Lords Sitting of 27 May 1823

COMMUTATION OF TITHES IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of Lansdownrose to present a petition, signed by about three-fourths of the beneficed; clergy and lay-impropriators of the united diocese of Limerick, Ardfert, and Abadoe, including the whole of the county Kerry, and a considerable part of the county Cork, praying for a Commutation of Tithes. The noble marquis observed, that the district from which the petition came was part of the most populous region of the south of Ireland, and the petitioners prayed the House, on the principles of Justice, to pass into an act some measure for enforcing such commutation. If the Opinion of any persons

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was entitled to peculiar weight on this question, it was that of the petitioners, who resided on the spot, who knew the subject practically, and who were acquainted with all the operations of the system under which they lived. It was reasonable to believe that such men felt an interest and regard for the happiness and prosperity of the population with whom they were concerned, as well as for their own. In both points of view, the petitioners considered the question, and they stated it to be essential to the happiness of the country, to the preservation of order, and to their own interests, that some equitable principle of commutation should be acted upon, and made part of the permanent law of the land. He trusted the House would feel it to be an additional argument in favour of such a measure, that it would take out of the Statute-book laws of the most oppressive and' tyrannical kind, laws which he was convinced nothing could ever induce the legislature to pass with reference to this country, but which were enforced in Ireland, on the alleged ground that they were absolutely necessary to carry into effect the system of tithes, as they now existed in that kingdom. Laws so tyrannical and so unjust ought not to be afforded the opportunity of execution. He should be doing great injustice to the Protestant clergy of Ireland, however, if he did not state, that they seldom had recourse to those laws, to the extent to which they might enforce them; but he should call to the attention of their lordships, that, under all systems liable to abuse, it was in the power of a minority, by acting up to the extent of the authority and discretion vested in them, to spread wider the sphere of disturbance, and lay the foundation, as it had been laid in places heretofore peaceable, of irritation, discontent, and even of actual insurrection. While there was a minority who were thus inclined to administer the laws, although the majority consisted of more humane, considerate, and patriotic persons, who took a right view of the system as it operated on themselves, their flocks, and the best interests of their country, yet their lordships would see substantial grounds for taking the prayer of the petition into their serious consideration. The argument chiefly replied on in opposition to a practical measure, was, that the property to be commuted was sacred and inviolable. That it was sacred, as the pos-
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session of particular persons, independently of the object and duties to which it had been originally appropriated, he could never allow; but he was free to admit, that such property was sacred to the purposes of religion, to the moral instruction of the people, and to their happiness. He hoped, that such steps would be taken as would diminish, instead of in creasing, the line of separation that an unwise system had drawn between the church and the people of Ireland.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The Archbishop of Canterburyrose to move the second reading of this bill. The right reverend prelate observed, that the portion of the bill, which; in that stage demanded their lordships' particular attention, was the clause relative to the voidability of marriages. By the old law, the marriages of minors, without Consent, were declared void ab initio; but the committee, after due deliberation, thought it would be less objectionable to render such marriages voidable within a year. The provisions for the prevention of clandestine marriages, under the old law, were too severe to be brought into execution with effect, and improper advantage had been but too frequently taken of them. The committee, in endeavouring to repair the mischief, found themselves involved in great difficulties, among which they had to make their option. They had no course but either to make the consent of parents or their representatives unnecessary, and thus, on a most important occasion take away the protection of the law from the exercise of the parental office; or to restore the nullity clause of the 26th Geo. 2nd, by which the marriage of a minor without consent might be at any subsequent and indefinite period set aside; or to adopt the mitigated course as shaped out in this bill; by which parents, or those who represented them, could within a year annul the unlawful marriage. This last mode he considered the least objectionable; though it was not altogether without objection. Those who opposed the voidability of marriages, went upon the principle, that those whom God had joined should net be separated by man; but it should be recollected, that marriages might be obtained in a manner that the laws of man would not allow, and therefore could not be approved of by the laws of God. The sacredness of

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marriages ought to be maintained; but its inviolability might be carried to an injurious extreme. Marriage was the foundation of civil society, and it was of the first importance that its engagements should have the combined protection of the law of the land, and the sanctions of religion.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that we were now under the old law, with the exception of that clause by which marriages, under certain, circumstances, were declared void. We had been two or three months under that law without suffering any inconvenience; and he hoped the House would bear that in mind when considering the change introduced by this bill. This bill was not that full and comprehensive measure which the House had reason to expect, from the promises held out by its most reverend and learned promoters. It contained little more than the last bill, and left several points untouched, on which it was of the greatest moment that no doubt should exist. The validity of all marriages in foreign countries ought to be cleared up, and subjects residing abroad should be able to ascertain the precise situation in which they stood in this respect, without the necessity of an application to a court of justice. It would be recollected, that a petition had been presented relative to this subject from the Russia company, when a learned lord had declared that he had no doubt of the validity of such marriages. Doubts, however, were entertained by the parties themselves, and they ought to be removed by positive enactment. Facilities on this important point ought to be afforded to Dissenters, and to Roman Catholics. In Ireland, when both the parties were Catholics, the marriage was valid if performed according to the rites of that church; but Catholics coming to this country might not think of having recourse to the formalities made necessary here, and the marriage might in consequence be invalid, and was not this an: encouragement to immorality? With regard to the marriages of minors, as the law stood now, it operated differently on the rich and the poor; for where there was no property to render the invalidation an object, the most incestuous marriages might now be tolerated. He thought that, in order to equalize the law and maintain the principle consistently, such marriages should be declared null and void ab initio. With respect to the clause to which the right
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reverend prelate had called the attention of the. House, it seemed to be the general feeling of the country, that marriages by banns should remain in the same state ad they now stood and had stood for many years back. The clause of voidability was in fact nugatory. But, if they were as anxious to respect parental rights as the right rev. prelate would have them, they should respect them in the father of the woman as well as of the man. But this clause did no such thing: it operated in favour of the man and against the woman. It did all that could be done to encourage seduction under the semblance of marriage. Instead of being introduced by the right rev. prelate and a learned lord, it would seem as if it were the production of a set of dissolute minors, who were desirous of legislating according to the morals professed by the theatrical libertine Don Juan.
The Earl of Westmorland,opposed the clause, as an infringement on the religion, the morals, and the laws of the country, as well as on the rights of property.
The Bishop of Chesteropposed the clause, as being directly contrary to the word of God. It was not a clause fits to be enacted by a Christian legislature. At all events he would not be one to give his vote for putting asunder those whom God had joined.
The Bishop of Derrywas anxious that it should not go forth to the public, that incestuous marriages could be legitimate under any circumstances. If a man should marry his daughter, or any descendant of her's, the progeny of that, marriage must be illegitimate, the marriage itself being void ab initio.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he would not be positive as to the correctness of his observation, but he would rather have the exposition of the law from a learned lord, than from the reverend prelate.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, they had been told the present was, not a proper time to discuss, the measure;, therefore, though he had been appealed to, he would only say that he was clearly of opinion, that the law of scripture, as well, as the law of the land, should be a good deal more considered than it appeared to him they had yet been.
The bill was then read a second time.