Lords Sitting of 18 July 1823

ROMAN CATHOLIC ESTABLISHMENTS.
Lord Colchestersaid;—In pursuance of the notice which I have given, I propose now to move for certain returns of Roman Catholic chapels, colleges, and religious houses. The grounds upon which I presume to submit this motion to the consideration of your Lordships, are these.; that by the votes of the other House of parliament, a measure appears to have been brought forward within the present month, for enabling Roman Catholics to make endowments for what are described to be pious and charitable purposes; and
* Extract from votes Ho. Comm.3 July

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I have waited till the latest possible moment, as your lordships will perceive, in order to see the nature and scope of the bill to be brought in.; but as the bill has not yet been presented, according to the leave asked and obtained, I must consider the measure as standing over for another session; and therefore, I think it will be desirable to endeavour to collect, during the intermediate recess, such materials as may enable us to judge how far it may be expedient, or not, to adopt that measure, when it comes before us in a future session of parliament.
The form of proceeding by which such information may be obtained in the most usual course, is by address to the Crown, for returns to be made from the parochial clergy of each diocess, in the same mode as this House pursued in the years 1767 and 1780, for obtaining accounts of the Roman Catholic population.†
The objects of the present motion are, 1st to obtain a return of the number of Roman Catholic chapels in England, all of which are, at present, very wisely and properly tolerated and protected by law; but with regard even to these, it may become a fair question, how far we should hereafter allow to them a perpetuity of existence by endowment, and so to ingraft them into the fixed institutions of a Protestant country.
The 2nd object is, to obtain a return of the Roman Catholic schools, academies, and colleges, as they are termed in the statute 31 Geo. 3. c. 32. or, in other words, of the Roman Catholic places of education; and this class of institutions, protected as they now are by law, may come within the same question of policy with respect to their permanent establishment by gifts and grants of property; and that of Maynooth in Ireland, the only one hitherto made permanent by law, in any part of the United Kindom, has, I believe, upon. experience, lost much of the favour with which it was regarded by its original promoters.
The 3rd and last object of this motion
1823, p. 550: 'Bill to enable Roman Catholics to make and execute gifts and grants for pious and charitable purposes; ordered to be brought in by sir Henry Parnell and sir john Newport."
†See Lords Journals, 22 May 1767; Address: and 21 Dec. 1767, Returns presented; 3 July 1780, Address; and 5 March 1781, Returns presented.
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relates to the religious houses of the Roman Catholics, such as convents, monasteries, and the like; and with this may be taken also the return of persons belonging to such monastic establishments, and of those also who, though not so attached, are bound by monastic or religious vows.
My lords, I am well aware that the existence, or, at least, the extent of these establishments has been brought into doubt, by many persons who are otherwise well informed.
But of the establishments at Stonyhurst in England and Clongowe's Wood in Ireland, it is notorious upon the spot, that the managers of each declare themselves to be Jesuits, and that they publicly wear the habit of their order. It is also well known, that the superior of each of those houses assisted at Rome in the election of the present general of the Jesuits; and not longer ago than last year, the noble secretary of state for the foreign department, entertained so strong an apprehension of the mischief which might arise from a larger importation of Jesuits into this country, that he thought it necessary to remonstrate with the court of Rome (of course not officially) against the plan then on foot for placing all the English and Irish students under Jesuit professors.*
The Benedictines also have recently formed a splendid establishment for themselves in the county of Somerset; and they, also publicly traverse the country in the habit of their order; and other religious houses, of other denominations, but of like character, abound in various parts of England, and are daily spreading themselves about us in all directions, exerting themselves with the same restless
* In what manner the order of Jesuits is and is not revived in England, will appear from the following extract of a letter from cardinal Consalvi to Dr. Poynter, vicar apostolic of the London district, to be communicated by him to his majesty's government:—"Quare Amplitudo tua Regis ministries poterit declarare Societatem Jesu in Angliâ (cum civilis potestas eidem recipiendæ ac revocandæ repugnet) nondum restitutam censeri; quamvis generation ita restitute sit, ut, si Guberniumillam admittere vellet, opus non esset peculiari Apostolicâ Concessione ut eadem Societas in Anglia recipietur. 18 April, 1820.

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activity, in making or purchasing converts.
When I had the honour some years ago, to hold the office of chief secretary in Ireland, authentic papers were put into my hands, whereby it appeared that the religious houses then existing there, were not less than 69 of all orders, Dominicans, Franciscans, Capuchins, Carmelites, and so forth; fifty-three of these religious houses were for men, and sixteen for women; besides a number of persons unattached to those religious houses, but bound by monastic vows, and consisting nearly of as many hundreds as the former. And I mention this on the present occasion, only to show, that it is material that by such a return as is now proposed, we should know the numbers of those who are unattached as well as of those who belong to public convents or monasteries.
It is, my lords, upon these grounds, and in contemplation of the measure which we have reason to expect will be brought forward in another session, that I wish to bring these matters under the view of parliament, in order that we may not be called upon to decide without full knowledge of the facts, how far we may wisely or safely allow these various Roman Catholic institutions to take perpetual root in this Protestant country, to a degree, and in a manner wholly unexampled since the days of the Reformation. I, therefore, beg leave to move—"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to give directions to the Archbishops and Bishops of England, to procure from their Parochial Clergy, and in his Majesty's name to require from all persons invested with Peculiar jurisdictions in their respective diocesscs;—An Account of all chapels, schools, academics, colleges and religious houses, belonging to Roman Catholics, or reputed Roman Catholics; specifying to what religious order such colleges or religious houses are reputed to belong:—And also, an Account of the number of Roman Catholics, or reputed Roman Catholics, belonging, or reputed to belong, to every such school, academy, college or religious house, or to any religious order or society of persons bound by monastic or religious vows:—And that his Majesty will order such Accounts to be laid before this House, on the first day of the next session of parliament."
The Earl of Rosslynsaid, that he was
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extremely sorry to hear the motion made by the noble lord, as he felt it incumbent on him to oppose it. The motion, in his opinion, was made upon no distinct grounds, and was calculated to produce much mischief. The presumed bill from the other House, to which the motion had reference, was not before their lordships, and, perhaps, it never might be before them; nor after the recent vote of their lordships in refusing the elective franchise was there much chance of its passing this House; so that in reality, there was no measure that called for the noble lord's motion; while, on the other hand, there was ample time for their lordships to stand upon the defensive when assailed by the so much apprehended bill. It would, therefore, be more becoming to abstain from such motions as those submitted by the noble lord, till their lordships saw clearly what the House of Commons would do. He had before said, that the noble lord (Colchester) had not made out sufficient grounds for the motion he had submitted to the House; and it was also most singular that the motion did not extend to Ireland, as though the noble lord feared to embrace that part of the United Kingdom in it. With respect to the notice of a bill in the other House, upon which the noble lord's motion rested, it should be recollected, that this embryo measure went only to provide for the education of Roman Catholics in Ireland; and, therefore, he should like to know upon what principle the House wished to require that species of information with regard to England, where no apprehension of danger could possibly be felt? It was known, indeed, that no monastic institutions could legally be rooted in England; and the noble lord, aware of this point, called them reputedly such. Why excite, then, a feeling of commotion and disturbance, so calculated to hold out the Roman Catholics not merely to popular clamour, but also to attacks? He disliked, more than all, that the established clergy of this country should be made the instruments of such an inquisition, and this for no beneficial end. With regard to the inquiry as to the number of persons now under the conscientious force of monastic vows, he never knew so abominably inquisitorial a motion as that which the noble lord had proposed to the House; and he must say, that it came forward with a peculiarly ill grace at this season of the year, when the passing of bills was

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finishing, and when the formalities of the House were suspended by a tacit consent on both sides, so that no summons could be issued for the attendance of noble lords. The motion was, to say the least against it, excessively rash, fraught, in his opinion, with much danger, and could be productive of no manner of good. He should, therefore, give his decided opposition to the motion.
The Lord Chancellortook this opportunity to defend the conduct of the noble baron (Colchester) in submitting the motion he had made; for there could exist no doubt whatever, that the bill so likely to have originated in the other House was intended to repeal the law of the land with respect to religious houses. If hereafter such a measure should ever reach this House, he had only to hope that it would not arrive at a late period of the session next year, but that full opportunity would be given to examine and discuss it. But at present he hoped the noble lord (Colchester) to the honour and purity of whose motives all who knew him must do justice, would consent to withdraw his motion.
Lord Colchester, in reply, said:—Of the few observations upon the present state of this question which it now becomes my duty to offer to your lordships, the first shall be addressed to the speech of the noble earl who has opposed the motion. The measure announced by the votes of the other House, made the call imperative upon me, and those who hold the same opinions, to prepare to meet it; and if the noble lord complains of the lateness of the time at which this motion is made, let the blame of delay lie upon those who proposed their own measure at so late a period of the session. The bill to be presented in the other House extends, according to its title, to the whole of the United Kingdom; and the noble lord mis-states the fact in asserting that it relates exclusively to Ireland. When he objects to the mode of instituting this inquiry in England, through the parochial clergy, he forgets or overlooks the very course adopted upon the former occasions of 1767 and 1780; and the right reverend prelates now present can inform him, that there is no novelty whatever in this sort of communication between them and their clergy, respecting the religious state of their parishes, such inquiries are continually recurring upon their visitations. As to Ireland, when he asks, why this in-
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quiry, if fit at all, is not extended in the same mode to Ireland, it is obvious that the different state of the church there, calls for a different course, and such inquiries there must be made through the local government. With respect to the harsh language which the noble lord has thought fit to address to me upon this occasion, the motives which he has imputed, and the tendency with which he charges my conduct, upon this occasion, I shall only reply, that I hear them with perfect indifference, and am well contented that the people of England should judge between us. It remains for me next to advert to the appeal which the noble and learned lord has been pleased to address to me; and to such an appeal so made, knowing his opinions upon the whole of this subject to be so much in unison with my own, I shall concede so far as to propose withdrawing this motion for the present, if such be the pleasure of the House: but in accordance also with the same recommendation, I now take the opportunity of giving this public and formal notice, that if any such bill as that lately moved for, shall be brought forward in the next session of parliament, I shall certainly renew the same motion for the same returns.
This motion was accordingly, with leave of the House, withdrawn.