HL Deb 30 March 1824 vol 11 cc1-8

on the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,

Earl Bathurst

said, that the bill to which he had to call their lordships' attention was one of very great importance, and it was also of importance that it should be passed into a law as soon as possible. Unless the bill should now pass, so that the news of its passing might arrive in America previous to the separation of Congress, the convention agreed to between this country and the United States could not be carried into effect, as the sanction of Congress was necessary. If it were not now obtained, it could not be had till November, and the measure would remain incomplete. Instead, therefore, of moving that the bill be now committed, he should propose that it should not go at all to a committee, but be now read a third time.

Earl Grosvenor

said, he would not object to the course proposed by the noble earl. He wished to see the bill passed as soon as possible into a law, that the convention might receive the assent of the United States, and that both countries might reap equal honour from passing such a law. He congratulated the House and the country on the progress which this measure had made since the question of the Slave Trade was agitated forty years ago; and he particularly congratulated the House at finding that after so long a period, some of those persons who first started forward in the good work, were still living, and zealously employed in carrying it to its full completion. He did not rise to make any opposition to the bill, with which he fully concurred, but to advert to a subject connected with it; and to take that opportunity of putting some questions to the noble earl. He had before expressed his hearty approval of the instructions sent out to our colonies by the noble earl; but there were one or two points connected with those instructions, to which he wished to draw his attention. He understood that the object of those instructions was, to lead to the final abolition of slavery; this was the ultimate view, and to promote this, every facility was to be given. It had been stated, he understood, by the noble earl opposite, on a late occasion, that four years ago the question was doubtful, whether the progeny of slaves were themselves slaves or not; and that then an act had passed, settling the doubt, and declaring that they were. He supposed, therefore, if nothing further than these instructions were to issue, that the children were to remain, as before, the slaves of their masters, because their parents were slaves. He wished some measure to be adopted to obviate this—a measure something like, that which had been agreed to in Colombia, where a sum was appropriated gradually to promote the manumission of slaves. He had understood from the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, that the government was disposed to give every facility to attain his object. Indeed, that noble earl had pledged himself, if the present measure should be found not to afford, facilities enough, that other and more extensive measures should be adopted. The point to which he wished first to direct the attention of the noble earl was, this pledge of the noble earl at the head of the Treasury; which he hoped the noble earl opposite would now confirm. The next point to which he wished to direct the attention of the noble earl was, the contumacious Islands. He was disposed to infer from the speech of the noble earl, that it was not intended to adopt any proceedings to extend to them the regulations which had been drawn up for the other islands. But these islands might proceed further than they had done, and Jamaica might carry those threats into execution, which the orators of its House of Assembly had uttered. He wished to know, in tin's case, what measures the noble earl opposite was prepared to adopt? For his own part, be should prefer having recourse to those fiscal regulations to which the noble earl had formerly alluded; as he thought it better to carry on a bloodless war of the Custom-house, which might restore those colonies to their reason, than have recourse to any stronger measures. If such regulations were adopted in time, they might save their lordships and the country from being ultimately obliged to adopt measures of a more disagreeable character. This was a point of the greatest importance, on which it was necessary their lordships should have some correct information. One other point to which he wished to direct the attention of the noble earl opposite was, the proposed ecclesiastical establishment. He wished to know how this was to be provided for? At present, there was an extensive system of spiritual instruction in the islands which cost the country nothing; and of the missionaries the noble earl himself had spoken with considerable approbation. It would certainly therefore be satisfactory to their lordships to know what that establishment was to cost by which they were to be replaced. The last point on which he would touch, was free labour. It was idle to say, that this could not be adopted in our West-India Islands. At Sierra Leone it had succeeded so well, that men just captured and rescued from the hands of the slave-dealers, were found to make good labourers. All these points were of considerable importance; and the House required information respecting them, before it could see any prospect of the final abolition of the abominable system of slavery. Before he sat down, he could not refrain from expressing his regret at finding that there were persons in this country, who maintained that the situation of West-India slaves was better than that of the labourers of England. Perhaps, in some instances, the slaves might be better off, in point of food; but what did that amount to, when the great difference between the situation of, an English peasant, enjoying all the blessings of liberty in a free country, and the slave compelled to labour at the will of his master, was taken in to consideration? It was astonishing that any persons could compare the freedom in the one case, with the slavery in the other. The difference was as striking as that of light and darkness.

Earl Bathurst

said, that as the noble earl had no objection to make to the measure then before their lordships, it was not necessary for him to take up the time of their lordships by making any remarks on that subject, and he only rose to answer the questions put by the noble earl with respect to slavery, and with respect to the future amelioration of the condition of the slave population. On the subject of the first question, he had been misunderstood. The noble earl seemed to think that he had, on a former occasion, entered into the question, whether the issue of slaves were to be free or not? and also to think, that he had stated, that until within the last four years the law on this point was uncertain, and that then an act of parliament had declared, that the issue or slaves should be also slaves. What he had stated was, that the proprietors of slaves had a right to their issue; and this principle was confirmed by all the statutes, which throughout recognised the principle, that the issue of a slave was the property of his master. He had stated this as a general principle, with reference to the registering of slaves. There was a clause in the Registry act, that no creditor having lent money on any particular estate, could have any hold on the slaves of that estate as a security for his debt, unless they were particularly mentioned in the mortgage. In those islands where the Registry act was in force, it was not possible to raise money on mortgage, unless the slaves, in whose labour the value of an estate consisted, were expressly mentioned. In the law referred to, the registering of the slaves was considered as one of the means therefore of securing property; and his observations, on the occasion alluded to by the noble earl, were not applied to the general question, of the offspring of slaves being always slaves, but solely went to recognize the principle, with a view to this registry; and to this security of property, that the offspring of the slave was also the property of his master.—As to the second point in the noble earl's speech; namely, the giving facilities to the manumission of slaves, it was a fact, that there were already existing by custom many facilities for attaining this object; and the instructions mentioned by the noble earl only gave the sanction of law to previous customs. As the laws now stood in most of the islands, property under mortgage derived much of its value from the slaves; and it certainly was not intended by these regulations, that any persons having an interest in that property should be injured by these regulations. If the encouragement given by the government to manumission were found ineffectual, he could assure the noble earl, that there was a strong disposition on the part of his majesty's government to encourage the manumission, and if the instructions already sent out did not lead to this object, more efficacious measures would be adopted. As to the legislative assemblies of the other islands, and their disposition to adopt the instructions and regulations sent out, he thought nothing could be more likely to injure the cause which the noble earl meant to serve, than now making their conduct the subject of discussion. He hoped and trusted, that they would take a more liberal and calmer view of the question.

The Marquis of Lansdown,

while he thought it was natural that his noble friend should wish to obtain information respecting the state of the slaves and the future intentions of his majesty's government, agreed with the noble earl opposite, that it was better to refrain, at present, from entering into any detailed discussions on the subjects which had been agitated. He trusted, however, that the noble secretary of state had some solid ground for believing, that the islands in which the order in council was not to be immediately enforced, would be induced to take a more reasonable view of the subject than they had hitherto done. Indulging this hope, he certainly was disposed to let the question rest as it now stood. But if, unhappily, those islands should persist in the course they had hitherto taken, then the discussions which the noble earl deprecated must come on. In the mean time, it certainly was much more desirable that the assemblies in the West-India islands should, of their own accord, entertain right views on this important subject; that, from the example of the other colonies, where the system of amelioration was to be carried into effect, they might at last be induced to adopt those measures, to which their own interests, not more than humanity, required them to resort, and by which alone the population of the colonies could be improved, and civilization advanced; and thereby relieve the king's government and that House from the disagreeable task upon which they would have to enter, were they to be called upon to discuss the question of the means of enforcing the measures for the well-being of the whole of his majesty's dominions which, in the case of undue resistance, must arise. For the reasons he had stated, he did not wish to go further into this subject. Neither did he rise to offer any opposition to the bill, which, happily for the country and for the world, was now on their lordships' table—a bill, the object of which he had long taken every opportunity to urge and recommend, as a measure indispensably necessary for the total abolition of the slave trade. The measure, however, could not be efficient without the concurrence of other powers. A bill, making the slave trade piracy, had previously passed the congress of the United States; and it was satisfactory to see a free people thus taking the lead, by acts of their own suggestion, in measures of justice and humanity. He understood that the treaty concluded between the United States and this country was as yet conditional. He knew not why it had not been laid on the table; perhaps it was kept back in consequence of its being as yet regarded as merely conditional. He knew not whether what he was stating was right [Earl Bathurst said across the table that the treaty was not ratified]. That accounted for its not being laid on the table. But his reason for now addressing their lordships, or rather the noble secretary of state, was his wish to be informed whether the treaty contained a provision binding the two countries to press the adoption of the same stipulations by all christian nations. The governments of Europe having already adopted the principle, that the slave trade is contrary to humanity, it would be an everlasting disgrace to those who permitted any practices calculated to counteract the object of this bill. Happy as he should always be at seeing this country and the United States of America embarked in any common cause, he still more rejoiced at seeing them united in one, the principle of which was humanity, and which was so important to the welfare of both countries and so consistent with what was to be expected from their common origin and common religion. Taking it for granted that the treaty contained a provision of the kind to which he had alluded, he trusted and hoped that no time would be lost by the two contracting powers, in recommending, by their example, and enforcing by their demands on other states, the execution of the treaty; and, should any be hardy enough to oppose its execution, that they would, if necessary, be declared "hostes humani generis," and stamped with that character of disgrace which such a conduct would deserve. Having said this much, he felt it to be an act of duty to a most worthy individual, to mention, that the principle of piracy, as applied to the slave trade, was first acted on by a British officer employed in the Arabian gulf. Sir W. Keir Grant had concluded a treaty with the Arab princes on the shores of that sea, one condition of which was, that carrying away persons from the coast of Africa should be considered a crime against the law of nations in general, and against this country in particular. He did not know whether this condition had been strictly adhered to by the Arab powers; but the introduction of the principle redounded not the less to the honour of the gentleman with whom it originated. He hoped that the same condition would be introduced into all future treaties, and so strictly enforced, as to effect the extinction of the barbarous atrocities committed on the coast of Africa. He had no wish to oppose the course by which the noble secretary of state proposed to expedite the bill, and could not but applaud the zeal he had manifested in bringing forward this important measure.

The Earl of Harrowby

stated, that the constitution of the United States required, that the treaty should have the sanction of congress before it could be ratified: for that reason it was proper to despatch the present bill as speedily as possible, one of the same kind having already passed the congress. Our bill and treaty were, however, measures independent of each other; and so were the American bill and treaty. It followed, therefore, that, whether the treaty should be ratified or not, the slave-trade would still be piracy by the laws of both countries. In reply to the question of the noble marquis, he had to state, that there was in the treaty a stipulation, by which the United States and Great Britain pledged themselves to invite other powers to accede to the same measure.

The bill was then read a third time, and passed.