HL Deb 10 June 1824 vol 11 cc1100-2

The Marquis of Downshire moved the second reading of the bill for establishing a Joint-stock Company to work mines in Ireland.

The Earl of Lauderdale

wished to remind their lordships, that if they proceeded in the way proposed, they would violate the standing order which they had made only a few days ago, which required that every bill of this description, before its being read a second time, should be referred to a committee to report whether three-fourths of the capital of the company had been paid up. He would not oppose the motion.

The Earl of Harrowby

considered the suspension of the order in the present case highly proper. The noble marquis had already proposed to except Irish mines from the operation of the standing order, which he thought ought to be done, as those works were not to be classed with the numerous bubbles against which it was the object of their lordships to guard. As, in considering the state of Ireland, their lordships had thought it right for the purpose of securing the tranquillity of that country, to overlook those great principles of legislation by which they were usually guided, so it surely might be proper, for the sake of finding employment to a miserable population, to overlook some of those principles of political economy, the general advantage of adhering to which they acknowledged. He therefore did not regret that he should be the individual who, on the same night that he had to move the passing of the Insurrection act, had also to propose the means of facilitating the progress of a bill of the nature of that now before their lordships. He certainly did not think that this bill was one of a kind which ought ever to have come under the operation of the standing order. It was morally impossible that any great amount of capital would be wanted at the outset of such a speculation as that which the bill tended to encourage; and it would, therefore, be wrong to require such a proportion of the subscription as three-fourths to be paid up in the first instance. It was not reasonable to expect that persons entering into a project for working mines in Ireland, would be willing to divert 400,000l. from other purposes of trade and invest it in the funds or Exchequer-bills, where they would get only three-per cent interest, before they could possibly know that such a sum would be wanted. The noble earl concluded by moving "That the standing order be now suspended."

The Marquis of Lansdown

expressed his full concurrence in the motion. If a few days ago he had thought that, upon the ground of peculiar circumstances, Ireland ought to be excepted from the operation of the standing order, he could not refuse his consent to the suspension of that order, for the purpose of forwarding the measure now before the House. However proper in principle the standing order might be, and however right its practical application might be in a country abounding in capital, he was convinced that it would be extremely wrong to enforce it with respect to a poor country. In Ireland, where the want of capital was so much felt, every facility to its transmission ought to be offered. But even with regard to this country, though the principle of the order could not be contested, he, with all respect for the judgment of their lordships, thought they would have done better not to have passed it. He could, indeed, see no reason why their lordships should not consider every individual case which came before them on its own merits. There could be no occasion for establishing so many general rules, unless it were wished, by their means, At once to get conviction in the lump, And come to short conclusions by a jump. The increasing of the standing orders was attended with much inconvenience. He never approved of the multiplication of the standing orders; but he confessed he should wish one to be made to the effect, that no standing order should be adopted, until it had lain for three weeks on the table of the House, and had been read three different times at fixed intervals.

The Earl of Lauderdale

reminded their lordships of the grounds on which the order had been adopted, and adverted to the nature of the speculations against which it was directed. When such absurd and mischievous projects were afloat, he thought it high time for at least one, branch of the legislature to mark them with its disapprobation. The schemes, with respect to which the standing order operated, were very different from those companies which were excepted. The canal property of this country amounted to about 13,000,000l., and not 87,000l. of the capital remained to be paid up. The capital of the dock companies was all paid up. Establishments of that description were under the necessity of employing a great proportion of their capital in carrying on their works; but it was not so with speculating companies.

The bill was read a second time.