lately afflicted this country, through the imperfect and ill-arranged system of banking, by which over-trading was so much encouraged, and such mischievous consequences were incurred. He had the authority of some most respectable country bankers, for saying that such would be the effect of this measure. Those gentlemen were of opinion, that after the passing of this bill, no respectable banker would attempt to circulate his notes where he did not intend to make them payable in gold; or that, if any banker did so, such attempt would be defeated, as the people would only take those which they might at once, in case of necessity, convert into cash.
The Earl of Farnhamsaid, he had no objection to the bill, if it was meant to operate prospectively; but he Celt, that if it was to relate to the paper now in circulation, great difficulty, and indeed much injustice, might arise from the manner in which it was at present worded. As it at present stood, its effect would be, to oblige bankers to call in their notes and to re-issue them with new stamps. And here he ought to observe, that there would be some difficulty in defining what was meant by the word "issue." He would illustrate what he meant, by a reference to the bank of Ireland. Then issues were very large, and a considerable part of the circulating medium of Ireland consisted of their notes, which were made payable in Dublin. Now, if these notes could not be taken in Belfast or Cork, al the notes which were at those places would be thrown back into the brand banks, from whence they had been issued and these banks would be compelled to make an entirely new issue of notes, payable in cash, at each of these cities. The object of the bill was one which he had no doubt, all their lordships wished to support, but its provisions were no framed exactly as they should be; and when it came into the committee, some better means of attaining that object, hi thought might be discovered.
The Earl of Rosslynobserved, that a the bill now stood, it would nearly pu

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an end to the circulation of the bank of Ireland; for every note must be called in, and dated from the place at which it was issued. According to the construction which he was disposed to put on the provisions of this bill, he thought it would not reach the banks of Scotland. It was intended to prevent the issue of notes by agents; but as it was at present framed, it seemed to him that it could not prevent the re-issue of those old notes which might come into the hands of the agent, unless, indeed, it was intended to affix to this bill such a heavy penalty as would put an end to the free spirit of banking altogether. If, however, the construction which his noble friend seemed to put on the bill was correct, it certainly would destroy the system of agency in Scotland. What effect it would produce with respect to agency in Ireland, he could not say; but he thought that with regard to that subject, their lordships had created a difficulty which this bill would not remedy.
Lord Melvillesaid, that though rather late in the day, he should now give notice of what he intended to move in the committee, instead of discussing the bill at the present moment. The noble marquis had supposed that Scotchmen would be unanimous in whatever they said on this measure. He believed that supposition would not be found to be quite correct; at least with respect to the question of what was fit to be done with regard to Scotland. But there certainly could be no division of opinion among them on a question of flagrant injustice. It was proposed to alter the Scotch system of banking, and to prohibit the circulation of all notes under 5l. That proposition had been referred to a committee, whose report could not be made for some time. Now, he could say positively, that all the banks in that part of the kingdom viewed the present bill with the utmost alarm. Their system might, perhaps, ultimately appear to be bad; but until that fact was established, he thought no alteration should be attempted; and he therefore hoped, that before their lordships passed this bill, they would make it a subject of inquiry; at least with respect to the effects it might produce upon Scotland. Their lordships had already determined to inquire as to one part of the proposed alteration; and he thought they ought to extend their inquiry to another. The system was new in England, and they
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might do what they liked with it. He did not know much of Ireland; but as to Scotland, he would say, that if their lordships made any alteration in the present system, they would compel the great banks to remove their branch banks from the different parts of the country: and therefore they should examine well what was proposed, before they decided on adopting a measure of such vital importance to the interests of that country. He hoped that the noble marquis would not object to delay legislating for Scotland until after the inquiry now in progress had terminated.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that, after what had fallen from his noble friend, he had no further objection to urge to this bill. Still, however, he must declare that he thought the title one of the most defective that could have been chosen. It appeared to him to have no meaning whatever; and, as to the bill itself, he believed that, if it was brought into a court of law, it would be found to be of but little effect. He had no difficulty in saying, that if Ireland had not been a part of the United Kingdom, this bill would have had no existence. Its object was, to make all notes payable where they were issued. Now, an issue to an agent, or to a partner, was, in law, such an issue as to come within the words of this act; and as all the notes of the bank of Ireland were, in that sense of the word, issued in Dublin, they must always be payable there, and this act would, therefore, produce no difference in the matter. He thought he could make the act more effective in this respect; but then he wished to know whether, to gain such an object, their lordships were prepared to run their heads against a greater evil? The Dublin bank had branch banks at Sligo and Belfast. Now, suppose he had business at Sligo, and received from the bank there, notes issued from the Belfast bank for a sum of 5,000 l. These notes could not, if this bill was to pass, be made available at Sligo, but must be returned to Belfast for the purpose of being converted into cash. The late discussions had taught parliament some things in the management of the banking business, of which they were before ignorant. One of these was the fact, that the agents of the Belfast bank distributed the notes of that bank at fairs, for the accommodation of the people. Now this practice must cease altogether, if the notes were to be

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made payable at the place where they were issued. The effect of this bill would be, to make the branch banks act in rivalry of each other, instead of affording mutual support; and surely such a course would be a matter of greater grievance than the object proposed would be of benefit. The consequence in Scotland would be, that there would be no branch banks except in Glasgow, or in one or two other principal towns, which, however great in themselves, were immaterial when compared to the country at large. The noble marquis had said, that if this act was passed, no respectable banker would attempt to circulate his notes in any place in which he did not intend to make them payable; but surely that was little recommendation, since it was less the object of all laws to afford a guide to respectable men, than to compel men who were not respectable to act with propriety and correctness; or, in other words, laws were not usually made for good, but for bad men.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that at the first blush of the question he had thought this bill was a very proper measure; but, on further consideration, he felt some objections to it. He was inclined to adopt the same course which had been taken by the noble lord, who had recommended examination and inquiry. Noble lords from his own part of the United Kingdom were not generally so united as those who owned Scotland for their birthplace. He should therefore feel inclined to enlist under their banners, and take refuge behind the sanitary cordon which the latter had attempted to establish. He thought the present measure ought not to be precipitated. Examination ought to be afforded, and that examination ought to be instituted with respect to Ireland as well as Scotland.
Lord Kingobserved, that this bill was introduced to prevent disreputable practices, but it unfortunately extended to Scotland, and consequently it had the whole body of Scotch lords on their legs to oppose it. It put him in mind of a passage in Mr. Burke's celebrated speech on economical reform, in which he stated that lord Talbot had attempted to reform the king's household, but that the measure was defeated, because the king's scullion was a member of parliament. So, here, he found that all attempts at putting an end to the disreputable practice would be frustrated, because some
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Scotch banker happened to be a member of parliament.
The Earl of Caledonhoped the noble marquis would persevere in his motion. He saw nothing to prevent the House from going on, even whilst an inquiry was taking place.
Lord Clifdenthought that, as the measure had for its object the restriction of paper issues, it ought to be adopted. He had seen the bad effects of the present system in Ireland; and, if bank notes-there were to be payable only in Dublin, the same evils might occur again. It was not men of fortune, but the lower orders who would be the sufferers. He believed, however, that, owing to the misery lately endured, the inhabitants at large would only have gold; and if so the evil would thus effect its own cure.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought the object contemplated by this bill a most desirable one, and he would, therefore, vote for its second reading; but then a great many difficulties presented themselves, and the House must take care that, in trying to remove one evil, they did not fall upon another. He would, therefore, suggest to the noble marquis the expediency of allowing a longer period to elapse than usual, before the bill was committed. He was in expectation of receiving important information on this subject next week; and the discussion, which the bill relating to provincial banks was undergoing in the other House, might also throw additional light on this subject. Under these circumstances he would vote for the second reading to-day, and suggest that the motion for referring it to a committee be fixed for Tuesday week.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, in explanation, that he intended the bill to have a prospective effect, and he though the period from which it should come into operation, should be the 10th of October. With regard to the technical objection raised by a noble earl, he could state, that he had taken the advice of lawyers, who assured him that it was fully adequate to effect the object for which it was intended. He would avail himself of the suggestion of the noble earl opposite, and fix the committee for Tuesday se'nnight.
The bill was then read a second time.