Lords Sitting of 10 February 1825

COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF IRELAND.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move the appointment of a committee to inquire into the State of Ireland in a more extended manner than the inquiry which took place last session. In doing this, he did not think it would be necessary for him to trouble their lordships with many words; but he should beg leave first to slate the general object of the motion, and the course of proceeding which he thought ought to be followed. Their lordships were aware, that last session a committee was appointed by their lordships, to inquire into the state of certain disturbed districts in Ireland, which were subject to the Insurrection act. The principal ground for appointing that committee was, to enable the House to judge of the necessity of continuing that act, and the inquiry was very properly confined to the counties which were then subject to the operation of the act; and likely to remain so. But, though the inquiry was, in point of form, limited as to

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locality, it was extended to many other subjects than the state of the disturbed districts; and, indeed, became almost general. The noble lords who composed that committee would do his majesty's government the justice to say, that no disposition was shown on their part to narrow the inquiry, and that a more convenient course of investigation could not have been pursued. In consequence of a question put the other night by the noble marquis opposite; namely, whether the powers of the committee proposed to be appointed would be such as to enable them to extend their investigation to the whole of Ireland; he had then answered, that he had no objection so to extend it; but that he meant to introduce some words into his motion which he thought it would be right for him now to state. Those words would, however, be introduced more with the view of directing the committee to the object of investigation, than from any wish to limit the inquiry. He would, therefore, move for a committee to inquire into the state of Ireland, and more particularly with regard to the circumstances which led to the disturbances in those parts of the kingdom which were the subject of inquiry last session. Under these terms, no fair subject of examination would be excluded. But, in thus appointing a committee to inquire into the actual state of Ireland, he certainly did not mean to refer to it that particular subject which was commonly called the Catholic question. That was a subject of too paramount importance to be consigned to an inquiry of this kind. It was competent for any member of their lordships' House to propose the discussion of that question; but he could not consent to its being specifically referred to a select committee, or to any committee which did not include every member of their lordships' House. It was, therefore, not with the view of having the Catholic question considered that he made the present motion. But, while he said this, it was not his intention to limit the inquiry, as to those facts which might relate to, or have a bearing on, the Catholic question. If there were facts connected with that question which, in the judgment of any noble lord, might throw light on the inquiry, he would not object to their being investigated. With regard to the composition of the committee, he should name for its members the same noble lords who composed the committee of last
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year, with the exception of some who were either absent or wished to be excused from attending. A noble friend of his who sat on the committee of last year, was absent on the continent, and he should therefore move to appoint lord Fitzgibbon in the room of the earl of Aberdeen; and as earl Fitzwilliam, on account of his age, did not wish to continue on the committee, he would propose in his stead, the duke of Devonshire.
The Earl of Darnleyreminded their lordships, that twelve months had not elapsed since he had, in vain, pleaded for that general inquiry into the state of Ireland which the noble earl now proposed. Upon that occasion the importance of the subject procured a very numerous attendance of their lordships, and his motion was negatived by a great majority; sixteen only having thought fit to support it. In stating this, he did not mean to claim the present motion as "his thunder." On the contrary, he assured their lordships, that he was perfectly well content to leave the thunder in the hands of the Jupiter who had undertaken to wield it. If, however, the noble earl meant to inquire into the state of Ireland without making the Catholic question his main object, and obtaining information respecting that question from those most capable of furnishing it, his inquiry would be useless. Their lordships would recollect, that when he brought forward last session the motion to which he had alluded, the Catholic question was the principal ground on which he founded it. Indeed, to overlook the Catholic question in an inquiry into the state of Ireland, was to imitate the strolling company who advertised the performance of the tragedy of Hamlet, with the part of Hamlet, for that night, omitted. The more their lordships examined the subject, the more would they be convinced that Ireland never could be satisfied, until the just claims of the Catholics were satisfied. It would be well for ministers now to look the question fairly in the face. He was not surprised that they wished to check the Catholic Association. That was only the consequence of their own neglect. If that body had become, as was said, dangerous to the state, the fault was theirs, who, in defiance of common sense and common justice, had uniformly refused to listen to the just claims of the Catholics.
The Marquis of Lansdowndid not rise to oppose the motion, which in so far as

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it proposed an inquiry into the state of Ireland, free from the limitation under which the inquiry of last session was undertaken, met his approbation. He wished to learn from the noble earl whether the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of education in Ireland was likely to be soon presented to the House. That was an inquiry of great importance; second only to that which the noble earl was about to institute.
The Earl of Liverpoolunderstood the report was in a state of considerable forwardness. He was anxious that the report should be presented as soon as possible; but from the great importance of the subject, he did not think it consistent with his duty to press for its completion with a haste which would not allow time for its proper digestion.
Lord Hollandbelieved there would be an unanimous vote in favour of the motion, but, considering that the noble earl had always shown himself so fastidiously critical on the subject of parliamentary inquiry, he could not help thinking it strange that the noble earl should consent to the present investigation, without assigning any reason for so extraordinary a change of opinion. Instead of laying any new ground for his motion, the noble earl had merely stated his disposition not to limit the inquiry. Now, their lordships would recollect, that many persons whose rank, wealth, talents, and intimate connexion with Ireland entitled their opinion to respect, had repeatedly urged the noble earl to agree to a general inquiry into the state of Ireland, but without success. A motion for that object, made by his noble friend last session, had been rejected; and the only inquiry to which the noble earl would consent, was one which was limited to the disturbed districts. The disturbances in those districts was then ground for inquiry; but now that their lordships had come to the present session, what did they learn?—that there was no disturbance at all: so that the only ground which the noble earl had for his former inquiry, was cut from him. But, upon looking further at the subject, we find there is one thing in the state of Ireland—the situation of the Catholics—one evil for which a remedy is required. Oh, he! we have got it now. Here is something to inquire about! "No," says the noble earl, "that is not to be inquired into. In appointing the committee, no reference must be made to that subject. Those laws which
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exclude from the constitution the great majority of the people of Ireland must not be looked into by the committee." The noble earl in his caution on this question, resembled Marc Antony, who gave licence to men's tongues on all his other faults, but not a word of Cleopatra. The noble earl was willing that the committee should take the state of Ireland fully into their consideration; but as for the Catholic question, on that they must not touch. He had admitted the existence of disease, but not a word must be said about the remedy. It could not but be confessed, however, that the inquiry, though late, was still acceptable. He rejoiced most sincerely at the appointment of the committee, because he was sure its labours must prove useful. It was true, the thing was unexpected. It was not easy to tell whence it came, and still more difficult to say whither it would go. The noble earl certainty could not say that it grew out of the committee last year, for it was a proposition of a different nature, and the ground on which that committee was appointed did not now exist. After all, it was, perhaps, intended, that the proceeding should be a kind of historical inquiry—an investigation into the causes of the late disturbances; for there were now no disturbances to inquire about. He acquiesced, however, most cordially, in the motion; for he believed it impossible to go into a general inquiry on the state of Ireland without seeing the necessity of including the Catholic question. Notwithstanding the noble earl's attempt at the exclusion of that question, he was glad the measure was proposed. The measure in itself was good, though the point of time was bad. It had come at last, it was true; but coming so late, the advantage to be expected from it was not so great as it might have been. It was the maxim of a great man of antiquity, that the whole art of war consisted in being in time; and in the same manner he would say, that the whole art of politics consisted in being in time. If the noble lord had consented to this inquiry in due time, much evil might have been prevented. The noble lord's conduct reminded him of what had been said of a man much given to procrastination—that he lost half an hour in the morning, and was running after it during the whole of the day. The noble earl, in the morning of his administration, had, with respect to this question, lost his half

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hour; and it could not now be recovered. Owing to this delay, to which the noble earl had prevailed on their lordships to consent, parliament had lost the proper opportunity for conciliation. A small concession might have been sufficient at first; but, as the season for conciliation had been allowed to pass away, much more must be done than was at first expected or desired.
The Earl of Harrowbywas persuaded that the noble baron had totally misunderstood his noble friend. The House would recollect that the last committee was not appointed for a general inquiry, but that the proposed renewal of the Insurrection act was the only reason for its institution. The intended measure rendered an inquiry necessary into the nature and extent of the disorders which appeared to call for the continuance of the act. There was far from being any difference of opinion between his majesty's ministers who had seats in that committee, and the other members who composed it, as to the extent of the inquiry. He and his noble friends did not attempt to confine the investigation to the geographical limits specified in the motion. There was no question of importance in the slate of Ireland, of which some evidence of its consideration was not to be found in the proceedings of that committee. In the very short report which was presented to the House, the committee stated, that they had not completed some points of their inquiry, and expressed a hope that the House would allow them to renew it. The House, then, in compliance with that recommendation, and the recommendation from higher authority contained in his majesty's Speech, were called on to renew the committee. As to his noble friend's observation on leaving out the Catholic question in his motion, their lordships would recollect that his noble friend had distinctly stated that he had no objection to the inquiry being so extended, that every fact bearing upon that question might be introduced; and he would on his own part state, that he had no objection to the introduction of evidence of opinions, for that would also be fact, as it would prove the existence of certain opinions held by certain persons. He, however, did not think that their lordships would do right to refer the question of Catholic emancipation to any committee.
Lord Kingthought this a very singular
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proceeding on the part of his majesty's ministers. They resembled empirics, who mixed up their medicine and administered it to the patient, before they had held any consultation. Nothing could be more ridiculous than this. They were now beating up the dose in the state mortar; but why not have the consultation first. Sometimes steel medicines were thought good for the disease, and sometimes opiates, but they were always administered before consultation. It was thought that there was one medicine—bark for instance—which could not fail to bring about a cure. Every body said, that bark ought to be tried; but the empirics declared that bark the patient should not have.
The motion was then agreed to.