HL Deb 17 May 1825 vol 13 cc649-62

Numerous petitions, both for and against granting the claims of the Roman Catholics were presented to the House. The Lord Chancellor having presented a petition against the Catholic Claims from the congregation of Percy-street chapel,

Lord King

said, he could not forbear stating how this petition had been got up. He was informed, on respectable authority, that the minister of Percy-street chapel had addressed his congregation before the conclusion of the service, and told them that a petition was lying in the vestry for signature, and as the House of Peers was influenced by numbers, he recommended all the females to sign it. The clergy, it was said, had taken a religious view of this subject; but if this were true, they indeed took a religious view of it, and mixed it up with divine service, leaving to their congregation, along with other doctrines, to mark, learn, and inwardly digest it.

The Bishop of London

vindicated the minister of Percy-street chapel. The subject had been communicated to him, and, he had not found any reason to censure the clergyman. All who knew him were persuaded that a more worthy and pious man did not exist.

The Lord Chancellor

said, that as the right reverend prelate was satisfied with the conduct of the minister of Percy- street chapel, he hoped the noble lord would not be dissatisfied with his proceeding.

The Earl of Carnarvon

rose to express his astonishment at the conduct of this minister, and to say, that if such a proceeding were to be adopted as a precedent—if clergymen were on all questions of political importance—or of divided opinion—to mention them in the pulpit, and mingle them up with the service of religion, all respect for the established church would cease. He did expect, when the subject was alluded to, that the right reverend prelate would have expressed his disapprobation of the proceeding; but to his astonishment and dismay, the right reverend prelate had excused the clergyman, coupled his excuse with a panegyric on the man, and added reasons of his own in vindication of the proceeding. If political questions were to be mingled with the worship of God—if the clergy were to enter upon political disquisitions in the pulpit—they might expect that some individuals in their congregation should reply to them; brawling would ensue, and the place of worship would be turned into a debating society. If the bishops did not feel ashamed of such conduct, it was the more necessary for their lordships to take the regulation of the church into their own hands, and rescue it from that ruin which the neglect of its professed guardians seemed to threaten it with. The clergy had taken an active part in getting up the petitions against the measure. At first a few petitions came in from the archdeaconries; afterwards there came a few from the clergymen and some of their parishioners; and at length, growing more bold, they procured a few from the great cities of the empire. This capital, which had formerly been almost roused to sedition and rebellion by the mention of the subject, had been perfectly quiescent, or, as far as its opinion bad been exposed, was in favour of the measure. He hoped the learned prelate would say one word deprecating such conduct.

The Bishop of London

said, he was not, called on by any thing which had happened, to censure the minister. He had not introduced any political discussion into the pulpit. As to the quiescence o, the capital, he could only say that he had presented several petitions front different parishes of it, against the measure. Had he used any influence, or taken an active part, he could have covered their lordships' table with petitions.

Earl Spencer

said, he had a high respect for the right reverend prelate, but he could not sit still, and hear him say that he was not called on to censure the minister for conduct so very disgraceful and shameful. He had heard yesterday of the proceedings of the minister, and had felt shocked at them; but he was still more shocked by what he had just heard. If the clergy of the established church were to be allowed to give notice from the pulpit, and in the body of their sermons—[cry of no, no!] He had understood in the body of the sermon. The minister gave the notice of the petition at the end of the sermon, but before pronouncing the blessing with which every sermon concluded. This aggravated the case; and he should be glad to hear that his information was incorrect. He was sure no sincere friend, to the church of England, could approve of such conduct. This was the first time he had heard of such a circumstance, and he hoped it would be the last.

Lord Rolle

said, the Catholic priests always addressed their flocks from the altar, and the greater part of them for the purpose of inflaming their flocks against the Protestants.

Lord Clifden

said, the noble lord was grossly misinformed. The Catholic priests did not urge their flocks against the Protestants. There never was a grosser calumny. The Protestant clergy, indeed, had not set them a very good example, for they had endeavoured to light up a flame; and they might have succeeded, but they found a flame already lighted up by the two shillings and ninepence, levied in London under a statute of that tyrant Henry 8th. An old friend of his late majesty, lord Barrington, used to say, that, whenever a parson talked politics in the pulpit he ought to have his ears fastened to the altar.

The Archbishop of Canterbury

said, he had before heard nothing of this. He mightly disapproved of the conduct of the minister, it was both irregular and improper.

Lord Calthorpe

presented a petition from Birmingham, in favour of the measure. He was sure the great majority of all the well-educated classes of the community, except the clergy, were in favour of the measure.

The Marquis of Downshire

presented a petition from the Protestant inhabitants of Belfast, in favour of the measure. He would take the liberty of saying that, unless the disqualifying statutes against the Catholics were repealed, it was scarcely possible that Ireland could remain an integral part of the empire; and certainly until then no capital from England could flow into Ireland.

The Bishop of London

presented a petition from the parish of Hornsey, in the county of Middlesex, against time bill.

The Marquis of Londonderry

presented a petition from Darlington against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. His lordship said, he would avail himself of that opportunity to deliver his sentiments on the important subject which was soon to occupy their lordships' attention. He preferred delivering his sentiments then to waiting until those who were better qualified than himself to speak should be induced to come forward on the regular question. Having been bred up in the principles of that beloved relative whose estates in Ireland he now inherited, the House would probably forgive him for avowing those opinions at a moment when, in obedience to his parliamentary duty, he was presenting a petition that was contrary to those opinions. Their lordships would also forgive him for saying, that as he knew the sentiments of that statesman, who was one of the most efficient and honest that ever the country possessed—as he knew them better than almost any other individual—he was able to state, that of all questions, this was the one which he was most anxious to see brought to a happy termination. It was a matter of deep regret with him through the whole of his political life, that he had not been able to accomplish what he had so much desired, with respect to that question. When under the direction of that great man, Mr. Pitt, he undertook to propose the question of a union with Ireland, the confident impression on his mind was, that, without the concurrence of the Catholics, the success of such a measure was impossible. Having communicated that conviction to the government here, an understanding was entered into, which, if it did not amount to a positive pledge, was something so near it, that parliament was bound to redeem it. This he knew to be the opinion of his noble relation, and he hoped that his mind still so far actuated the cabinet of England, as to lead them to take the same view of the subject.

Lord Dudley and Ward

presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters o the town of Dudley, in favour of the bill His lordship observed, that though he regretted, he was not surprised, to see the clergy of the established church presenting petitions against their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, but it filled him both with surprise and disgust, when he sale Dissenters petitioning against the extension of that toleration to others, which was extended to themselves, and therefore he felt happy in presenting the present petition, as being more worthy a their character, and of the times in which they lived.

The Duke of Sussex

said, he had a petition to present to their lordships in favour of the bill, which though not very numerously signed, contained some respectable names that must have an influence upon any assembly. The opinions of the petitioners perfectly conincided with his own. The persons who had signed it had none of them changed one religion for another. They were, the archdeacon of Sudbury, and three other eminent persons, with whom he was intimately connected. His right reverend friend the bishop of Norwich, could bear witness to the respectability of the signatures.

The Marquis of Lansdown

presented a petition from several members of the universities of Cambridge and Oxford, in favour of the Catholic claims. It was signed, he said, by two heads of colleges, a majority of the professors, and 80 or 90 other members of Cambridge university; but it was not so numerously signed by members of the other university, because the petition could only receive the signatures of such of the latter as were in London, there not having been time to send it to Oxford. Connected as he was with the university of Cambridge, it was with the greatest gratification that he beheld attached to this petition the names of the professor of Greek, of Arabic, of geology, of anatomy, of astronomy, in short of all that was distinguished for learning and enlightened talent in that great university, thus giving a bright example of liberality to the country.—The noble marquis presented a second petition, to the same effect, signed by 100 graduates of Oxford and Cambridge. His lordship then sated, that he had to present another petition, which possessed strong claims on the attention of the House. Their lordships would remem- ber, that a short time ago he presented a petition from Dublin, signed by several Protestant peers, bankers, merchants, and others, praying that relief might be extended to their Catholic fellow-subjects. The petition he now held in his hand, which was to the same effect, contained the signatures of a great many individuals of property who had been prevented from putting their names to the former. It was signed by ten Protestant peers, who were not peers of that House, and by a great number of bankers, merchants, and landed proprietors, not members of either House of parliament; and it might be taken as representing the sentiments of the great bulk of property in Ireland—the noble marquis also presented a petition signed by 7,000 members of the established church, inhabitants of Liverpool, who represented property to the amount of six millions sterling, praying that the Catholic claims might be conceded.

The Duke of Devonshire

said:—My lords, I rise for the purpose of presenting to your lordships two petitions in favour of the bill now pending in this House, it favour of the Roman Catholics. The first is from the Protestant inhabitants of the county of Waterford; the other is from the inhabitants of the town of Bandon, in the county of Cork. My lords, the petitioners in both cases humbly pray that your lordships will be graciously pleased to remove the disabilities under their Roman Catholic fellow subjects at present labour. They pray this, first, because they conceive that no religious opinions ought to operate as a ground of exclusion from political rights and privileges; and secondly, they pray it as the only means by which permanent peace and prosperity can be diffused throughout Ireland. My lords, the petition from Waterford is signed by a, large majority of the Protestants of that county, and may be fairly considered as expressive of the opinion of all the Protestants most distinguished for rank and property in that part of the country. The other petition is, as I have already stated, from the Protestant inhabitants of a town heretofore distinguished for its hostility to the claims of the Roman Catholics, and yet such is the liberal and enlightened feeling which prevails, that the most opulent and leading Protestants of that town come forward and beseech your lordships to remove those disqualifications under which the Catholics have so long and so unjustly la- boured. My lords, we have every day fresh, and convincing proofs of the change of opinion which prevails in Ireland upon this vital question. Your lordships have been called upon by petition after petition (coming, too, from the former opponents of the question), to abolish those odious distinctions which separate Protestant from Catholic, and by a timely and salutary concession, to conciliate that hitherto divided and unhappy country. Your lordships must be aware that this call is made upon you, not by any sect or party, but by the great body of the people of Ireland. You have all classes and all persuasions imploring you to give your sanction to that just as well as politic and healing measure, which has been adopted by the other House of parliament; and let me ask, will your lordships venture to refuse the prayer of an entire nation? If any danger is apprehended from granting the claims of the Roman Catholics, I ask by whom is it apprehended? Is it apprehended by the population of England, who are essentially Protestant? Surely no noble lord who hears me will venture to make such an assertion. Is it apprehended by the Protestants of Ireland, who are but few in number compared with the Roman Catholics? Why, my lords, that it is not is proved to you beyond a possibility of doubt, by the petitions of the leading Protestant noblemen, landowners, merchants, and gentry of that country. Then, my lords, when you find that no danger is to be apprehended in England—when you find that the Protestants of Ireland anxiously seek to have their Catholic fellow-subjects elevated to their political level—nay more, when you hear them state, that upon the carrying of this measure depend the peace and prosperity of Ireland—and when, in addition to all this, you take into consideration the justice as well as the expediency of the measure itself, how, I ask, can your lordships refuse your assent to this Bill? For twenty-five long years has this question been agitated in parliament; and, during that period, it has been the advocacy of the most able and enlightened senators of our times. The measure has been repeatedly lost; but it has, notwithstanding, been progressively gaining friends and supporters, both in Ireland and this country. Year after year has it gone on, making converts of the wealthiest and most intelligent men in the empire. And I say, my lords, that it is a question which must not be allowed to sleep. The present moment is, in my opinion, the most favourable that can be selected. We are at peace with all the world, Ireland, as well as this country, is not only tranquil, but increasing in prosperity. You have, in addition, the petitions of a great portion of the people in favour of the measure, but, above all, you have the vote of the other House of parliament in its favour. Let me then, adopting the prayer of the numerous petitions which have been laid on the table, implore your lordships to complete the good work which has been so auspiciously begun: let me implore you to give, by your decision to-night, that peace and tranquillity to Ireland, which she never can otherwise permanently enjoy. If you neglect the opportunity which is now offered to you, who will venture to say that concession may not come too late? I call upon your lordships to remove those disabilities which have hitherto been a stain noon the history of Ireland, and a disgrace to this country. If you neglect the present opportunity, upon your lordships' heads be the responsibility. The question may be lost to-night, but the clay cannot be far distant when it must be carried. What noble lord will venture to say, that the Roman Catholics can be permanently excluded from the privileges of the Constitution. No one will venture such an assertion; and if so, why not at once do that which is not only an act of justice in itself, but comes recommended to you as an act of wise and sound policy by the enlightened Protestants of Ireland? My lords, I heartily rejoice at finding that the introduction of this great question is in the hands of those who are so fully adequate to its support, and can only add, that it shall have my most cordial and anxious support. Upon the decision to which your lordships shall come to-night the fate of Ireland depends. I sincerely hope that that decision may be such as to do credit to ourselves, and to wipe out the stain which has been cast on our national character, by the removal of a set of unnecessary, and, therefore unjust, restrictions. I trust that we shall, by out vote to-night, unite the whole country in peace, tranquillity, and unanimity of feeling.

Earl Grey ,

after presenting several petitions in favour of the Roman Catholic claims, said:—I have now, my lords, to present to this House a petition of a similar description,. which has attached to it the signatures of the duke of Norfolk, and the other Roman Catholic peers, the signatures of the Roman Catholic prelates and clergy, and also of the ancient Roman Catholic gentry of this kingdom. This petition is, as I am informed, signed by upwards of thirty thousand individuals, many of them of the very highest rank, character, and respectability; and they pray the repeal of those disqualifying laws and regulations, to which, for no fault of theirs, they have been so long and so unjustly subjected. They complain that these restrictive measures have been continued in force against them upon no other ground than their belief in a particular creed, which it did not depend on their will to change; and that upon that ground only are they excluded from a participation in the blessings of the British constitution. My lords, the petitioners address you with the utmost respect; but they address you with dignified firmness—they address you in the tone of men who are suffering under disabilities which they entertain a proud consciousness of not deserving—they address you in the tone of men who feel that they are deserving of a participation in all the blessings and privileges of the constitution; and they tell you mildly, but firmly, that while their disabilities continue, they will never cease to complain. They appeal to their past conduct as a contradiction to the foul aspersions with which they have been assailed. They challenge your inspection of that conduct: and they proudly assert, that their claim to an equality of rights and privileges with their Protestant brethren is it controvertible. They call upon you to inquire into their principles; they invite you to inspect the morality of their conduct, and the propriety with which they discharge their social duties. They boldly assert that they have ever been distinguished for as active and disinterested a zeal for the rights and liberties of this country (unless, indeed, where they have been impeded by the impolitic and jealous spirit of the laws) as the most loyal of their Protestant fellow-subjects. My lords, they not only do this, but they repel, as unjust and totally unfounded, those charges, which impute to their religious opinions, any thing unconstitutional, or in any wise contrary to subordination and good government. But, my lords, they go further; they refer your lordships to that period of our history, when their Catholic ancestors made the most powerful and decided stand against Papal usurpation. They call your attention to those exertions of their Catholic ancestors, which achieved some of the dearest and most valuable privileges of Englishmen. They broadly assert, backed by such authorities, that there is nothing in the character or tenets of the Roman Catholic religion which ought to exclude them from the full enjoyment of their civil rights and privileges. And, in proof of this assertion, they call your attention to the modern history of different countries around you. Look at Switzerland, a country consisting of Protestant and Catholic cantons (and the latter, by the way, not the least remarkable for the liberality of their institutions) there the people are bound together by one bond of amity, and differences on the ground of religion are unknown amongst them. Look at France—there you find that a Catholic sovereign has granted an equality of rights and privileges to his Protestant subjects. Look at the Netherlands—there you will find that several Protestant states are united under one government with the Catholic provinces formerly under the dominion of Austria; and there all enjoy an equality of rights and privileges, and that, too, under the special sanction of the king of Great Britain. In Hanover, also, under the auspices of the same beneficent sovereign, there exists no civil disqualification on the ground of religious opinions. In Canada, not the least important of our possessions, the established religion is the Roman Catholic, and yet no inconvenience, no disaffection, no ground of civil disqualification, is found to exist. In the United States of America, a country which has advanced in civilization and prosperity with a rapidity almost surpassing belief; the business of the state is not only not impeded but facilitated by the total extinction of all predominance of sect or religion. That great and increasing power has been peculiarly careful to avoid giving encouragement on the one hand, or of holding out disqualification on the other, on the ground of religious opinions; and by so doing, she has succeeded in raising herself to her present pitch of greatness and glory. —My lords, the Roman Catholics, whose petition I have had the honour to present, repel with indignation such foul and false aspersions as those which have been attempted to be cast upon them by petitions such as that presented to the House tonight. A petition which came, as I understand, from a person who was once a clergyman of the Roman Catholic church, but who is now described to be a reverend divine of the church of England. The Roman Catholics, I say, deny the charges thus attempted to be cast upon them, and assert, that they are as ready as their Protestant brethren can be, to stand forward in defence of the Crown and constitution of these realms, against the attacks of any foreign prince, potentate, or power, that may assail them [hear, hear, hear!]. Upon these grounds they once more, and with undiminished hope, implore your lordships to take into your consideration the justice of their claims; and I, my lords, beg to add my prayer to theirs, and at the same time to remind you of the danger with which your refusal to do so may be attended. It is in vain to tell me Ireland can much longer be excluded from the pale of the constitution. Reflect then, I beseech you, upon the inexpediency of not doing that now, which it is evident you will be obliged to do ere long. The petition which I have just presented to your lordships comes from a set of persons who have been described by the noble lord Opposite as most peaceable and loyal subjects, and who so distinguished themselves at a period of danger and distress. The measure which it supports comes recommended to you by the leading Protestants of the sister country. They tell you that they anticipate danger, not from the bill being carried, but from its being refused. This opinion has been powerfully impressed upon your lordships by the noble duke who has just presented some petitions in favour of the bill. It comes recommended to you by the vote of the House of Commons, who have now, for the second time, sent the bill up to your lordships. And it should be recollected that the feelings of the House of Commons, at a period like the present, are no bad criterion of the feelings of the country; for a general election being at hand, it is not likely that they would act in direct opposition to the opinions and wishes of their constituents. Some noble lords have endeavoured to prove by the petitions which have been sent to this House, that the feeling of the country was against the measure, while others have attempted to detract from the weight of those petitions, by describing the characters of the persons who originated them, and the means by which they had been got up. It is not my intention to decide between these conflicting opinions, but this I may venture to say, that from all I have been able to learn personally; from all 1 have been able to collect from those whom I conceived to be best informed on the subject, and taking into consideration, that not one county meeting has been called by the opponents of the measure—that hardly any great town has petitioned against it; or, at least, that we have had no petition from any great town without having an opposite petition from the same place; taking into consideration, too, that where-ever a meeting has been called against the measure, it has ended by adopting Resolutions in its favour; I say, my lords, taking all these things into consideration, I have a right to conclude, that if the sense of the country be not strongly in favour of the Roman Catholics, it is not hostile to their claims [loud cries of hear, hear!]. I have a right to conclude that the terror and alarm, at one time so prevalent in this country, have subsided; and that had we a ministry who were not divided on the question [load cries of hear, hear!]; had we not a ministry whose opinions are so much at variance that they abandon their duty, and leave the management of affairs to a kind of chance-medley [hear, hear!], it would be found that our difficulties would vanish, that our obstacles would be removed, and that this great measure of policy and justice, this act of benevolence and favour, would be passed into a law, and would at once and for ever set at rest those jealousies and disquietudes which at present exist; and we should find in their place that mutual good will and Christian charity which it is the wish of every good man to see established in society [hear, hear, hear!]. We should then have a set, of men worshipping their God, perhaps in a different form, but certainly upon the same great Christian principle [hear, hear, hear!]. My lords, I have every respect for the right reverend bench of bishops; I believe them to be a set of pious men, who would not utter that which they did not believe to be true; but, from their rank and station in society, their feelings and opinions upon this question, must necessarily be known; and, my lords, we are all aware that there are not wanting those who would seek to recommend themselves by the getting up of such petitions as those which have been presented to your lordships against the claims of tho Roman Catholics [hear, hear!]. Be this as it may, we know that active endeavours have been made to get up such petitions; we know, too, that in a great many instances, the promoters of a great many of those petitions were unsuccessful [hear, hear!]; that they should continue to be unsuccessful it would, perhaps, be presumptuous in me to state, but if they do continue their efforts, and succeed in them, I feel convinced that they will be productive of the most fatal effects, as they will revive those animosities and angry feelings which are now extinguished and buried in oblivion [hear, hear!]. That they may fail in their efforts is my most sincere and heartfelt wish; that they have already failed in numerous instances, I am firmly convinced. Let me implore your lordships to act upon the recommendation of the noble duke who has preceded me; let me implore you to conciliate Ireland by the adoption of this measure. If you do so, instead of a mere union of law, you will establish a union of interests and affections [loud cries of hear, hear!]. I find that every noble lord around me opposes this question as a question of time. That it must be carried at no distant period is beyond all doubt. But let me ask, is it possible that any period can be more favourable than the present [hear, hear!]? And. if this be conceded to me, let me ask who will take upon himself the responsibility of refusal and delay? The noble duke has told you, that the present moment is favourable; he has told you too, and truly told you, that yet a little while and it may be no longer so. Let me beseech your lordships to attend to this warning, and to do, while it is yet time, that which is recommended to you equally by policy and by justice [hear, hear, hear!]. If you do not grant these concessions now, the period may not be far distant when you will offer them, but offer them in vain [hear!]. The present times are prosperous, but, my lords, all human prosperity is frail and fleeting. True it is, that we are at this moment prosperous, but who is there that does not perceive certain clouds rising above the political horizon, which ought to induce a wise and cautious legislature to prepare for the coming storm [loud cries of hear, hear, hear!]? You may at present, without the slightest suspicion, grant to the Roman Catholics, as a matter of grace and favour, every thing which they seek at your hands; but refuse them at present, with a little longer, and you will bring into play those passions and angry feelings which men, deprived of their rights, are apt to entertain: you will do to Ireland that, which at a former period you did to America, but God grant that it may be without a similar separation, and God grant too that it may be without producing other effects not so easily remedied as were the disasters of the American war. My lords, I move that this petition be brought up and read. The petition, which was of extraordinary dimensions, was read and laid on the table.