Lords Sitting of 8 July 1823

IRISH TITHES COMMUTATION BILL.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to move the second reading of this bill—a measure of the utmost importance in itself, but of peculiar interest when considered in re-

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lation to the past and present condition of Ireland. To provide an efficient measure of that character was no easy task, when it was recollected, that though the subject had been often taken up, as well by those who considered tithes a grievance, as by others who were willing to substitute a corrective, yet the present was the first time of proposing any practical measure. When to such a difficulty was added the conviction, that a number of highly-important interests were involved in the question, the House would feel with him the solicitude with which he approached it. By the articles of the Union, it was imposed on parliament as an obligation to secure entire the Church Establishment of Ireland. That obligation he felt it to be the first duty to maintain inviolate; and any thing that would even tend to abridge or weaken its efficiency, he should consider most unwise. Many considerations pressed the necessity of inducing the residence of landed proprietors in Ireland; but it was of the highest consequence to preserve a resident clergy of the establishment; any thing that would have the effect of abridging such residence he considered as injurious to the best interests of Ireland, and most likely to aggravate the existing evils in its internal condition. It was, therefore, with the persuasion that the adoption of the present bill would strengthen, instead of weaken the influence of that enlightened body, that he proposed it to their lordships. Of the tithe property of Ireland, the House would bear in mind, two-thirds were in the possession of the established clergy—and, with respect to them he stated, without fear of contradiction, that they were, by far the most considerate and indulgent proprietors. The question of tithes, in the abstract, was not the question at present at issue. He was free to acknowledge that, abstractedly, he did not consider such a system a bad one; on the contrary, he thought it, under certain circumstances, the best mode of providing for the Church Establishment; but, in Ireland, where every species of property and industry was so subdivided—where there existed not a middle class of society, that stay and security of England, tithe property, as well as every other kind of landed income, stood in a very different position from similar property In England. In Ireland, where the proprietor drew his rents from 1,500 to 2,000 poor tenants, it stood in reason, without imputing any
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blame to the proprietor, that evils must arise in all the gradations, from, the first composition to the ultimate remedy., The noble earl then took a concise review of the various provisions of the bill, and without discussing the efficiency of a compulsory clause, contended, that it was better, in the first instance, to leave the subject open to voluntary operation; because the legislature had reserved to itself the power of eventually, if it should be found expedient, having recourse to a compulsory enactment. The very measure of bringing into action parochial vestries in Ireland, would, from the fullest information he had received be productive of incalculable good effects. The bill was not proposed as a permanent measure, or as one which might not re quire modification; but as one which, on the whole, it would be wise upon the part of the legislature, not to reject. It was impossible that a perfect measure could be expected at once. Its defects, could be shown only by experience. The bill had been thoroughly considered and discussed in the other house of parliament; and, on the part of the members of his majesty's government, with an anxious wish to render it a just and equitable measure, If their lordships wished to delay the measure until it could be made wholly unobjectionable in the first instance, they would never pass it at all.
The Marquis of Lansdownthought, that the principle of the bill should be reciprocity of advantage between the tithe-owner and the tithe-payer; and would suggest, therefore, that as the commissioners had power when they saw good, to add 20 per cent to the receipt of the clergyman, so they should have power, in such other cases as to them seemed fit, to diminish that receipt by 20 per, cent. He objected also to the principle upon, which the average had been formed. To take an average of seven years prior to the year 1821, was to throw, in five years of the high prices which, existed previous to the passing of Mr. Peel's bill; and, to construct a system which was to apply under the resumed cash payments upon an average formed out of prices which had maintained under a paper currency, seemed Unfair and absurd. Another important objection to the bill was, its effect upon the, land of agistment. At present the holder of agistment land paid no tithe whatever; but, under the new regulation of payment by parishes, his privilege would

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be lost. He by no means said that the interest of individuals ought not, under some circumstances, to yield to the public advantage; but, in all cases where there was a loss, there ought to be an equivalent, and he doubted whether the operation of the bill would promise so much benefit to any parish, as to induce the holder of agistment land to surrender his personal exemption. It was to a commutation of tithes by exchange for land that he eventually looked for benefit to Ireland. He expected no relief from the measure before the House; but as it formed a sort of opening to an important subject, he would give it his support.
The Earl of Harrowbyreplied to the two principal objections to the noble marquis. The first was, the power given to the commissioners of increasing the tithe a fifth beyond the average. It should be considered, that no clergyman in Ireland had ever received all he had a right to. In most cases, the clergy did not receive half their right; in some cases, scarcely any. It was to provide against these last cases that the discretionary power in question was given to the commissioners. With respect to the holders of agistment lands, he admitted that there might be hardship in some of their cases; but the objects of the bill could not be carried into effect, without their consent in the vestries, in common with that of others. And if, after their tithes were fixed, they should break up their lands for the culture of corn, it would not subject them to any greater payment to the church. But the present was not a question to be tried by mere pounds, shillings, and pence. If the bill were worth any thing, it was worth what gold could never buy. Its effect would be, to remove some of the most galling circumstances in the situation of Ireland. He was not more sanguine than the noble marquis with regard to any rapid effect to be expected from it; for no measure but a compulsory one could have such an effect. It was better, however, to endeavour to obtain the object, although slowly, yet by the voluntary acquiescence of the people, rather than resort to more violent measures; which, however, he was ready to admit must be adopted should all conciliatory proceedings fail. He regarded the measure for commuting tithes in Ireland with the same favour as the noble marquis did; but he could not see any prejudicial consequence from its postponement until the next
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session; as its execution must depend upon the previous success of the present measure.
The Earl of Carnarvonwas persuaded that no relief could be derived by Ireland from any measure that did not go much further, than the bill before the House. They must either get rid of tithes, or they would get rid of Ireland, It was natural that, in a country in which there was one religion for the rich and another for the poor, one interest for the priest and another for the congregation, such a tax as tithes, irksome even in this country, would become doubly so. It was a hardship upon the agistment owner, that this was not only a strong, but a partial measure, as it affected his interests, from the commencement of its operation. He approved of the general spirit in which the bill had been framed; but he feared there were many parts of it which would tend to counteract that spirit, and intercept the benefit which might otherwise have been expected to result from it.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he did not feel the slightest objection to the present measure. The compulsory clause had been withdrawn, and it was not necessary, therefore, to consider the expediency of introducing such a clause. He wished to make one observation, on a very erroneous opinion which had prevailed with regard to the nature of tithe. Tithe had been called a tax upon the land; but it could in no respect be considered a tax upon the land, for the tithe-owner was as much the owner of a tenth part of the produce, as the land-owner was of the other nine-tenths.
Lord Clifdencomplained of the tithe system in Ireland, as pressing with peculiar hardship upon the impoverished classes of the community. He believed that no benefit would result from the present bill without the introduction of a compulsory clause.
The bill was read a second time,