HL Deb 03 February 1825 vol 12 cc1-31

This day the Session was opened by Commission. The Lords Commissioners were, Lord Chancellor Eldon, the archbishop of Canterbury, and the earls of Westmorland, Harrowby, and Shaftsbury. The usher of the black rod having been ordered to require the attendance of the House of Commons, he withdrew. In a few minutes after, the Speaker, accompanied by a considerable number of the members, having appeared at the bar, the lord chancellor opened the Session with the following Speech to both Houses:—

"My Lords and Gentlemen;

"We are commanded by His Majesty to express to you the gratification which His Majesty derives from the continuance and progressive increase of that public prosperity upon which his Majesty congratulated you at the opening of the last session of parliament.

"There never was a period in the history of this country, when all the great interests of the nation were at the same time in so thriving a condition, or when a feeling of content and satisfaction was more widely diffused through all classes of the British people.

"It is no small addition to the gratification of his Majesty, that Ireland is participating in the general prosperity. The outrages, for the suppression of which extraordinary powers were confided to his Majesty, have so far ceased, as to warrant the suspension of the exercise of those powers in most of the districts heretofore disturbed.

"Industry and commercial enterprise are extending themselves in that part of the United Kingdom. It is, therefore, the more to be regretted, that associations should exist in Ireland, which have adopted proceedings irreconcileable with the spirit of the Constitution, and calculated, by exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of society, and to retard the course of national improvement.

"His Majesty relies upon your wisdom to consider, without delay, the means of applying a remedy to this evil.

"His Majesty further recommends the renewal of the inquiries instituted last session into the state of Ireland.

"His Majesty has seen with regret the interruption of tranquillity in India, by the unprovoked aggression and extravagant pretensions of the Burmese Government, which rendered hostile operations, against that state unavoidable.

"It is, however, satisfactory to find, that none of the other native powers have manifested any unfriendly disposition, and that the bravery and conduct displayed by the forces already employed against the enemy, afford the most favourable prospect of a successful termination of the contest.

"Gentlemen of the House of Commons;

"His Majesty has directed us to inform you that the Estimates of the year will be forthwith laid before you.

"The state of India, and circumstances connected with other parts of his Majesty's foreign possessions, will render some augmentation in his military establishments indispensable.

"His majesty has, however, the sincere gratification of believing, that, notwithstanding the increase of expense arising out of this augmentation, such is the flourishing condition, and progressive improvement of the revenue, that it will still be in your power, without affecting public credit, to give additional facilities to the national industry, and to make a further reduction in the burthens of his people.

"My Lords and Gentlemen;

"His Majesty commands us to inform you, that his Majesty continues to receive from his Allies, and generally from all Princes and States, assurances of their unabated desire to maintain and cultivate the relations of peace with his Majesty, and with each other; and that it is his Majesty's constant endeavour to preserve the general tranquillity.

"The negotiations which have been so long carried on through his Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople, between the Emperor of Russia and the Ottoman Porte, have been brought to an amicable issue.

"His Majesty has directed to be laid before you, copies of arrangements which have been entered into with the kingdoms of Denmark and Hanover, for improving the commercial intercourse between those States and the United kingdom.

"A treaty, having for its object the more effectual suppression of the slave-trade, has been concluded between his Majesty and the king of Sweden, a copy of which treaty (as soon as the ratifications thereof shall have been exchanged) his Majesty has directed to be laid before you.

"Some difficulties have arisen with respect to the ratification of the treaty for the same object which was negociated last year between his Majesty and the United States of America.

"These difficulties, however, his Majesty trusts, will not finally impede the conclusion of so beneficial an arrangement.

"In conformity with the declarations which have been repeatedly made by his Majesty, his Majesty has taken measures for confirming by treaties the commercial relations already subsisting between this kingdom, and those countries of America which appear to have established then-separation from Spain.

"So soon as these treaties shall be completed, his Majesty will direct copies of them to be laid before you.

"His Majesty commands us not to conclude without congratulating you upon the continued improvement in the state of the agricultural interest, the solid foundation of our national prosperity; nor without informing you, that evident advantage has been derived from the relief which you have recently given to commerce by the removal of inconvenient restrictions.

"His Majesty recommends to you to persevere (as circumstances may allow) in the removal of similar restrictions; and his Majesty directs us to assure you, that you may rely upon his Majesty's cordial co-operation in fostering and extending that commerce, which, whilst it is, under the blessing of Providence, a main source of strength and power to this country, contributes in no less a degree to the happiness and civilization of mankind."

The Commons then withdrew. After which, the Speech being again read by the Lord Chancellor, and also by the Clerk at the Table,

Viscount Dudley and Ward

observed, that in rising to move an humble Address to his Majesty, in answer to his gracious Speech, he trusted that any apology was rendered less necessary by the advantageous circumstances under which he had undertaken this task. For a long period those who stood in his situation had to ask their lordships to support the Crown in an anxious, doubtful, and protracted struggle, and in which success itself was purchased by severe sacrifices; and sometimes even to apologise for measures which, until the causes of them were fully understood, were of a nature not only to make us despond of the event of the war, but even to shake the public confidence in the wisdom of those by whom it was conducted. At a later period, and after a series of astonishing successes terminated in a triumphant peace, it was their equally difficult and still more irksome task, to entreat their lordships to set an example of patience under those embarrassments, agricultural and commercial, in which they so largely shared; and which, from whatever cause they flowed, so long obstructed the benefits of restored tranquillity, and were the more severely felt, because it was impossible to foresee them in their full extent and duration. These were tasks which required both confidence and ability. He had no such sacrifices to ask; no such hard lessons to teach. After more than thirty years of effort and endurance, it was his good fortune to ask their lordships to carry to the foot of the Throne their unmixed, and, he hoped, their unanimous congratulation, upon a state of prosperity, such as he believed was unequalled in this country, and had never been surpassed in any country and in any age. Peace, indeed, had crowned England with glory, and secured to her the highest place among the nations of the world; but still there remained that long period of exhaustion and derangement; and it was only now that, refreshed as it were from the toils of victory, she enjoyed the full reward of all she had acted, and of all she had suffered. His majesty's government, his parliament, and his people, now reaped, in honour and in repose, all that they had sown in courage, in constancy, and in wisdom. If there were any persons—and probably there were many—among those who surrounded him, whose attention, like his own, had at an early period of life been first awakened by the storm of the French Revolution; who had afterwards watched with anxiety that great struggle, which we so long maintained with all Europe, under the dominion, and impelled by the genius of a warrior and statesman, who had since shared in those sufferings which long clouded the triumph of a victorious nation; he must look at our present situation with delight and amazement. Still more striking must be the contrast to those, still livelier must be their satisfaction, themselves the actors in this great scene, who, having guided our civil and military affairs, and been answerable for measures of a high and intrepid policy in these times of trial, had contributed to this result by their counsels and by their arms. And all this had been accomplished with unbroken faith and with unaltered institutions; or, if any deviation from our free constitution had been forced upon us by the union of foreign and domestic danger, still, as soon as that pressure was withdrawn, it returned with elastic power to its better form, and we enjoyed under it all the happiness and all the liberty that was ever possessed by our forefathers. This was a prosperity extending to all orders, all professions, and all districts, enhanced and invigorated by the flourishing state of all those arts which ministered to human comfort, and by those inventions by which man seemed to have obtained a mastery over nature by the application of her own powers; and which, if any one had ventured to foretel only a few years ago, would have appeared altogether incredible, but which, now realized, though not yet perfected, presented to us fresh prospects, and a more astonishing career. That world, too, which had first been opened to us by the genius of a great man, but afterwards closed for centuries by a barbarous and absurd policy, was, as it were, re-discovered in our days. The last remnant of that veil which concealed it from the observation and intercourse of mankind had just been torn away; and we saw it abounding, not only in those metals which first allured the avarice of greedy adventurers, but in those more precious productions which sustain life and animate industry, and cheering the mind of the philosopher and the statesman with boundless possibilities of reciprocal advantage in civilisation and in commerce. He remembered that a great historian and statesman, after describing what appeared to him (and what, according to the imperfect nature of those times, undoubtedly was) a period of great prosperity, still complained, that there was wanting what, he called a proper sense and acknowledgment of those blessings. That, of the want of which lord Clarendon had com- plained, was not wanting to us: the people of England felt and acknowledged this happiness: the public contentment was upon a level with the public prosperity. There never was a time when the spirit of useful improvement, not only in the arts, but in all the details of domestic administration, whether carried on by the public, or by individuals, was so high. His majesty (said the noble viscount) has alluded with becoming satisfaction to the flourishing state of our finances. It is not necessary for me to go into any detail upon this subject—even if this were the proper place, and I were capable of doing so. The documents are in the hands of every one, and the inferences from them are such as cannot escape the most careless observer. Vast as was the debt that accumulated upon us in the last war, it has not increased in a proportion greater than the national means for discharging it. Public credit is as high as it was in the year 1792; capital is more abundant; and we walk as lightly under our present burthens, as we did under a fifth part of it at that celebrated era of financial prosperity. But this prosperity is not singular; and I am told there are countries in which the public revenue bears a greater proportion to the public debt than our own, and whose financial situation may, on that account, be considered as more brilliant. But, my lords, there is this difference in our favour, which amply consoles me under that superiority. Our faith has been inviolate from the beginning to the end. With us there has been no cruel sacrifice of the weak to the strong—of the helpless minority to what may be considered as the over-ruling interests of the community. With us there is no class of unfortunate persons mourning in neglected wretchedness the contrast of their own ruin with the public prosperity that has been founded upon it. In a war undertaken, I will not say upon disinterested motives, but upon the noblest and most extensive views of self-interest, as comprehending the independence of other nations, we raised our debt to eight hundred millions, and never, thanks to the foresight and integrity of the councils by which we were guided! did we shrink from the acknowledgment of it; and the only criticism now to be made upon our financial system is, that we have, in fact, acknowledged a greater debt than we incurred, and are actually over-paying the creditors of this enormous sum.—The noble viscount said, he fully concurred in the latter part of the Speech from the Throne, which alluded to the benefits which had arisen from the removal of commercial restrictions, and recommended that the principle should be persevered in. In every case in which the principle had been acted upon, the effects had been highly beneficial. He should mention only one instance, which he was more disposed to notice as it had its origin in that House—he alluded to the bill for the removal of the restrictions on the silk trade. Their lordships must recollect well how numerous and weighty were the complaints which were made when that bill was brought forward; but, so far from the trade having decayed, as had been anticipated, it had flourished since that period more rapidly than before, and had since extended almost as fast as the manufacture of cotton had done. We no longer dreaded the rivalry of the foreigner in our market, and were able to contend with him in the markets of the continent. We were now fully taught, that the great commercial prosperity of England had not arisen from our commercial restrictions, but had grown up in spite of them.—His majesty (continued the noble viscount) has recommended to your lordships' attention the state of Ireland, not indeed as a distressed, but as a divided country; for Ireland, hardly in a less degree than the rest of the empire, partakes in the general prosperity. It has increased in wealth and in industry; some benefit is already perceptible from the care that has been taken to diffuse over it the advantages of education; and in spite of religious differences, that savage turbulence which used to disgrace the country has given way to the progress of law and order. We may even flatter ourselves that the people of that country are gradually becoming more sensible to the benign and friendly spirit of the government under which they are placed. It has been too much the fashion to speak of Ireland as of an ill-used country. Now, if that be meant of old times, it is undoubtedly true; but as we approach to our own days it becomes more and more exaggerated, and at last an entire false statement of the fact. True it is, that in former times England governed Ireland as one barbarous country governs another, still inferior to it in civilisation and in strength. It is equally true, that for some years after the Revolution, and whilst success was still doubtful betwixt the parties, Whig and Protestant England did not behave with entire moderation and forbearance towards Popish and Jacobite Ireland; but this harshness ceased with the contest that gave it birth; and whatever may be said of the period before the Union, certain it is, that, since that event, Ireland has attracted the constant attention of parliament, and that every institution has been cherished, that every object has been promoted, that could advance its interest or gratify its just pride. Ireland has been treated not merely with justice, but with indulgence, partiality, and favour, as if we were sensible that a long arrear of kindness was due to her from days of dissention and disaster. But then comes the Catholic question, which may probably be considered as an exception to this rule. On an occasion of this sort, I am naturally desirous to avoid controverted topics; and yet Ireland enters for so much in the state of the empire, and the Catholic question enters for so much in the state of Ireland, that I cannot help declaring my opinion upon a subject that so much divides your lordships, though I have the misfortune to differ from the majority of those whom I address. My lords, I have always thought, and I still think, that the fixed and tranquil settlement of Ireland depends upon this great concession being made—not that it is everything—not that it is an unmixed good—but because it is indispensable, and, I believe, sooner or later, inevitable. But I am far from agreeing with those who think that the delay of this concession is to be considered as an act of wilful injustice on those by whom it is withheld. Nor can I condemn those statesmen, who, though they think it ought to be carried, do not consider it their duty to dissolve the administration of which they form a-part, in order to establish another for that especial purpose. The fact is, that this is too great a change, and shocks too many inveterate habits and opinions to be carried with less delay and resistance than it has actually experienced; and the Catholics every where labour under great error, and do great injustice to their opponents, if they allow themselves to be persuaded, that in refusing to them that boon of which they are so naturally and anxiously desirous, their Protestant fellow-subjects are under the influence of a merely hostile and exclusive spirit. It is from no such base and cruel motive, but because they are guided by sentiments and opinions which belonged to other times, and which have not very long ceased to be correct; and because they entertain what I believe to be an ill-founded, but what I am sure is a sincere, alarm for their church and religion—things dear to them on their own account, and doubly dear because their final establishment was connected and coeval with that of our civil liberties. The Catholics are suffering, unjustly if you please, but naturally, for the faults of their ancestors. If in the days of Roman Catholic persecution or Roman Catholic power, any friend, to toleration had been arguing with some minister or prince of that persuasion, he would naturally have said—"Consider what may happen hereafter: you are now a majority: you now stand upon the vantage ground—but if you once lose that superiority—if ever power should pass into the hands of those heretics whom you endeavour to destroy with fire and sword—then will your pride, then will your cruelties, then will those maxims so formidable to the civil magistrate, be remembered to the disadvantage of your posterity, and to the terror of succeeding generations. What any reasonable man might have foretold is now accomplishing; men do remember these cruelties: men do remember these maxims; and the terror and aversion of them endure, when, as I trust, there is no longer any danger of their being revived and acted upon. My lords, I believe it is a prejudice that stands in the way of Catholic emancipation; but it is a natural, a warrantable prejudice, and one that can only yield to mild and gentle means. It is therefore with infinite mortification that I see so much in the language and conduct of the Roman Catholics themselves that is calculated to keep alive the remembrance of old times—to fix upon their church the charge of being sempereadem in its most odious sense—and to strengthen the arguments and embitter the feelings of those who are determined, at all hazards, to resist their claims. Their language has become menacing, and their conduct treads upon the utmost verge of the law; provoking the hostility of their enemies, and terrifying their friends. And yet they do well to remember, that the body by which they are opposed—though I trust it is to be softened and convinced—is not to be intimidated; and that if (a thing which I mention only to deprecate) the contest were ever to be carried on by other weapons than those of reason and argument, that in the dreadful calamity that would involve our common country, they would bear the greatest share. There is only one way in which this measure can be beneficially accomplished—only one way in which I desire to see it brought about—and that is, by the well-earned and cordial consent of the Protestants of this empire. Any thing like menace or hostility—any attempt to set up a state within a state—to establish a separate revenue and independent resources—only serves to delay the event to an indefinite period. It tends to bring the whole question to the calamitous issue—who is the strongest? Now, my lords, the Protestant interest of Ireland, though less numerically than the Catholics, is infinitely superior in wealth, power, and intelligence. It may however, be said, that they would perhaps be aided by foreign arms, as they had formerly been, and with such aid I admit it is possible the Catholics might prevail against an undoubted superiority of domestic force in Ireland; but it is not likely that they could also prevail against the power of this country; and if they did, what would the consequences be? What they desire, naturally and reasonably as I think, is admission into the state—participation of privilege—an equality of civil rights. And what would they then attain? They would enter by violence into a broken and dismembered state: they would participate in half-extinguished liberty and anxious independence, and be admitted to a complete equality of wretchedness and degradation under a foreign yoke. It is better to wait for a share in a prosperous, rather than triumph in rebellion and treason over a ruined, country. From small beginnings they had once acquired, by moderation and perseverance, almost an equality of votes in their favour in both houses of parliament; and though I am inclined to believe that in this instance parliament had outrun the sense of the country, yet the omen was favorable; and I have no doubt but that, in a short time, the public would have followed its natural guides. What effect ought to be produced by what is now going on, I can hardly venture to say; but what effect will be produced, I well know. They have already lost all those that wavered; and they may ere long shake those that are still firm. It is only by reverting to another line of conduct, that they can justify the cordial co-operation of their friends, or conciliate opponents, too strong to be overcome except by the entire subversion of the state itself. They should keep in mind that this is no country for rapid changes—that even our liberties were of slow growth. If they will but compare their own condition with what it was forty years ago, they will see ample reason to be content with the past, and sanguine as to the future. There are now living—perhaps there are present—persons who had grown up to manhood before their claims in their actual extent had ever been heard of, and before any statesman would have ventured to espouse them had they been advanced. Yet, my lords, much as I disapprove of their conduct, still I would entreat your lordships not to be diverted by a just indignation at these extravagant proceedings, from the true and permanent state of the question. You will probably feel it to be your duty to concur in some measure to curb this licentious spirit; but that done, I would entreat you to consider anxiously, whether the state of the Catholics be one that can continue; I do not mean for one year, or for two, during the lieutenantcy of this noble lord, or during the administration of the other; but whether our policy is sound and consistent; and whether, if the admission of the Catholics to the stations from which they are still excluded, be an evil, it is not a less evil than their discontent in good times, and their possible disaffection in bad ones.—The noble viscount then adverted to that part of his majesty's Speech which relates to foreign relations. He was happy, he said, to find it stated, that his majesty continued to receive the strongest assurances, not only from his allies, but generally from all the governments of Europe, of their amicable and friendly dispositions. This general peace rested on the secure foundation of strength united with moderation. The only contest which existed in Europe was, not between governments, but parties. There were two great parties—one desiring to restore the ancient order of things, and the other constantly striving after some new order. That party which wished to restore the ancient order of things, were not contented with that order which existed before the revolution, but they wanted something more despotic; such as had been adopted by mankind in an uncivilized age. This party did not like our constitution. They were vexed with it, and naturally looked on our national institutions as a pregnant and dangerous source of principles which they always dreaded, and wished to repress. The other party were desirous of destroying every thing which existed, and the only remedy they could find for all the evils of mankind, was the sweeping away all the institutions which had long been held in veneration. They were, while they boasted of their attachment to freedom, extremely narrow and illiberal; and however they might differ among themselves, they were all actuated by a bitter hatred towards this country. They were not sincere in their love of liberty, of which they talked so much, for they had crouched down before Buonaparte, had worshipped him, and had endeavoured to reduce England to an imperial province. They were the enemies of all the principles of national liberty or national independence; and the institutions of this country they above all things abhorred. They resembled their predecessors, the Jacobins, but with less sincerity. These men were, indeed, worse than Jacobins. When they were subdued by their opponents, they called out loudly for liberty, by which they only meant power. They now complained, that this country did not do that which would prove its injury, if not its destruction. They threatened, and would willingly carry their threats into execution; but they knew that we possessed ample means of resisting aggression. England had, for a considerable time, been connected with the great powers of the continent for various purposes, one of which was, to resist the overwhelming power of France; but now that a regular order of things was established, it was our duty to consider our true interests, and not to lend ourselves to any party in France, or any where else, whether its object was, to establish despotism, or to resist all law and regular government.—In alluding to the South American states, the noble viscount observed, that an attempt had been made to institute a comparison between our conduct to Spain in the present instance, and that of the allies to us during the contest with our North American colonies. Now, nothing could be more unjust, in point of fact and reasoning, than that comparison. The French ultras complained, that we had not acted towards Spain with the same forbearance which was formerly shown to us. We have acted towards Spain with all the good faith that was due to a friend and ally, and with all the delicacy that was due to a friend and ally in distress. We have disdained to run a race of popularity with other nations, in order to secure to ourselves any exclusive advantage; and we refrained from this step, as long as any hope of accommodation betwixt the parties remained. But, when that hope had completely vanished, it would have been absurd to risk the advantage of an extended intercourse with that vast continent, either out of tenderness to the prejudices of an obstinate and misguided people, who seem to unite the most invincible pertinacity as to ends with the most supine negligence and incapacity as to the means, or out of respect to the high political notions of other European cabinets. I do not understand that we take this step from preference to any political creed, or as a mark of approbation to any particular form of government. The colonies are republican. They might have been monarchical—they might have been aristocratical—they might have been imperial, like the Brazils. With that we have nothing to do. But we find them independent. We know by experience that they are all able and willing to maintain what are called the accustomed relations of amity with foreign powers, and we acknowledge them to be so. Indeed, my lords, if we were challenged to go critically into the matter, it might be easily maintained, that the independence of Old Spain is much more questionable than that of her colonies; and that if we were in want of a minister to go to Mexico, one might be spared from Madrid. In Mexico the domestic government is sustained by a domestic force: no man dare hold up his finger against it; if he does, he mounts the scaffold next day. But Spain is garrisoned by 20,000 Frenchmen, who now protect the government, but who may oppress it or supersede it, if they please; and who may march, as they have marched, without resistance, from the foot of the Pyrenees to the rock of Gibraltar. A comparison has been drawn, I must say absurdly, between the situation of Spain and her colonies, and the situation of* this country and our colonies, during the American war. I will not enter into the question of that war, I will not say whether the conduct of this country was right or wrong; but at least we had fleets and armies to support our pretensions. We had a powerful king, and that king had a people. But Spain claims dominion over colonies situated in a distant country, having no force in them, and without a ship to send to sea, or a regiment to embark, with a tottering throne bolstered up by an army of foreigners, detested by all people, and without either funds or credit. We may be blamed for not taking this step earlier, but we cannot be censured for taking it now. We have proceeded with caution and delicacy, for it is a difficult question to decide, where insurrection ends, and legal government begins. His majesty's government have proceeded slowly, prudently, and justly. They have not pretended to determine where allegiance ought to end and lawful resistance begin; but have acted openly upon the undisputed fact of the states of South America, with which treaties have been concluded, being actually independent. We had proceeded cautiously, that we might have nothing to retract. Our intercourse has grown with their growth, and strengthened with their strength; and has now become complete, as their independence has become unquestionable.—The noble viscount concluded by stating, that he did not consider the other topics of the Speech from the throne to be of such importance as to render it necessary for him to detain their lordships by any observations upon them.

Lord Gort

said, that in seconding the address, he felt that few observations would be expected from him, after the able manner in which it was introduced by his noble friend. He would therefore confine himself to the expression of his opinions on that part of the royal speech which referred to the state of Ireland. It gave him pain to observe some of the proceedings of the Catholic body in that part of the empire. The noble marquis at the head of the Irish government had conducted his administration in a temperate, wise, and impartial manner, so as to gain the confidence, and merit the approbation, of every moderate and unbiassed mind. He could not, indeed, satisfy all parties, but he satisfied all those whose wishes deserved to be consulted. On the one hand, there were the violent agitators of the Catholics, who wished to turn the discontent which they created to their own advantage: and on the other, were the no less violent opponents of their claims. Lord Wellesley, in conducting his government on reasonable principles, and in a temperate manner, had shown that he consulted the interests of the country, while he carried into effect the prejudices of neither. He needed not to remind their lordships of past times, when the Irish administration was in different circumstances—when agitation was kept alive by acts of intemperate violence—and when scarcely a day passed without witnessing some outrage. The government of lord Wellesley furnished a striking contrast to this, order of things. By his judicious measures, the turbulent had been restrained, the deluded brought back to their duty, and the peace of the country restored and maintained. The constabulary force had been put in full action—confidence had been re-established—agriculture was improving—the value of land had been raised—and commercial and industrious establishments were forming. So much good had resulted from the wise measures of lord Wellesley's government, that he hoped soon to be able to congratulate their lordships on the growing prosperity of Ireland. But, while this was the situation of affairs on one hand, he could not, on the other, omit bringing under the notice of the House the conduct and the pretensions of the Catholic Association. That body had assumed the rights, and exercised the powers of a parliament. It imposed taxes, issued proclamations, and made laws for the Catholic community. Its professed object was Catholic emancipation, but its real tendency was, to overthrow the constitution. He should have an opportunity hereafter, of offering his opinion on the Catholic question, when it was brought distinctly before the House. Under that persuasion he would abstain at present from entering into the subject; but thus much he would say, that, if he was the worst enemy of the Catholics, he could not advise them to a course more destructive of their interests, or the purpose they had in view, than that which they were now taking. No man could hear of their proceedings, without feeling that they were acting in direct hostility to their own success. They indulged in the most inflammatory speeches; they told the people that they were slaves, and that the Protestants held them in bondage. Was this a language calculated to advance their claims? There were, as matters now stood, two parliaments in this empire; there was the Catholic parliament of Ireland, and the Protestant parliament of England. The two parliaments could not exist together. He therefore agreed fully in that part of his majesty's speech, which alluded to the putting down of this association. The collectors of the Catholic rent, and the debaters by whom it was promoted, affected to issue proclamations, with a view to tranquillize the people. It would be recollected, however, that the people were tranquillized before by the active measures of lord Wellesley's government. The claim of those partisans to the credit of tranquillizing Ireland was therefore absurd. He did not mean to insinuate that any of the leaders of the Catholic body were capable of advising the people to resist the laws, but he would say, that the power which they now assumed was too great to be left, consistently with prudence, in the hands of the people. He did not think that any obstacle should be thrown in the way of the Catholics on coming forward to petition parliament; but, when they came to the House they should come as petitioners, not as dictators; and then he had no doubt that their prayers would be considered with all the patience which their importance demanded; they should bear in their hands the olive branch, and not the sword.

Lord King

said, that he perfectly approved of those measures which had for their object the promotion of the industry and commerce of the country.

The Earl of Lauderdale

here reminded the House, that the address was not yet known to their lordships; that it had neither been read by the noble mover or seconder, nor from the woolsack, nor by the clerk; and that the debate could not formally proceed until their lordships knew on what they were debating.

A conversation here ensued, in which lord Holland, the earl of Lauderdale, the earl of Liverpool, and the lord Chancellor took part. Lord Liverpool allowed, that the forms of the House required the reading of the address, and took blame to himself for being the cause of the omission. The lord Chancellor said that he was not anxious to save his lungs, but it was his fault that the address was not read. He would, however, repair the omission and read it. The address was then read from the woolsack.

Lord King

observed, that he agreed with the address of the noble lords, that the resources of the country had been relieved, and its industry stimulated and improved. He gave his cordial approbation to those measures by which this result had been produced. It was the more pleasing to him to state this approbation, as the commercial regulations and measures of foreign policy on which their lordships were congratulated had been pressed upon the government by himself and his friends. They had given an advice to ministers, which, though at first opposed and neglected, had at last prevailed. As ministers had thus come round to the opinions of opposition, he hoped it would not be the last time that he should have to congratulate them on their docility. He hoped that they would take advice on a very important question, the corn laws, and that ere long they would introduce consistent measures for the trade in grain. As far as the Speech from the throne was the speech of the chief magistrate of the country, he received it with all respect and honour. He admitted that the situation of England was prosperous and fortunate; but their lordships should not forget that such was not the situation of six millions of Catholics on the other side of the Irish channel, suffering under a misgovernment which was a disgrace to our age and country. The world, in general, was now too wise to allow governments to inflict penalties, or to withhold privileges, on account of differences of religious faith. States now left their subjects to adopt any creeds they chose, without depriving them of their civil rights. The English government was the only government which carried on a contest with a large portion of its empire on account of religion. Ireland and Turkey might be cited as the only countries in Europe, where whole races were oppressed and punished on account of their faith. The grand sultan had been endeavouring to make converts of the Greeks, as the government of England had been endeavouring to make converts of the Irish Catholics; but they had not succeeded. When the unhappy Greeks complained of the sufferings which they endured, and applied to be treated a little better than Mussulman dogs, the sultan sent for his grand vizier, to ask him what was to be done. This grand vizier had at first been a friend, and then an enemy of the grand sultan. He had thus lost much of the favour of his master, and therefore much of his influence. The head of the Turkish ministry then suffered himself to be bearded in his own divan, by his officers and serving-men. He was understood to be hostile to some of the claims of the Greeks. The next person in the divan, in point of influence, was the Reis Effendi, who was friendly to the just demands of this persecuted people. This officer, it was well known, was minister for foreign affairs. His foreign policy deserved and obtained general approbation. In this part of his duties he conducted himself with remarkable liberality and talent. He had done great good, and gained considerable popularity to the government of the sultan, and would have done more had his measures not been opposed by his less enlightened colleagues. He, in fact, was the only man of real genius in the whole divan (a laugh), and was esteemed an ornament among Turkish statesmen, being gifted with poetical talents, and capable of showing "The rage of the vulture, and love of the turtle," as best suited the occasion. The Kiaya-Bey or Turkish minister of the interior was opposed to him, and was likewise an enemy of the Greeks. In his capacity of Kiaja-Bey, he was a fair minister, but was no match for the Reis Effendi. He had dismissed his predecessor as useless from the divan, and certain verses of his were remembered, in which he had held him up to ridicule in somewhat of the following manner:— Cheer him, cheer him, brother Hiley, Cheer him, cheer him, brother Bragge. The triumph of the Reis Effendi over this officer, who was an enemy of the Greeks, was complete. The capitanpacha, another member of the divan, was likewise against the Greeks, in their claims for civil privileges; but the leader of the opposition to their cause was the head mufti or chief of the Mussulman law. This officer was an enemy to all change. He had regularly opposed all improvements in trade—all improvements in law—all improvements in foreign policy. He had been, and always proclaimed himself, the greatest champion of existing abuses. He was the most consummate intriguer of the whole divan. [A laugh.] He had at one time taken up the cause of the Sultana; but he turned against her when he found that by continuing to support her he would forfeit his place in the divan. He then took up the cause of her enemies. At one time there was a proposal to admit some Greeks into the regular troops, or body of Janissaries. He then raised such a fanatical cry against this measure—very similar to the cry of "No Popery" in this country—that he turned out of the divan the members who had adopted it. He succeeded himself to office, and he no sooner got in than he agreed to the very thing against which he had clamoured. He kept the sultan's conscience and his own; but it was never remarked of him that his conscience opposed his interests. He was first employed in office by the grand vizier, "who weathered the storm." He went out after his death, but having afterwards come in again, as an enemy of the Greeks, he had ever since continued to act with some of their friends rather than again lose his office. Having minutely studied the Turkish constitution, he had found out that it was essentially Mahometan, and therefore hostile to Greek privileges. He had resolved, therefore, to continue staunch to the cause of intolerance, and was surrounded with the Mollahs, the Imans, and the Dervishes, who encouraged him in his hostile purposes. To complete the picture of this divided divan, the members who composed it had resolved, that in certain questions they should agree, and in certain questions they might continue to differ, without breaking up their union. Such was the harmonious discord of this Turkish council. Having seen the evils resulting from such divan—having seen the Mussulman empire torn by this intolerance of some members of it to their Greek brethren, and their quarrels among themselves—he would pray that this country might not be delivered up to such a divided cabinet. [A laugh.]

The Marquis of Lansdown

said, that he would not have troubled their lordships with any observations, unless in order to express his dissent from one part of the address. With regard to most of the general topics which had been discussed that night, there could not be much diversity of opinion. The country could not fail to feel the justice of the sentiments expressed generally by his noble friend who moved the address, even though they had not been enforced with so much eloquence—an eloquence which he should always hear with pleasure, from whatever side of the House it came. He gave his hearty concurrence to all that had been said about the internal prosperity of the country, and the wisdom of its foreign policy in the recognition of the independent states of South America. As he gave his hearty approbation to this last measure, he would not stop to refer to the time or the circumstances in which it had taken place, or to decide whether it ought not to have been adopted earlier. He thought that this country should look to the recognition of American independence as a bright object, not only on account of the commercial interests which it would promote, but of the just principles which it would establish. For the sake of no commercial object should we act upon principles contrary to what we owed to our own honour, or what was due to others. He saw no reason why this acknowledgement should not have taken place nine months ago. He was happy to see that when it did take place, it was connected with no stipulation for commercial advantages. He was likewise glad to see that it had no reference to particular forms of government—that it admitted of aristocratic, republican, or monarchical institutions. The broad principle which the recognition supported was, that every nation had a right to choose its own government, without foreign interference; and this sufficiently distinguished our policy from that of the nations of the continent. It showed that we had no community of feeling with those governments which claimed this right, and it embraced a wider space than could have been done in any particular instance, without exciting resentment, or placing our system in direct opposition to theirs. Nothing had been said by the noble mover or seconder of the address on the state of affairs in India, or the Burmese war; yet it had been said, that this war had created such an alarm, that it required an addition to our army of 10 or 15,000 men to allay. He did not know the force or the pretensions of the Burmese; but a war with so distant a power, which required so great an addition to our army in a period of otherwise general tranquillity, would, no doubt, be made the subject of a special communication to parliament. Distance should not so far diminish our interest in such a state of things, as to make us insensible to so great an increase of our establishment. Some communication, therefore, would, no doubt, appear necessary; and he would say nothing further on the subject, until it was laid before the House. With reference to that part of his Majesty's Speech which touched upon the state of Ireland, he regarded it as peculiarly deserving the attention of the House. He did not mean to enter—nor would he do so until more fully informed—into the proceedings of the Catholic Association of that country, either in the way of justification or attack; but he must caution their lordships to beware how they suffered themselves to be beguiled into an expectation, that, by merely removing the outward symptoms of the malady submitted to their treatment, they gained any thing against the cause which brought those symptoms into exhibition. In a state of irritation like that which prevailed at present—irritation arising out of the discontent of five or six millions of people, placed with respect to their law, their church, and their exclusion from political power, in a state entirely different from that of any other body equal in numbers in any country in the world—in this state of things, he conjured noble lords not to believe that, by checking the present measures of the Catholic Association, however those measures might call for check, they would cure the disease which affected the body of the Irish population. The existing symptoms might be quashed; but new troubles must and would arise, arresting the prosperity of the sister kingdom, and unnerving the vigour of our own. With this view of the difficulty to be surmounted, he should look at any specific measure which might be proposed; but he thought it fair to say, that he set out with the conviction, namely, that in any country situated as Ireland was, there must always exist a large fund of discontent ready to be drawn upon for evil purposes. Such being the case, was it not more desirable that public opinion should make its way by open channels than by secret ones—that correspondence should be carried on, and that that sort of systematic relation which would always prevail between different bodies of men labouring under similar disabilities, should circulate openly and avowedly, than that it should be conducted in darkness and concealment, working its ends unheard and un-perceived, and producing mischief where it perhaps might have been harmless, had the eye of authority been able to pursue it. It was not, he repeated it, the outward and visible signs, however unfortunate they might be, that government had to dread—these signs did not embody the disease with which Ireland was afflicted. The freemasonry which government had to dread, was that which bound men to each other by a common sense of interest, which taught them to strengthen themselves by alliance, and to aid each other in evading the law. What the nature of the evils anticipated from the proceedings of the Catholic Association was, he did not know. The noble lord who had seconded the address had adverted to the danger, but had not distinctly expressed the nature of it. When he should have full information upon this point, he should be ready to consider of any measure proposed, and to adopt such measure if the necessity for it should be shown; but still with a caution which he hoped to communicate to the House generally, not to increase the evil by checking its outward display rather than striking at the root of it; and certainly not to be too hasty in putting down the public manifestation of discontent in a country where discontent, so long as the present system lasted, must inevitably manifest itself in some shape or other.

The Earl of Liverpool

said, that he should not have addressed any observations to the House, but for some of the statements made by the noble marquis who had just taken his seat. When a spirit of general satisfaction seemed to pervade the country, and when the noble marquis himself appeared to join in it, and admitted that it had increased in prosperity, no difference of opinion existed between them. After the eloquent description that had been given by the noble mover upon the state of the country, he should not weaken its effect by attempting to say any thing upon that subject; but he could not pass one topic relating to it upon which he peculiarly congratulated himself, and that was, that after ail the difficulties which England had contended with successfully during the progress of the war, she had found that difficulties scarcely less trying remained yet to be surmounted in a state of peace. The same question which circumstances had brought into discussion frequently before, was now agitated again, and with redoubled violence. Vast numbers of persons concurred in thinking, that the country could never again return to a metallic currency, and yet keep faith with the public creditor. The House could not but fully recollect these opinions, connected as they had been with the difficulties sustained by the country in its transition from a war of twenty years' duration to a state of entire and absolute peace. Their lordships knew the clamour which had been raised—the numerous publications which had issued from the press upon this subject. In the midst of distress and difficulty, government had been called upon to reduce the burthens of the people—bur- thens which, indeed, pressed heavily, but which, nevertheless, at that time, it had been impossible to take off. But if the two Houses of parliament had displayed firmness in the course of the great struggle which they had carried on against France, they had shown no less firmness in meeting the pressure consequent upon the conclusion of that struggle. Parliament had determined—and they had carried their determination into effect—to attain that, without which the prosperity of the country never could have rested upon a solid foundation: they had determined to return to a sound metallic currency; and they had accomplished this without violating a single previous engagement which they had entered into with the public creditor. The task had been a Herculean one; but we had accomplished it, and were now enjoying our reward—England had reached a state of prosperity, greater than any other country enjoyed, nay, greater than she herself, at any antecedent period, had ever attained. This, then, being the internal state of the country, government might fairly proceed to the agreeable task of removing those restrictions which, under less prosperous auspices, it would have been unsafe to meddle with. With respect to his own conduct, and the principles which he advocated, however he might have held that, up to a certain time, those restrictions ought to be maintained, parliament was bound, he thought, always to act with caution; but, the general principles of free trade he had always laid down as the great foundation of national prosperity, and as those which ought to be resorted to at the earliest moment that the situation of England would permit. With respect to the recognition of South American independence, the noble marquis who had last spoken, expressed his entire approbation of that measure. The question, in fact, had been, not whether South America should be open to the commerce of Great Britain, but whether she should be open to the intercourse of mankind at large. Important as he had always thought that question with respect to South America—important as he had considered it with reference to other political interests than those immediately developed—still he should have felt himself unworthy of the situation which he filled, if he had allowed that question, as far as his opinion was concerned, to be argued upon any narrow principle of commercial interests whatever. On a former occasion he had stated, when the South American business was discussed, that he did not think that England, or any other country, had a right to set itself up in judgment between the mother country and the colonies. We had no right to dispute the independence; but, on the other hand, we were not entitled to assert and maintain it. The noble mover of the address had adverted to the existence of two parties in another country, one of which was disposed to bring back all abuses, the other to uphold the doctrines of insurrection and resistance to authority. It seemed to him, that in this country it was a strange arrangement of political opinion, that the very same parties frequently, who could only hear of one nation planning an invasion against another with expressions of indignation, would, where any colony rose against its parent state, express nothing but astonishment that its struggles for liberty should not be instantly assisted. Now, what he maintained was, that, except as far as was necessary to her own safety, England had no right to interfere, or to set herself up in judgment between Spain and her South American colonies. The immediate questions were several, prior to a decided recognition. Was there any dispute still pending between the colonies and the parent state? Were there any measures in progress likely to bring about a reconciliation? Was there any considerable party in the colony in arms in favour of the mother country? In either of these last cases, he should say, that no foreign power had a right to interfere; but, if no such courses were any longer in operation, then the right accrued to interfere—not for the peculiar benefit of either party, but for the advantage of the world at large. We had acted with caution in this affair; and it was our duty to do so. Spain was our ally, and had been so long, and our treaty had been a treaty to maintain her entire. From time to time, in the commencement of the disputes, we had offered our mediation to the Spanish government; and it was now clear, that to Spain—not in her state of bondage, but in her period of independent action—great part of the colonies, if not the whole, might have been preserved, if that mediation had been listened to. This, then, being the case, the duty of England was clearly to put to herself this question-Were any of the colonies any longer in that state which rendered foreign inter- ference improper? Were there any as to which a reconciliation with the mother country seemed probable; or any in which a strong party in favour of that country was still in arms? avowing that, in all attempts at, or offers to the effect of, mediation, the principle should be to give a preference to the rights of the parent state. The noble earl then entered into a brief view of the circumstances under which Mexico, Colombia, and Buenos-Ayres had been struggling for independence, in order to demonstrate, that the steps now taken by England in their favour could not properly have been taken at an earlier period.—With respect to the affairs of India, and the increase contemplated in the military establishment of the country, the noble marquis who had last spoken, had alluded to certain reports which were abroad. He, however, begged the noble marquis to take nothing more for granted than was declared in the Speech from the throne. It was not by any fault or neglect on the part of the executive government, that earlier information upon this subject had not been given to parliament. Papers would shortly be produced, and if farther explanation were desired every possible disposition existed to afford it. It remained now therefore, only to trouble the House with a few words, and they should, at present, be but few, upon the state of Ireland. To enter fully into detail upon the questions connected with that country, would occupy more time than it was now desirable to devote to it. In considering that matter, which was adverted to in the royal Speech, and would come under the consideration of the House—in considering that matter, he could not treat it as wholly unconnected with the general Catholic question, because there was no subject which affected Ireland at all, which some persons would not be disposed to mix up with that question; but he certainly should treat it as a matter by no means growing out of, or immediately connected with it. For the measure which was to be proposed, there was nothing about it which should prevent its being discussed upon its own independent merits. There was nothing about it which touched the question of Catholic claims, nothing which the advocate of those claims might not vote for as freely as he who stood most opposed to them. With regard to the proceedings taken at this moment by the Catholic Association, there could be no doubt that they amount ed to an evasion of the provisions of the Statute-book. They were undertaken, and carried on in that spirit which said, determinately—"Whatever law you make, our business shall be to evade and to nullify it." The proceedings of the Catholic Association at this moment were in decided hostility to the intent of the convention act. It was for parliament to declare, whether it would authorize the evasion of a statute so important. There might be those who would say generally, that they disliked the effect of the restrictive laws operating upon Ireland, and that they would do nothing to strengthen or to extend them; but whenever those persons looked at the conduct of the party which called itself the Catholic Association, and saw it actually levying an unauthorized tax upon the Catholic population of Ireland—would they say that the existence of such a body was consistent with the constitution of this country, or compatible with its peace? He protested that, if he stood before the House as the advocate of Catholic claims, the first act which he would vote for should be the putting down of that convention, the Catholic Association; because, if the Catholic claims were granted, they ought to be granted upon their own merits, and not to the demand of such an Association, acting in the way that that body was disposed to act. He renounced every desire, every idea, of interfering with the right of the Catholics to assemble and petition parliament; but that right was not now the question; the question was, whether that conduct should be tolerated which was decidedly inconsistent with the spirit of the Jaws. He said this, not with reference to parliament alone, but to the nation at large. There were abuses with respect to Ireland, which had in some measure been mitigated since the last session. The House might remember the opinions he had then expressed. It had been attempted to connect those abuses with the Catholic question, with which, however, they could not necessarily nor properly be connected, and he had therefore refused to consider them as relating to each other. He felt that parliament owed it to the peace and prosperity of Ireland, to take some measures to put down any convention in that country. What, he would ask, had prevented Ireland from being equal in prosperity to this country? England was heavily taxed, while the taxes drawn from Ireland were comparatively light. Then what could make the difference between the two? He answered, it was the spirit of political and religious dissention existing in that country. If that were the case, he would boldly ask any man whether any greater bar to the prosperity of a nation could exist, than such a convention as the Catholic Association, which must keep alive those dissentions? For the sake of the peace of Ireland, parliament were bound to look to this Association; and in order to bring it definitely before the House, he now gave notice that he should shortly move for a renewal of the committee to inquire into the state of Ireland.

The Earl of Donoughmore

said, it gave him extreme pain to rise in opposition to what had fallen from the noble lord; particularly as the Speech from the throne had his approbation, with the exception of only one particular passage. In addressing their lordships, he should speak as an individual who had taken the strongest part in the administration of justice in Ireland, and whose endeavours to administer the laws with impartiality had not been altogether without effect. In the present tranquil state of Ireland, and after that country had been so long without disturbance of any sort, the coercive measures alluded to by his majesty's ministers ought not to be resorted to. He maintained that the Catholic Association had produced no evil, but, on the contrary, had effected much good. The Catholic priesthood had been most active in discouraging sedition and tumult, and their efforts had been attended with more than ordinary success; for he would ask, in what other period would that country have proceeded so tranquilly in the pursuit of such an important measure, and when was she in a more tranquil situation than at present? The government ought not therefore to pass a Convention act against six millions of people, who were in a state of tranquillity, and had done nothing to render such severity necessary. While the people of Ireland were submissive to the laws, was it not prudent to leave them alone? And that they were in such a state, was acknowledged in the Speech from the throne. He was really surprised at one clause in the Speech, and upon which the noble earl had said that he would explain himself to the House in the course of a week. Now, he thought that when the government was going to take away the liberties of a country, their explanations ought to precede their measures, and not follow them. It was a strange proceeding to put down a people by the most severe measures, and then tell why they had so put them down. One cry was, that the Catholic Association spoke the language of sedition; but the law courts had decided otherwise; and, after appealing to the laws of the land, was the government dissatisfied with their decision, and therefore going to make fresh laws? Others had complained that the Association spoke their sentiments aloud. Did they, then, wish them to plot and contrive in the dark? Government might legislate; but they would find that the magic of an act of parliament would not put down six millions of men, who had a just cause to complain of grievances. He should not propose any amendment; but he could not help declaring, that he had a strong objection to that part of the Speech which related to the Roman Catholic part of the community.

The Earl of Roden

rose to express his satisfaction at the hope held out in his majesty's speech, and repeated in the speech of the noble earl at the head of the treasury, that ministers would propose measures for putting down the Roman Catholic Association, which had, for upwards of twelve months, been allowed to pursue their dangerous course without molestation. He spoke in the presence of persons who had passed the winter and summer in Ireland, and who could bear testimony to the baneful effects which the Association had produced on the minds of the peasantry. The time had arrived, when it became necessary for parliament to show that they would not be dictated to by the Roman Catholic Association. It was by decisive measures alone that the agitators could be made to crouch, and not by weak and variable proceedings, such as had lately been exhibited in Ireland—he meant the prosecution of this and that individual, which tended to keep up the irritation which already was, unfortunately, but too prevalent in that country.

Viscount Clifden

felt himself compelled to address a few words to their lordships upon the subject of the Catholic Association. He had perused the address of that Association, which had been read from the pulpit of every chapel in Ireland; he had been a subscriber to that Association, and, by the blessing of God, would continue to be so, until the government could contrive to make it illegal. The Catholic Association would claim to be heard at their lordships' bar. Their lordships might talk of the abuse poured out by the Association against their opponents; but did they not also hear of the calumny circulated against them in newspapers, until they had, at a vast expense, been obliged to set up opposition papers, upon the principle of self-defence. For the attacks upon the Catholics, he had only to refer to the Orange Association, and to the Bible meetings. He knew that one noble lord, a prelate of Ireland, the archbishop of Tuam, highly disapproved of these Bible Associations. Their very object was, to make proselytes, and he would like to know how Protestants would feel, if their children were exposed to such a system of conversion from the faith of their fathers. However the government might suppress the Catholic Association in its present form, they could not prevent private subscriptions, and other measures of a similar nature. But, he felt particularly provoked at the government bringing forward this measure at a period when all Europe, except Spain, was without any of these religious exclusions. The measure was most strangely in opposition to a proclamation of his majesty, dated 18th December last, and addressed to his Hanoverian subjects. This proclamation expressly set forth, that no difference of religious tenets could justly lead to any difference in the enjoyment of civil rights, in the countries comprehended in the Germanic confederation. It further declared, that every christian sect, of whatever denomination or description, was to enjoy a perfect equality of civil rights, that the notion of a predominant and merely tolerant church was entirely abolished; that every species of christian was entitled to the free exercise of public worship, and that the clergy were to take their fees, emoluments, and entire revenue solely from the people of their own persuasion. The same freedom to the Irish Catholics had been held out to them by Mr. Pitt, who had left office upon this question in 1801. Fox, Burke, Grattan, Sheridan, Grenville, and other illustrious men, had unanimously upheld these principles, and surely all these men could not have been wrong, and only the other part of the cabinet right. The Catholics and Dissenters, in- cluding Methodists, decidedly out-numbered the church, and it was impossible that such a system of proscription could continue much longer.

The address was then agreed to nem. con.