Lords Sitting of 8 March 1824

SOCTH AMERICA.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he had, on Friday, intimated his intention of putting some questions to the noble earl opposite, on the subject of the papers which had been laid on the table, relating to South America; and though, from circumstances which had taken place elsewhere, some of the points on which he had wished for information might be considered as already answered, yet he still had three distinct questions on which he was desirous of obtaining explanation from the noble earl. The first question arose out of that part of the memorandum of the conference which took place between the Prince de Polignac and Mr. Canning in the month of October last, which related to the trade of this country with South America. It

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was stated, that permission to trade with the Spanish colonies had been conceded to Great Britain in the year 1810. Now, he certainly did not recollect to have seen any treaty to that effect, or any document containing a stipulation or concession of the kind described. He would therefore be glad to know, whether any such stipulation or concession existed, and where it was to be found. His second question related to the last despatch of Mr. Canning, dated Jan. 30, which contained an offer of mediation between Spain and her colonies, made on the part of this country. He thought that sufficient time had elapsed for receiving an answer to this despatch, which answer would, doubtless, enable his majesty's ministers to come to a final determination on the measures they were to adopt. He therefore wished to be informed, whether any answer had been received to this despatch. His third question was, perhaps, still more important. In the same despatch of Mr. Canning it was stated, that a communication of the sentiments of his majesty's government on the subject of South America had been made to each of the powers now invited to a conference at Paris. The communication thus made to Russia, Austria, Prussia, and France, it appeared, was in substance similar to what was stated in the despatch, and the conference with prince Polignac. He wished to ask the noble earl, whether his majesty's government were in possession of any answer to this communication from the powers to which it had been made.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he wished to give the noble marquis every satisfaction in his power to give, in the state in which the question stood. With respect to the first question, there doubtless never had been any distinct stipulation or concession by treaty, of permission to the merchants of this country to trade to South America; but, undoubtedly, ever since the year 1809, when the first separation of the Spanish colonies from the mother country took place, their lordships must be aware that a trade had de facto existed. In all the conferences which had taken place with the different governments of Spain, from the commencement of the separation of the colonies, before and after the restoration of Ferdinand, there never had been any question made as to the assent of the Spanish government to this commerce. Under these circumstances, he could
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state that, notwithstanding the various changes which had taken place in the government of Spain, there had always existed a complete understanding of the existence of a free commercial intercourse between the subjects of this country and the provinces of South America; but as to any express treaty or stipulation to that effect, there certainly was none. As to the second question of the noble marquis, namely, whether any answer had been received to the despatch of Mr. Canning, he had to reply in the negative. There certainly had been no answer returned as yet. His majesty's ministers had been merely informed of the receipt of the despatch, and of its communication to the Spanish government, but no official answer had been received from Madrid. With regard to the third question of the noble marquis as to the communication of the course adopted with respect to South America by his majesty's government to the other powers which had been mentioned, he had to state, that that course, as described in the conference, and also the despatch, had been communicated, but that no answer had hitherto been received in pursuance of such communication. He wished now to say one word on the general subject. The papers now in the possession of their lordships were communicated for the purpose of making known to parliament what was the actual position in which the country stood as to the question of the Spanish colonies. These papers sufficiently explained what course his majesty's government had held on this important question, what had already been done, and by what principles they had hitherto been guided, and would be guided in future. Under these circumstances, he conceived that his majesty's government were entitled to the confidence of parliament, and he had no hesitation in saying, that he would resist any proposition which implied the contrary. If the noble marquis should be of a different opinion, it would be competent for him to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, and in that case he should be prepared to justify the course pursued on this question by his majesty's government.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he understood, from what the noble earl had stated, that no answer had been received by his majesty's government to the communication made by them to the continental powers on the subject of South America;

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he wished also to be informed, whether any communication had been made to ministers of the answers returned by the governments of France, Russia, Austria, and Prussia, to the invitation of the Spanish government to a conference at Paris.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that no communication of the answers of those powers had been received by his majesty's government.
Lord Hollandwished to know whether the powers alluded to had made no communication of their intentions.
The Earl of Liverpoolreplied, that not the slightest intimation had been received. He would not say that conversations had not taken place with some of their ministers, but no official communication had been received from any of them.
Lord Hollandconsidered the answer given by the noble earl perfectly satisfactory. It was just what he expected from him.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he was also to understand, that no answer whatever had been received to Mr. Canning's despatch.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that that despatch had been communicated by sir W. A'Court to the Spanish minister, to be laid before the king at Madrid; but no answer, further than he had stated, had yet reached this country.
Earl Grosvenorreferred to the passage in the conference between Mr. Canning and prince Polignac, in which it is stated, that Great Britain "would consider any foreign interference by force or by menace, in the dispute between Spain and the colonies, as a motive for recognizing the latter without delay." Now, this language was stronger than that contained in the letter of Mr. Canning. He wished to know, whether ministers adhered to the intention of making any foreign menace a motive for recognizing the South American States?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaw no difference in sense between the two papers. With respect to the word "menace," its meaning was vague, and depended upon the purport given to it by the person who used it. He should understand by it, as it appeared in the papers, any threat accompanied by an overt act, which implied an intention of carrying such a threat into execution. He would not, however, say any thing further at present on a subject which would so shortly be again brought before their lordships.