Lords Sitting of 4 March 1824

ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
Earl Grosvenorpresented a petition which he slated was signed by a great number of respectable persons in Bury St. Edmund's, who prayed that their lordships would be pleased to consider of the means of producing a gradual Abolition of Slavery. In the mean time, they prayed for the amelioration of the condition of the unfortunate negroes in the colonies. They also prayed, that any measures which might be adopted should be accompanied with a due consideration of the interests of those persons who possessed estates in the colonies; in a word, that while justice was done to the slaves, those who might thereby suffer loss should be indemnified. It seemed to be an understanding, that that part of the question which concerned the conduct of the persons who composed the houses of assembly in the colonies should not be brought forward; that their proceedings, whether right or wrong—and as to that he did not then mean to give an opinion—bad better not be discussed. He should therefore at present abstain
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from entering into that part of the subject but he could not do so without some explanation. If he admitted the propriety of sometimes acceding to such an understanding, he must, at the same time, state, that this principle of reservation was one which ought to be looked upon with great jealousy; for any endeavour to smother or withhold the truth had seldom any other motive than a false delicacy. As a general principle, every thing like secrecy in public affairs was to be avoided. Let their lordships consider how far this system might be carried. A noble friend of his had given a notice respecting the state of Ireland, which involved the restoration of the whole of the civil rights of the Catholic population. Now, how were their lordships to come to a right decision if any circumstance respecting the state of the country was kept in the dark? He trusted, therefore, that when that question came on, the whole facts would be brought before the House. There was another question which might soon be expected to come before the House, to which he could not help alluding; namely, the intended grant for building new churches. He could not, at the present moment, pretend to say whether such an application of the public money was proper or not. It might be right—it might be wrong; but that was the first question to be settled, and that question could not be properly determined, while any secrecy was preserved with respect to the state of the established church. It was the duty of parliament, before this measure should be sanctioned, to inquire into the revenues of the establishment, and to see whether it was not able to build churches, without burthening the public. These illustrations were sufficient to prove the advantage of publicity, and that nothing was so injurious to the public interests as the suppression of facts, and secrecy. Returning to the subject of the petition, he concurred with those who were of opinion, that unless slavery were abolished in the colonies, there would never be an end to the slave trade. Let England but once say, that there shall be no slavery in her colonies, and from that moment the horrible traffic would be put down. Of the atrocities to which that trade gave birth, and the misery which its unhappy victims endured, nothing more would be heard: for slavery, and all its dreadful consequences, would cease throughout the world. Nothing, cer-

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tainly could be more advantageous to the planters themselves than such a change; for property in the colonies would be benefitted by it, to a degree not anticipated by those who had not paid attention to the subject. He could assure their lordships, that there were persons who had tried the experiment of free labour, and that it had answered to their perfect satisfaction. The instructions which his majesty's ministers had sent out to the colonies, with a view to the gradual improvement of the condition of the negroes, and final abolition, were moderate and judicious. He wished, however, to have it understood, that his silence upon this question would depend upon his opinion, according to the information he should receive, of the sincerity of ministers, in the disposition they had manifested by their instructions.
Earl Bathurstsaid, he would not enter into the questions on which the noble earl had touched, but he wished to take that opportunity of informing the House, that to-morrow se'nnight he would lay on the table, by his Majesty's command, certain papers relating to the state of negro slavery in the colonies. He would avail himself of that occasion to give an explanation of the measures which his majesty's ministers had thought proper to adopt, for the moral and religious improvement of the negroes, in pursuance of the resolution of the House of Commons.

SOUTH AMERICA.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to lay on the table, by his majesty's commands, certain communications which had passed between his Majesty's government and the governments of France and Spain, relating to the provinces of South America. The subject had been adverted to in his majesty's Speech at the opening of the session, but the correspondence could not then with propriety be made public. As however, the causes which prevented them from being made public no longer existed, there could be no objection to their being laid before their lordships.
The Marquis of Lansdownwished to know whether it was the intention of the noble earl to found any motion on the subject of these papers, or to recommend to the House any proceeding respecting them.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he did not intend to make any motion or propose to their lordships any proceeding connected with these papers. They were laid on the
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table solely for the information of the House, and to enable their lordships to form their judgment on the subject.
The Marquis of Lansdownreminded their lordships, that soon after the commencement of the session, he had intimated his intention of bringing forward a motion on the state of the late Spanish colonies. He was not aware that the papers now laid on the table could contain any thing which ought to make him alter his intention; but having always been desirous of allowing his majesty's ministers to explain their system of policy with respect to those states, and not wishing to embarrass in any way the question, he should wait until he had read the papers, before he came to any final determination respecting his notice.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he had given notice of his intention to move for a committee to take into consideration the office of Clerk of Parliament. It was then his wish to postpone this proceeding until two noble lords, who had always paid particular attention to the official business of parliament, should be both in town. He understood, however, that the attendance of one of those noble lords could not be obtained until an advanced period of the session; but as the other noble lord whose assistance he wished to obtain, was present, he did not think it proper to delay carrying his intention into effect any longer. He therefore now gave notice, that he would on Monday next move their lordships to appoint a committee.

BOUNTIES ON IRISH LINEN.
The Marquis of Lansdownwished to advert to a subject which had been touched on during the last sitting of the House; namely, the means of ameliorating the state of the south of Ireland. In a conversation which had taken place on the proposal of his Majesty's government for withdrawing the bounty on Irish linen, he understood it to have been stated by the noble earl opposite, that the reason why the bounty was to be immediately taken from the coarse Irish linen was, that no exportation of that article had taken place from Ireland. Now, when the noble earl made this statement, he could not be aware of the real state of the case. The fact was, that during the two last years there had been an increasing exportation of coarse linens from the north of Ireland; and he was persuaded that the encouragement of this manufac-

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ture might greatly assist in removing that poverty with which the country was afflicted. It might be rendered a valuable stimulus to the industry of the distressed population. He believed that all who had bestowed any attention on the improvement of that part of the united kingdom, looked forward to the establishment of linen manufactories in the south of Ireland as a great means of amelioration. He was no advocate for bounties, though he considered them far less mischievous to trade than prohibitions and restrictions: but, though he admitted the evil which was attached to bounties, he must observe, that there was a great difference between enacting them, and suddenly repealing them, after they had for a certain time existed. He therefore hoped that the noble earl would consider the effect of rashly discouraging, or even of appearing to discourage, a rising manufacture which had just begun to be profitable, and probably to find a demand in the markets of South America. It should also be recollected, that this manufacture was peculiarly calculated to give to the poor population of the South of Ireland that species of employment in which they could with the greatest facility be engaged, while it was at the same time that kind of enterprise in which the land-owners could, with the greatest safety embark their property. He should conclude with moving for an account of the quantity of coarse linen exported from Ireland during the years 1822 and 1823.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that when be had stated that no coarse linens were exported from Ireland, he had been induced to make that observation from knowing that the bounty on it had never been drawn. At least such was the information he had received, and he believed it to be correct. He would, however, state8 for the satisfaction of the noble marquis and the House, that, as the bounty on fine linen, was not to be suddenly withdrawn, it was intended to adopt the same principle with respect to the bounty on coarse linen, and to reduce it gradually. Thus the evil apprehended from the abolition of the bounty on these two manufactures would be guarded against as far as possible. With regard to the encouragement which the noble marquis looked forward to for this manufacture, he trusted it would be realized. He was confident, that if the country continued to enjoy the blessings of peace, the diffusion
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of capital would have the most beneficial effect on all branches of industry in Ireland. The motion was agreed to.