Lords Sitting of 23 June 1825

JUDGES' SALARIES BILL.
The Earl of Liverpoolin rising to move the second reading of this bill, said it was one of several bills relating to the same subject, and which he would move should be read separately. The first bill which he should notice was one for abolishing the sale of offices in the court of King's-bench, it being thought more advisable that a regulated

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salary should be given in lieu of all emoluments whatever. At the same time, the bill made provision for existing vested interests, while it abolished not only all sale of offices, but all sinecures prospectively. The main object was, to do away with fees altogether, and to give salaries to the judges suited to the duties they had to perform. The chief justice of the King's-bench was to have 10,000 l. a-year; the chief justice of the Common Pleas 8,000 l.; the chief baron of the Exchequer 7,000 l.; the master of the Rolls 7,000 l.; and the Vice-chancellor 6,000 l. With respect to the puisne judges, it was obvious that they ought to be remunerated according to the rank they had to sustain, and therefore 5,500 l. a-year was deemed an adequate provision. It was necessary to look for persons to fill the situation of judges who had a respectable business at the bar, and who were not too far advanced in years to discharge the important duties that devolved upon them.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he approved of the bill, as it did away the sale of offices, which, as a mode of paying the judges, he thought very objectionable. It tended to affect the situations of those eminent officers, and the better plan certainly was, to give them a simple salary. Another great object provided for by this bill was, to raise the salaries of the puisne judges to an amount adequate to the rank they held. But, upon this point, he had heard different opinions expressed; for it was thought by many, that by this bill the salaries were somewhat too low, and the retired allowances were somewhat too high. A principal consideration should be, to induce the most distinguished lawyers to accept those situations freely, by rendering it worth their while to do so. At the same time, it was not proper that any office should be over-paid; for, in that case, it became an object of political solicitation; the effect of which was to degrade the office, instead of raising it in the public estimation. He found it asserted in a work, published some time ago by M. Cottu, a French writer, that the government of this country were inexorable in demanding the most precise political opinions from those who were appointed as judges. If this was so, it was a great misfortune; and though no such subserviency was observable in the conduct of the judges, yet their lordships must see, that to hold out high inducements tended to it. With respect to the Welch judges, the
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object seemed to be, to make them entirely dependent on the government, or on parliamentary influence; than which nothing could be more improper. The salaries they received were low, and their numbers were large, while the individuals themselves were always left open to political temptation. He did not know why, when a general system of assimilation was pursued in the collection of the Customs and Excise, and in all regulations for trade, that the same principle should not be extended to the judicature in Wales. It could not be advisable, that justice in the remote provinces should be different from justice in the capital. The bill passed last session, for regulating the Welch judicature, had been completely inefficient. More than one-half of the business at Carmarthen at the last assizes had been left undone for want of efficient means for executing it. This was an additional reason why their lordships should take the state of the judicature in Wales into their consideration.
Lord Ellenboroughthought this bill altogether inefficacious for the ends proposed. With respect to fees, those in the office he held, which was the highest in the court of King's-bench, were as small now, if not smaller, than they were two hundred years ago. He denied that this bill provided an adequate remuneration for the chief justice of the court of King's-bench. The higher offices in that court had never been sold; though, as there was no objection to the sale of an advowson to a living, there ought not, in his opinion, to be any objection to the sale of a ministerial office. There could be no reason for lowering, as this bill did, the proportion which the salary of the chief justice had previously borne to the salaries of the puisne judges. It was desirable, in many instances, that the chief justice of the court of King's-bench should be a member of that House; but no man could in prudence accept a peerage who had only a salary of 10,000 l.. a-year to depend upon, independently of what he might have saved, which could not be very considerable. The remuneration of the chief justice, according to the existing system, was in proportion to the business done in his court; but, by the new arrangement, there was no inducement to exertion; and though he was far from supposing that this consideration would operate with the present distinguished head of that court, it might have its effect upon his successors; the

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consequence of which must cause business to get into arrear, and call for an addition to the number of the judges. The puisne judges received 5,500 l. a-year salary, and 3,500 l. pension; while the salary of the chief justice was only 10,000 l. a-year, and his pension 4,000 l.; which was by no means in proportion to the provision made for the puisne judges. He thought all these bills had been got up in a very clumsy manner, and that the advantage which the public would derive from them would be inconsiderable and remote.
The Earl of Liverpoolexplained, that after the passing of the bill, no office was to be sold; but it was never intended to have a retrospective effect on those offices which had already been sold. There were two modes of proceeding in dealing with vested interests: they might be bought up, or they might be allowed to expire. Either of these was equally just; but if the government had bought up these vested interests, it might have given rise to many disputes. It was therefore thought better to allow these interests to expire. As to the salary of the judges, it was the general feeling of the country that they should not be rewarded by the sale of offices. That mode had, indeed, been sanctioned by long practice, and he would not say it was wrong at the time it was adopted; but now, when the courts were to be re-modelled, it was the general opinion, in which he concurred, that the judges should not be paid by the unseemly practice of selling offices. As to what the noble lord said about the salary of the chief justice, the question was, what could be considered as a fair remuneration for the chief justice, taking into consideration the dignity of his office, and the duties he had to perform? And he thought 10,000 l.. a-year not too much; but he also thought, with the patronage still attached to it, that this sum was sufficient. When he looked also at the labours of the puisne judges, and that they had to go circuits twice a-year, he could not think that their salary of 5,500 l. was too much. He agreed, that these offices should not be over-paid; but he did not think this sum was more than sufficient to induce the best class of barristers to accept the situation, and enable them to maintain the respect due to their rank.
Lord Cawdorrose to complain of the little which had been done to remedy the evils of the system of Welch judicature. As long ago as 1798, the House of Com-
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mons had recommended that the number of the Welch judges should be decreased, and their salaries increased.
The Lord Chancellorexpressed his satisfaction, that the sale of places in the courts of law was now to be prohibited. He was convinced, that it was far better, in principle, to pay the chief justices by a fixed salary. Not that he supposed that the chief justices had ever made an improper use of this power to dispose of offices: he was convinced they had not; but it was proper that the people should be satisfied they had not; and they never would be satisfied of this, as long as the chief justices had any such power. It was necessary to keep the administration of justice clear of all suspicion. There was another reason why he was pleased with the abolition of the sale of offices. It often happened, that those who purchased offices opposed reforms in the courts, because they might operate to their prejudice. He believed that every chief justice was above attending to a consideration of this nature; but it was of importance that the public should be satisfied that they were, and there was no better way of accomplishing this, than by abolishing the sale of all offices. As to the puisne judges, they had done their duty, and he believed always would do their duty, though their salaries were ten times the amount. The great security for good conduct in the judges was, that the public view was constantly cast on them. Their lordships would, he thought, commit a great mistake were they to be niggardly in rewarding them. At present, gentlemen at the bar, who were only third-rate lawyers gained, and deservedly gained, more than the salaries of the puisne judges. He put it, therefore, to the good sense of their lordships, if the puisne judges should not be so paid as to enable the government to select them from among the gentlemen who were eminent at the bar. If they did not pay them well they would narrow their choice; and no man of eminence, while he was able to go through the fatigue of a barrister, would accept the situation of a puisne judge. As to the abolition of all sinecures, he was as desirous as any one among them for all sinecures to be abolished. The office which he had himself coveted most, and from which he had afterwards retired, namely, that of chief justice of the Common Pleas, did not produce him one-third of the income he receiv-

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ed while at the bar; and he could assure their lordships, that the office of chancellor of England did not produce one farthing more at the present day than it did upwards of a century ago. As for the offices in his gift, he should only say, that he was more sparing in the exercise of that privilege than many of his predecessors. It was only justice to the Welch judges to say, that where there was one writ of error from them, there were a hundred from the English judges, badly as they were paid.
The bills were then severally read a second time.