IRISH TITHES COMPOSITION BILL. (Hansard, 9 July 1823)

The Earl of Liverpool
, although he believed that ultimately it would be necessary to add a compulsory clause to the bill, was of opinion, that more advantage would result from trying it as a voluntary measure in the first instance.

Lord King
said, that without the introduction of a compulsory clause the bill would be nugatory. That the reverend lords opposite well knew. To get rid of the tithes in Ireland was, in his opinion, the best means of affording Ireland relief. The church of Ireland was a principal cause of 1490 the unhappy condition of that country. The established religion insulted the people by its ascendancy, and impoverished them by its exactions. It made that country a hell upon earth. It held forth, not the principles of peace but the sword. It did not, as it ought, promote good will among men. Indeed those who lived by it did not venture to assert that it did good. It was a profanation of the name of Christianity. The situation of the Irish people was really deplorable. An Irish farmer might not improperly be compared to a jaded mare, which was compelled to carry two riders, one on the saddle and the other on the crupper. The poor farmer had to bear his own priest and one of the established church also. One spurred him in the shoulder, and the other in the flank. He knew that some people thought that a large church establishment was a good thing, and that there could be no dignity or grace in the performance of religious duties without it. Now, he would appeal to the noble Secretary of State opposite, whether he did not see the service performed in Hatton-garden with as much grace and dignity as ever it had been performed by a bishop. Yet the service in Hatton-garden was not bottomed on tithes. He might also appeal to the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, who, he understood, had also been to Hatton-garden, as to the excellent manner in which the service was performed there. If the minister had been aware that he had for a hearer the protector of mitred heads, he might in the language of his church have advised him not to promote priests with priestly hearts. The noble lord concluded by declaring that the church of Ireland ought to yield some of its privileges with regard to tithes, in order to preserve the rest.

Lord Ellenborough
thought that the bill would be less exceptionable if the compulsory clause were introduced, than it was in its present form; but still he would not vote for it, because the measure was not what the people of Ireland required. They wanted a bill for the commutation of tithes, and not one for the composition.

Lord Holland
felt himself called upon to state the grounds upon which he intended to vote for, or rather the reasons which would induce him not to vote against, the motion for going into a committee. The learned ford on the wool- 1491 sack the course of a former debate which had taken place that night, had endeavoured to weaken the effect of the speech which had been delivered by the rev. prelate opposite (the bishop of Norwich), a speech fraught with more Christian charity and real wisdom and learning than any which he had ever heard in that House, by relating an anecdote of bishop Hoadly, with whom, perhaps, the rev. prelate opposite was the only bishop that could for one moment be compared. The learned lord had, however, incorrectly quoted the words of bishop Hoadly, when he said that that eminent prelate had declared, that the Reformation was no blessing without the Revolution. The declaration of bishop Hoadley was, that the Restoration was no blessing without the Revolution. So he (Lord H.) thought, that the bill before the House would be no blessing without the compulsory clause was introduced into it. He considered the bill as a recognition of the intention of the House to redress that which Mr. Pitt had twenty years ago declared to be an evil. The bill was the only miserable pittance which; during twenty-three years, the wisdom arid justice of parliament had condescended to give to the people of Ireland. On that account, he would vote for going into a committee, without pledging himself to assent to the third reading, unless the measure received considerable improvement in the committee. But he wished it to be understood, that he would not vote for the committee on the grounds which the noble earl opposite had on a former night urged, to obtain the support of the rev. prelates to the bill. The conduct of the noble lords on his (lord H's.) side of the House was more ingenuous than that of the noble earl; for they plainly stated, that they Wished to compel the Church to consent to a commutation of tithes, on the broad principle that necessity and the salus populi required it. The noble lord then proceeded to take a brief review of the various clauses of the bill, with the imperfect nature of some of which he expressed himself extremely dissatisfied. He had thought that this progeny of so many Jupiters and which had been so long in begetting, would have come into the House in its full vigour, like a young Hercules, to crush at one blow the Hydra which it was fated to destroy. But, how abortive did it appear! what a sine viribus infuns! How puny a bantling! It could 1492 not even be aided by the soft and smooth speeches of the noble earl. The relief to Ireland, if afforded at all, must be afforded speedily. It was not only the wish of every man who had a regard for the interests of the country, but it was the duty of that House, commissioned as it was to watch over the welfare of the. People, to adopt such measures without delay; and he called upon their lordships to do so, if they would save the: empire, and gratify the people. At an earlier period of, the evening, they had heard from the learned lord on the woolsack the expression of the public opinion with respect to Catholic Emancipation. That learned lord had told the House, that that question was now more generally disapproved of than it had been for many years. Now, he (lord H.) thought, that the parliament was the representative of the public opinion. The House of Commons, although it had some years ago rejected that question, had recently passed bills recognizing it. But the lord chancellor had thought fit to say that the people of England now repudiated the Catholic question. Did the votes of the House of Commons or the lord chancellor, speak the sense of the people? The concession, of which so much was said, would be made to one-fourth of the people; and let it be remembered, when the Catholics were charged with a want of loyalty, that no man could stand up in either House of Parliament and say, "I am a Catholic, and I have as much loyalty as any man." He then quoted the opinion of Mr. Pitt, who (though he was no great authority) had said, that the power of the country could never be consolidated, until the Catholic question should be passed, and reproached the persons who availed themselves of the weight of that statesman's name, if weight it had, with not practising his precepts. He then reverted to the motion before the House. if adopted, he believed it would materially improve the bill. If the compulsory measure were introduced, the seed would at least be sown, and he should have some hope that the harvest would be reaped at some period^ however distant.

The Earl of Liverpool
had no hesitation in saying, that a compulsory measure was necessary; but it was also necessary first to know what was exactly meant by compulsion. To fair and equitable compulsion he had no objection. It had formed a part of the former bill, and had 1493 only been struck out, because differences of opinion arose with respect to the sort of compulsion. He contended for the Equity and legality of the principle of treating with tithes by act of parliament. The right of ownership in the land was a right subject to the charge of the tithes, and the tithes could not belong to the owner of the land under any circumstances. He was not prepared to advocate every law which stood upon the Statute-books, and among those which he admitted to be unjust he should not hesitate to reckon that of agistment passed by the Irish parliament. He defended from the attack of the noble baron the clergy of Ireland; than whom, he believed, a more respectable body did not exist in any country; and as to their conduct with respect to tithes, he believed no persons behaved more liberally. He did not mean to say that the measure before the House was a perfect one; but it was only by the operation of this bill that the real difficulties of the case could be under-stood. For these reasons, he felt obliged to oppose the motion.