HL Deb 18 March 1824 vol 10 cc1221-32
Mr. Baring

rose for the purpose of presenting a petition from the Silk-manufacturers of London against the proposed reduction of the duty. The petitioners stated, that notwithstanding the boon held out to the trade by the proposed return of the duty on the stock in hand, they still remained unaltered in opinion as to the ruinous consequences of the measures proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the general regulation of the duties. They were satisfied, that if the bill for effecting it passed, the silk trade of this country would be destroyed, and thousands of hands thrown out of employment. He had made inquiries on the subject, and the only observation he had heard from the parties interested was, "We hope we shall have time to get out of the trade before the storm arrives." This important step had been taken by the chancellor of the Exchequer without due inquiry. The report of the House of Lords had been the only source of information consulted; and the House, he feared, was averse even to the hearing of counsel on behalf of the petitioners. Such was part of the prayer; and, recollecting how incompetent he was to enter into the necessary details, and to enforce the arguments with due effect, however strongly he might feel them, he intreated the House not to listen, on this point, to the advice of the hon. member for Aberdeen. The petitioners had the strongest claim to have an opportunity of stating the peculiar hardships of their case; and they would be able to do it with great effect, through a gentleman not only learned in the law, but well acquainted with the manufacture of silk. He was instructed to say, that the petitioners were willing to forego the whole amount of bounty to be given to them, if they were allowed a further extension of time. They were of opinion, that the return of duty promised would amount to infinitely more than the calculation ministers seemed to have made. The president of the Board of Trade had supposed that it might be about 100,000l.; but the petitioners, who had much better means of knowing, were convinced that it would exceed a million. If this sum could be saved to the public, surely that fact alone ought to be sufficient to induce gentlemen to pause, and to listen to the information they could obtain through the intervention of counsel. To refuse to hear counsel was to treat this important subject with greater levity and carelessness than they would do a common road bill. Without further remark, he would move for leave to bring up the petition.

Mr. Ellice

did not rise to oppose the reception of the petition; on the contrary, he was satisfied that the House could not too often discuss important subjects of this kind, before it arrived at a decision. It was fair to the chancellor of the Exchequer to say, that the manufacturers of Coventry were now generally satisfied with the measures about to be adopted. They were not yet convinced that they should be able to compete with France in particular branches of the silk trade; but they were quite willing, with the promised allowance, that the experiment should be fairly tried. He was also instructed by his constituents to state, that they were no parties to the resolutions recently passed at the City of London-tavern. A considerable part of the trade felt that we should be able to compete with the French. Such had always been his opinion; but the portion most likely to be injured by the rivalship was that established at Coventry. The whole arrangement would require the greatest possible attention. In the committee on the bill he would submit one or two amendments.

Sir James Mackintosh

wished to take that opportunity of making a declaration, which he should have made long ago, had not ill health prevented him. He highly approved of all that the chancellor of the Exchequer had done upon this subject, and he could not, with any regard to consistency or common decency, agree in the opinion, that ministers had not been sufficiently slow and cautious in resorting, even thus limitedly, to the principles of free trade; because he should thereby condemn the friends by whom he was surrounded, but especially himself: he having long had occasion to complain that ministers were tardy in adopting self-evident principles. The experience and reflection of his whole life had convinced him that those principles were the best and soundest foundation of the well-being of nations; and, from year to year, he had witnessed the fatal results of a deviation from them. He was, therefore, not content to say, idly and unmeaningly, that though he approved of them in theory, he would not attempt to carry them into practice. He had been a little surprised at the two sorts of complaints against ministers, made by his hon. friend (Mr. Baring), which were rather at variance with each other. First, his hon. friend charged them with too hasty an adoption of measures partaking of the nature of free trade; and next, he blamed them for still retaining certain restrictions and regulations. The chancellor of the Exchequer had certainly adopted a new system, founded upon the free use of industry, and the free exchange of commodities; but both charges could not be true, and it appeared to him (sir J. L.) that both were unfounded. On the authority of Mr. Harrison (with whose learning in the law, but not in the Silk trade, he was well acquainted), his hon. friend had mentioned, that the country would lose a considerable sum by this plan. With all due respect for the authority of the Silk manufacturers, as to their own interests, he must say, that, on a question which regarded the interests of the country, he preferred the authority of the president of the Board of Trade. For his own part, satisfied as he was, that the measures of government upon this subject, as far as they went, were wise and salutary, he should give them his zealous support. He was of opinion that ministers had made as large concessions to this class of manufacturers as could be expected, and he ventured to prefer this request to them, that they would make a stand, and grant nothing more. He was as ready as any man to hear counsel upon a particular subject—nobody had their ears more open to complaints and representations: but be would not act so unfairly and so deceitfully by the petitioners, as to require them to send counsel to the bar, to attempt to alter an opinion that was so fixed, that it could not be changed. Those who thought that their notions upon a subject might be varied, would do very well to listen to counsel; while those who were of a contrary persuasion, would act with duplicity and fraud, if they encouraged hopes that must be disappointed, and invited discussion in a case which, in truth, was already decided.

Mr. Tierney

said, he felt himself obliged, by the speech of his hon. and learned friend, to trouble the House with a few remarks. Some of the doctrines which it contained was a little extraordinary. Though he (Mr. T.) was a fast friend to the principles of free trade, yet he thought the House and the country under an obligation to the hon. member for Taunton, for the part he had taken in the course of these discussions. He did not agree, indeed, with all that that hon. gentleman had laid down; but he did agree with him in thinking, that the House ought to proceed with caution, if not with hesitation, on a subject of such deep interest, and involving such an extent of capital. It would seem from the speech which his hon. and learned friend had just delivered, as if no friend of free trade, could take any other course than that of saying to ministers—"you have given up enough; you have done very well, but do not concede any more." No man was more anxious to see liberal principles of trade adopted than he was; and the best proof of that anxiety was, that he had come down for the purpose of supporting ministers, and had supported them on this question throughout. The chancellor of the Exchequer had acted in a fair, open, and candid manner; and it came with the more effect, because, of late years, the House had witnessed from the place which the right hon. gentleman now filled, conduct of a very different kind. He had therefore felt disposed to give him his support; and in this instance he supported him, because he concluded that he was not about to act merely theoretically, but to carry his object into effect by a due arrangement of the drawbacks, and bounties. He concluded, however, that the right hon. gentleman had thoroughly informed himself on the subject, and that what he had laid down as safe to be administered, he had ascertained to be so. He had not imagined, that the right hon. gentleman had come forward on the 23d ult., without having had a thorough communication with the parties interested. Government possessed means of information which individuals could not have; and what the right hon. gentleman had brought forward ought to have been the result of frequent interviews and discussions. When, in the absence of the chancellor of the Exchequer from ill health, the president of the Board of Trade had followed up his proposition, he (Mr. T.) had been much disappointed at the enlargement of the time to two years and a half. He had concluded, that the delay was owing to the exertions of the manufacturers, and that the right hon. gentleman had been fighting with them the battles of free trade against exclusion. He had given his assent to the proposition merely because such had been his conclusion. But, how did it turn out?—that ministers had come to no arrangement, no understanding at all, with the manufacturers. He spoke as an ignorant man upon the doctrines of free trade; but he knew that the vital interests of very large classes of the community were involved and it was no reason against hearing counsel, that the time had been postponed. His information was extremely limited. He had seen only one of the parties, but he had seen enough to convince him that they were entitled to be heard. He begged the House to consider the situation in which it might by possibility be placed. His hon. friend (sir J. M.) had spoken warmly in favour of the principles of free trade, and had declared that they were at stake on this question; but, might it not happen that after the duties had been altered, the drawbacks and bounties arranged and allowed, and after the lapse of two years and a half, the prohibition might not be taken off? The question would then be drily and nakedly—ought French goods to be allowed to come into competition with English manufactures? Suppose the present project were to damp and depress the trade, then an unanswerable argument would be given to the silk weavers: "if the mere threat of change had done so much injury, would the House consent to crush it altogether, by carrying that threat into execution?" Suppose, on the contrary, that it should produce an increase then it might be said fairly enough, that the trade was most flourishing, and that it was not fair to transfer the advantage to those whom many considered the natural enemies of Great Britain. The House had had some experience not long ago, from Spitalfields. How strenuously had it resisted the two or three thousand gentlemen who had, day after day, bowed the members into the lobby. They were defeated in the House of Commons; but when the bill went up to the Lords, the bowing gentlemen obtained a sort of victory; for it was thrown out. Yet that question had not a tithe of the interest of the present, and the result might be much the same. If this principle of free trade could be carried, in this instance, into fair application, it would be the first inroad into the most vicious system that had ever prevailed. The parties declared that they did not want a remission of duty, but only desired to be allowed to work as they had hitherto done; and, under all the circumstances, it was his conviction, that it would do far more substantial good to take off some of the taxes that pressed upon all ranks, and for the remission of which so many petitions had been presented. The present proposition certainly gave an advantage to the silk-manufacturer, and through him, to the wealthier classes of society. The lower orders might eventually feel the benefits of the alteration; but, if taxes were removed, the working classes would immediately experience the relief they so much required. The wise course seemed directly the reverse of that which had been pursued. Taxes ought to be repealed in the first instance; and if it afterwards turned out that the change could be effected with safety to our silk manufacture, let the plan now in agitation be carried into effect. The manufacturers were really in a situation of difficulty, and it was their anxious desire to be heard by counsel, that they might impress upon the House the nature of that difficulty, and shew what a variety and extent of interests were at stake. He must be forgiven if he joined with the hon. member for Taunton, in thinking that the petitioners had a just claim to have their case stated. If they could not by their counsel make out a case so much the better: the House would then have done its duty, both to the particular interest at stake, and to the general interest of commerce. He hoped, therefore, that a day would be named for the hearing of counsel.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

wished to make a very few observations. In the first place, he should appear ungrateful if he did not most distinctly acknowledge his sense of the favourable reception on all sides, of the principles which he had had the good fortune to bring into action; but he would take the liberty of saying, that he could not accept the compliment of the right hon. gentleman, at the expense of the noble lord, his predecessor in office. He was therefore, placed in an embarrassing situation, for nothing could be more embarrassing than to be complimented at the expense of others. He must say, however, that the sort of criticism made upon the conduct of the noble lord was by no means well-founded; for he could confidently state that no individual in the country was more strongly impressed with the soundness of the principles of free trade than the late chancellor of the Exchequer. That noble lord, indeed, had not carried any of them into effect during the last two or three years; but he was not open to censure, since the opportunity of doing so had not been afforded him. If any blame were due for the postponement, it was as much deserved by himself, as by lord Bexley; for, as president of the Board of Trade, if the circumstances had been favourable, he ought himself to have originated some measures of the kind. If entitled to any compliment, therefore, he could not accept it exclusively. The right hon. gentleman who had just taken his seat had approved entirely of the principle of the new system, but seemed to blame the government for not having come to some general understanding with the various branches of the silk trade, before the plan was brought forward. Now, if any judgment might be formed of the effect of antecedent, by the effect of subsequent communications with parties interested, he doubted much whether the measure would have been brought forward at all, if it depended upon the approbation of the silk-manufacturers. Nearly all the persons in the trade were naturally hostile to the changes. But, when the government was about to negociate on a broad principle, he thought it by no means necessary or proper, that they should negociate with the parties immediately concerned. He thought it, on the contrary, best to take the course consistent with those sound principles, instead of taking counsel from individuals whose interests were opposed to those principles. It was not, indeed, likely that any modification of his measures would satisfy all parties. Some proposed a delay of seven, others of five, others only of three years; for though, to a certain degree, they all joined in disapprobation of his plan, there was a considerable diversity as to the steps which they would take to mend it. As to the prayer of the petition, he did not go quite the length of the hon. and learned member (sir J. M.) in his general proposition, that where his mind was not likely to be changed by any thing that parties or their counsel might offer, he therefore would not consent to hear them. Where the interests of parties, or even individuals were affected, nothing was more common than to allow them to be heard by their counsel; and though he was not likely to be shaken in his opinion by any thing which Mr. Harrison, or any other counsel, could urge on a subject which he had already taken so much pains to examine, it would be harsh to prevent the parties from being heard. He should therefore not object to the motion, that the petitioners should be heard by their counsel, though he was bound in justice and candour to say, that he should grossly deceive them, if he were to hold out any hope that his opinion would be changed by any thing counsel could offer.

Mr. Whitmore

thought, that the course which ministers had pursued, was marked at once with cautious attention to particular interests, and with adherence to broad principles. He trusted that they would pursue that manly course; fully convinced, that if they followed it up to its legitimate consequences, there was no country in the world of which the prosperity would be so brilliant as that of England. A right hon. gentleman had spoken of the triumph which the people of Spitalfields had obtained in maintaining their local acts. The consequence of that triumph was the petition now before them; for there was no other reason why the manufacturers of Spitalfields should not be as confident as all the other manufacturers of the kingdom were, of the success of the measures now proposed by the government. A silk-manufacturer of Manchester, who had a large capital invested had assured him that the manufacturers of that place were entirely satisfied with the general measures which the government was pursuing, and looked forward with confidence to the result of them.

Lord George Cavendish

said, that though his constituents were satisfied with the measure, it was undoubtedly the duty of the House to proceed with caution. He should therefore support the proposition for hearing counsel.

Mr. Hume

hoped, that government would persevere in carrying the measures which they had proposed into effect. He was sorry to understand that a very feverish state of feeling had prevailed in the city during the whole of the day, in consequence of a rumour, that one of the lords of the Treasury had, in an interview which had taken place between him and some persons connected with the silktrade, intimated that the measures which had been proposed would undergo some change.

Mr. Huskisson

said, he could take upon himself confidently to state, that neither his noble friend, the first lord of the Treasury, nor any other member of the government had held out the slightest expectation that any change would be made in the plan which he had submitted to the House; and he would state further, on his own responsibility, that there was not the least idea entertained, by any member of the government, of proposing any change in that plan.

Lord A. Hamilton

called the attention of the House to the clause relative to cut silk. If that clause were passed in the form in which it now stood, the object of the right hon. gentleman would be defeated.

Mr. Baring

, in reply, observed, that the petition was really the petition of a committee, appointed by the general meeting of the silk-trade of London. Some very sharp remarks had been made upon him by his hon. and learned friend (sir J. Mackintosh), because, as his hon. and learned friend expressed it, he had been urging the ministers to go further into the system of free trade, while he objected to the measure before the House. Now, all he had said was, that a system, whatever it was, should be consistent in its parts. He wished his hon. and learned friend, who had spoken so eloquently on the subject, had given them his definition of what he meant by free trade, instead of favouring them with his declamation on a subject which (for there was a fashion in opinions as well as in clothes) was now so fashionable. As to the silk-trade, which his hon. and learned friend supposed the measures of the chancellor of the Exchequer were to make free, there were in the first place, most absurd restrictions on labour; and, in the second place, a protecting duty on foreign, in favour of British organzine silk. His hon. and learned friend could know nothing about the subject, or he would not have treated the trade as free. If they protected the throwsterer by a duty, they could not expect the manufacturer to thrive under foreign competition; if they maintained the restriction between masters and workmen, they could not expect the manufacturer to thrive under foreign competition. The chancellor of the Exchequer must abolish these restrictions before he could make a free trade. Nay, he must go further, and persuade the country gentlemen to consent to let the trade in bread be free. While the subsistence of the people was at twice the price here that it was in other countries, they might live on the purest system of political economy, but they might die with the book in their hand. It was absurd to think that we could compete with foreign countries in manufactures in which labour formed the principal part, while the restrictions on the trade in the most essential article of food existed.—He was now in a minority of the House; but he was so used to this, that it had ceased to have any effect on him. He had had the misfortune to be in a minority on that very system of corn laws; and he had had the satisfaction since to see that the warmest advocate of that system at that time, the right hon. the president of the Board of Trade, had come round to his opinion, and exhibited in his own person a pattern of as much inconsistency as he (Mr. B.) was said by some to have shewn on this subject. The hon. member for Coventry had said, that his constituents were now satisfied with the measures of the chancellor of the Exchequer. He had no doubt they were. The fact was, that the leading interests had been bribed into a concurrence in the measure. They would receive the drawbacks on their stocks. Some of them, he knew, would receive from 20 to 25,000l. as drawbacks; and as the immediate demand for silk had caused an increase of price, this would be a very considerable benefit. There had, in fact, been a great deal of jobbing in this measure. The persons who received the drawback now were glad of the boon, which, when the House came to pay it, they would find to be very serious; and they trusted, that after the course of the two years and half had elapsed, to raise such a clamour in the country as would prevent its being carried into execution. All that these gentlemen wanted was, to put their 20 or 25,000l. into their pockets. He felt grateful to the right hon. member for Knaresborough (Mr. Tierney), for his co-operation in promoting what, without his aid, would not have been obtained; namely, the liberty to the petitioners to be heard by their counsel.

Sir J. Mackintosh

said, that if his hon. friend meant by the term "sharp" that his remarks had been hostile towards him, he was mistaken; as there was no one whom he should be more justly sorry to address in such a temper, but he had used a part of the freedom of debate which it was allowable for his hon. friend or himself to use towards one another, or towards any other member; namely, that of contesting the justness of an adversary's conclusions, by shewing that one part of his argument was at variance with another. He had had the honour of serving under his hon. friend the commander-in-chief, in the small minority on the corn laws; but since the chancellor of the Exchequer had become a deserter from the opposing army, his hon. friend had not received him as kindly as a politic commander should have done. With regard to his opinion on free trade, it had been too long fixed—too strongly confirmed by argument and facts, and reflection—for him to imagine that it could be changed; but as to the mode in which the restrictions existing should be removed, he was ready to hear from the parties concerned, any argument as to the way in which the public faith was pledged, or any facts as to the manner in which their particular interests were affected. There was no inconsistency either in maintaining, that one set of restrictions should be removed while another set remained; for he did not remove one restriction in order to preserve another, but endeavoured to introduce a partial, in order to accelerate a general freedom. In reference to the observation of the chancellor of the Exchequer, on the mere technical point of hearing counsel, he laid but little stress; but this he would say, that firmness, on the part of the government and of parliament, in this case, was the policy which would shew greater respect to the judgment, and, in the long run, to the feelings, of the people, than to allow them, by the agitation of the question, to form hopes that must ultimately be disappointed. His hon. friend had said, that before two years elapsed such a clamour would be raised in the country, as would prevent the execution of the measure. He hoped not; and he rested his hope on the growing intelligence of the country—on the growing intelligence of the master manufacturers—on the growing intelligence of the working manufacturers. The intelligence among the latter body was, indeed, far greater than he could possibly have conceived, if he had not had an opportunity of witnessing it, by attending a lecture at the Mechanics' Institute, where among some hundreds of individuals, he had seen more information than he could have expected to have met with in any class of society. He had seen them manifest the intensest interest at the development of the most abstract principles of natural philosophy. Intelligence sparkled in their countenances while they watched, with a discrimination not to be deceived, the explanations and illustrations of the lecturer. From such a spirit of inquiry he looked for much. But, certainly, if the House dreaded clamour two years hence, the way to avert it was, not to hold out expectations which were inconsistent with policy and duty.

The Committee on the Bill was instructed to hear counsel accordingly.