Lords Sitting of 2 March 1824

HEARING OF APPEALS.
Lord Kingsaid, he wished to call their lordships' attention to a subject which appeared to him to be of great importance. He found that his attendance was required in that House for hearing appeal causes at the bar. Now, he wished to learn, from such of their lordships as were better acquainted with the subject than he could pretend to be, whether he was, in consequence of this order, which required him to hear causes, also bound to vote on them? If he must vote, he was also desirous of knowing whether, in the case of his happening to withdraw himself before the hearing of a cause should be concluded, he would still be obliged to give his vote upon it? If these inquiries should be answered in the affirmative, he would then be glad to be informed, how he should act on a cause which was to come on, he believed, on Monday next. The cause to which he alluded was intituled "Connolly and wife," and had been heard before. For his part, however, he knew nothing of it; and he must therefore beg for instruction from their lordships how he was to vote. He had no idea whatever of the case, and was most anxious to do no injustice either to Connolly or his wife. But, would none of their lordships tell him what he was to do? Was he to take a hint from some one of the big wigs which their lordships occasionally saw rising a few inches above the bar? Or was he to be directed by that equilateral triangular hat which lay there? [looking towards the woolsack.] Or might he vote, as was done in some cases, without hearing any thing on the subject, by proxy? Their lordships had, in their wisdom determined, that each peer was to hear only fractions of causes; but, how was this to be reconciled with the mode of voting by wholesale? Now, if vote he must on the above case, he hoped their lordships would put him in possession of the means of voting rightly. He should doubtless be furnished with

641
the notes which he supposed the peers who had already sat on the case must have taken; for they were the judges, and it was the practice of judges to take notes of the causes which were heard before them. Their lordships well knew the value which was placed on the notes of judges, and he would wish those taken in that House to be printed. If, however, it should unfortunately happen that the peers who had heard this case, had taken no notes, and that he would nevertheless be required to vote on it, then he would most humbly beg of their lordships to amend their order, and direct that all peers sitting on appeals, should keep notes of the cases they heard. Thus their lordships would have before them the wisdom and information of their predecessors, and the labours of the sitting part of the peers would enable those who had to vote, to perform their judicial functions properly. This new mode of hearing causes, he believed, had been invented for the purpose of expediting the business of the House; but it appeared to him to have only the effect of keeping away the noble and learned lord whom he considered the most efficient judge of appeal causes. The noble and learned lord was a very great friend of the church; but, what would the noble and learned lord say to a rector, who, wishing to be relieved from the burthen of his clerical duties, should get a curate to perform them for him, but instead of paying the curate out of his own emoluments should leave him to be paid by the parish? This would doubtless appear to the noble and learned lord a very singular arrangement. Having put one ecclesiastical case, he would, with their lordships' leave, suppose another. What would be thought of a bishop, or a clergyman, who should declare from his pulpit, that a person had stated "an utter falsehood?." What would the noble and learned lord think of the reverend person who should thus express himself respecting the character of another, in a place where what he said could not be answered? He was quite sure that the noble and learned lord would be the last man in the world to give his approbation to such conduct.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he had to apologize to their lordships for the change he had thought it necessary to make, in his motion for sum-
642
moning the House. They were aware that he had given notice of his intention to bring forward, on this day, a very extensive question relative to the state of Ireland; but as he could not at the present time expect the assistance of many noble lords intimately acquainted with Irish affairs, and as he had reason to hope that those noble lords would be able to attend at a future period, he had resolved to postpone his motion. Another reason had also induced him to postpone it; namely, his wish to collect the most accurate and ample information, before he proceeded to call their lordships' attention to the subject. He had intended to move that day for a great variety of papers tending to illustrate the state of Ireland; but he would now confine himself to those documents to the production of which he understood there would be no objection. It appeared from what had taken place elsewhere, that it was intended to take off the bounty at present granted on the exportation of Irish linen—to take it gradually off from the fine, but immediately from the coarse. Considering the state of Ireland, this was a most important I feature in the financial arrangement of the I chancellor of the Exchequer for the year; and he was surprised that it did not occur to his majesty's ministers, that the taking off the bounty on Irish linens, and especially so suddenly off the coarse linen, must tend greatly to increase the evil under which that country laboured, which was the want of employment. He thought that the same political considerations which had last year prevented the removal of the duty on foreign linen, should have, on the present occasion, saved the infant manufacture of the north of Ireland. If the bounty were taken off the coarse linen, the manufacture of which was but recently established, a great addition would be made to the distress of the starving population. And here he could not help noticing an item of the public expenditure, as it had been arranged in another place, in consequence of the receipt of part of the debt due to this country by Austria. He had formerly expressed an opinion, that not a farthing of that debt would be repaid. The sum received was called a "God-send;" and he had no objection to the term, but he thought it would with great propriety be called so, if the money were employed in rescuing the distressed population of the south of Ireland from starvation. In this

643
way it would be much better applied than in repairing royal palaces, or building churches; to which objects, however, as far as they were necessary, he had no objection to the application of public money. He believed, indeed, that in the metropolis the power of hearing divine service was confined almost exclusively to the rich, and that in Ireland the greater part of the Protestant churches were in a state of dilapidation. He must again express his surprise, that the Austrian Godsend was not allowed to fall upon Ireland, instead of being applied in the way proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He must, however, repeat, that he had no objection to building churches, if they were really wanted; and he had always been an advocate for keeping Windsor Castle in repair, but wished that no sum beyond what was necessary should be so expended. With regard to the papers he wished to obtain, he should now move for an account of all the sums granted by parliament for public works, and for the employment of the poor in Ireland during the last seven years; for sums advanced by way of loans of Exchequer-bills or otherwise; the sums paid on the presentments of grand juries; the payments out of the consolidated fund, &c. But he did not think he could do full justice to the task he had undertaken, without stating the truth, and the whole truth, respecting the church establishment of Ireland. He therefore intended to move for an account of the number of parishes and parish churches in Ireland; the extent of the parishes; the number of families residing in each; the number of communicants in the established churches; the number of Roman Catholic families; and other documents of this kind. In moving for these papers he had no other wish than that of bringing under the consideration of their lordships, the real situation of Ireland. The noble earl concluded by moving for the papers he had described; and also that their lordships, be summoned for the 5th of April next.
The Earl of Liverpoolassured their lordships, that he wished not on the present occasion to say one word as to the general question. Neither did he rise to oppose the motion, to which he had no objection; but he wished to say a few words on two subjects, which had been adverted to by the noble earl. The first was relative to that sum of money which had been called a "God-send," and which,
644
the noble earl was surprised, had not been in great part appropriated to Ireland. But their lordships must be aware, that the whole of that sum had been included in the general account of the resources for the year; and if two specific portions of it had been mentioned by the chancellor of the Exchequer, as appropriated to building churches, and repairing Windsor Castle, they must be considered as coming from the general resources of the country. The noble earl, however, appeared to suppose that, while these sums were so appropriated, no money whatever was granted for Ireland. Why, the very reverse was the fact. Large sums were every year voted for that country, and while the noble earl complained of the money being spent here, it was a fact, that only Ireland and Scotland had recently received grants of the public money. Except public works which were necessarily carried on in England, there were no grants of money whatever for this country. Exchequer bills, indeed, bearing interest, had sometimes been advanced, but no money had been bestowed as absolute gifts. In Scotland and Ireland, the contrary was the case; and at this moment there were several works going on in the latter country at the public expense. He thought it proper to make these observations, to set the House right as to the statement of the noble earl, and not to let it be supposed, that the government and parliament had never granted money for the service of Ireland. The other point to which he wished to call the attention of their lordships was, the bounties on linen. In his mind, there could be no doubt as to the general question. There could be no greater absurdity than to grant a bounty which was to be taken out of the pockets of the people on the exportation of a commodity manufactured by them. It was another question, however, when such a bounty had been established, to decide whether it should be immediately taken off or not. If any exportation of coarse linen took place under this system it might, indeed, be an injury to change it; but there was no exportation of coarse linen from Ireland, and this, therefore, was for that trade which the noble earl wished to protect only a nominal advantage; and he could not believe that the loss of a nominal advantage could be of any injury to the linen trade. He should not oppose the motion.
Lord Kingwas aware that there was no want of grants of the public money. There were Irish jobs, Scotch jobs, and Church jobs in abundance, but the most enormous job of all was the 100,000 l. a year to the Irish churches.
The motions were agreed to.