Lords Sitting of 24 February 1823

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.—
Earl Somerspresented a petition complaining of Agricultural Distress, agreed to at the Hereford county meeting on the 17th of January, at which meeting his lordship presided; he having agreed to summon it, pursuant to requisition, after the high sheriff had declined to call it. His lordship detailed the circumstances which took place at the meeting. He thought it right to do so, because he had refused to sign the petition, and because he objected to some of the allegations contained in it. The agricultural distress was undoubtedly very great; and though it might be said that, after a time, that distress would be alleviated; and though it was true, that great landholders might withstand the pressure, still it could not but excite the most melancholy feelings in men who were enabled to bear up against it, to see their neighbours continually falling one after another around them. He certainly did not mean to advocate any measure that could affect public credit; far from it. Public credit was to a nation, what private credit was to an individual; but let it be recollected, how much, during the war, public credit was supported by the landholders, who

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had cheerfully sustained the burthens imposed upon them—burthens which were the more heavy, inasmuch as, in addition to the taxes they paid in common with other classes, there were various local rates which bore exclusively upon them. It was impossible they could continue to sustain those burthens, under the change of circumstances which had occurred. In addition to the depreciation of prices arising from the transition from war to peace, they had to encounter the baneful effects of what was called Mr. Peel's bill. He did not mean to say that we ought not ultimately to return to a metallic currency; but he objected to the period, as being a peculiarly unfortunate one, at which that bill began to operate. It certainly greatly added to the distress. He knew many instances in which estates had been mortgaged, under then existing circumstances as to their value, for the purpose of providing portions for younger children; and the effect, under the change of circumstances, that had taken place was, that the younger children took all the profits of the estate, and nothing was left for the eldest sons, to whom it was intended the estates should devolve. His idea was, not that any measure should be adopted affecting public credit, but that the burthens now falling exclusively upon the landholders, should be equally borne by the other classes of society. A man might have 200,000 l. in the funds, and might pay very little assessed taxes or poor-rates; whilst he, who had that capital invested in land, not only paid taxes and rates himself, but all his tenants occupying portions of his land, paid also taxes and rates for every part of it. This he considered an unfair apportionment of the burthens of the state, and one which pressed most heavily upon the landholders, and threatened extensive ruin. He was convinced that the original intention of the 43rd Elizabeth was, that personal property, as well as land and houses, should be assessed to the poor-rates. He was aware that there was considerable difficulty in assessing personal property to the poor-rate; but, under the circumstances of distress in which the landed interest were placed, he thought this difficulty ought to be encountered.
Ordered to lie on the table.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—
The Archbishop of Canterburymoved, that the committee on the law regarding
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marriages should have permission to report from time to time. This having been agreed to, his grace presented a report from the committee, recommending, that until an ultimate decision could be come to, a short bill should be passed, repealing all the clauses of the Marriage act of last session, relating to the solemnization of marriages. The report having been agreed to, his grace presented a bill for the purpose mentioned in the report, stating that it was thought advisable to introduce this measure, with the view of allaying a very unpleasant excitement in the public mind upon this subject, and of preventing that immorality wind might arise from impediments being thrown in the way of marriage. The committee would, with the least possible delay, come to a determination upon the whole subject; but its consideration would unavoidably take up some time.
Lord Ellenboroughwas anxious that there should be no misunderstanding with regard to the object of the bill presented by the right reverend prelate. The effect of it would be, that the old law regarding marriages would be restored, with the exceptions that the marriages could not be annulled, and that the surrogates, whose power of granting licences was taken away by the act of last session, would still not have the power of granting such licences. In all other respects the old law, with regard to the solemnization of marriages, would be restored.
The bill was read a first time.

DISPUTE BETWEEN FRANCE AND SPAIN.—
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that he rose for the purpose of putting some questions to the noble earl at the head of his majesty's government, relating to foreign affairs. He was sure the House would feel that it could not be his wish to provoke any premature discussion, which might by possibility interfere with any negotiations going on with a view to the preservation of peace. His object was to ascertain whether the same ground of hope that was stated on a previous night as a reason for not entering into particulars still existed; and he was the more anxious to abstain from any general discussion, if that should be the case, in consequence of the fortunate concurrence of opinion manifested by both houses of parliament at the commencement of the session. When he considered that three weeks had elapsed since the meeting of

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parliament, and that many opportunities had since occurred of receiving communications from the Spanish government, and still more from the government of France, which, by the threat denounced against Spain, had struck at the independence of nations, he was anxious to put a question, the answer to which would be anxiously looked for by all persons; namely, whether that hope, whatever the value of it might be, of preserving the peace of western Europe, still existed in the minds of his majesty's ministers, or whether any expectation at all was entertained by them, that peace could be preserved? It would depend upon the answer which he received, whether he would put another question or not, arising out of the topic to which he had already alluded.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that on the first day the subject was introduced, he took the liberty, in answer to the noble marquis, of explaining the state of our foreign relations, as far as he conceived to be consistent with his public duty. He had then stated, that the door was not absolutely closed against the prospect of peace, and had deprecated any further discussion, as calculated to interfere with the exertions which his majesty's government were making towards the accomplishment of so desirable an object. Whatever difference of opinion might exist upon any other point, there was but one as to the propriety of maintaining a general peace. He, therefore, must again deprecate any further discussion, until it was evident that peace could not be preserved. He had no difficulty in stating, at the same time, that special circumstances had arisen, since the period before alluded to, and some of them very recently, which made him more adverse than before to any discussion of the existing differences between France and Spain. He would not shrink at a future day from explaining the grounds upon which his majesty's government had proceeded; but, as they all looked with anxiety to the preservation of what the noble marquis had called the peace of western Europe, he was sure their lordships would be induced to refrain from further observation; especially when he stated, that the forbearance which parliament had already shown, had afforded material advantages to his majesty's government in its negociations with foreign powers.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that it
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was impossible to be dissatisfied with what had fallen from the noble earl, always bearing in mind that ministers were acting on their own responsibility. The observation, that the forbearance adopted by parliament, had afforded advantage to the negotiations of the government, must have the effect of closing his mouth, as to the state in which those negotiations at present stood; but there was one question that he felt himself justified in putting to the noble earl, and to which he did not anticipate any objection. It was, whether, in the course of the negotiations which preceded the recent difference between France and Spain, any engagement had been entered into, as to any part which this country might take in the result of a contest? In short, whether this country was still unshackled, as to the course which she might feel it necessary to adopt, supposing a war between France and Spain to be inevitable?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it would be impossible to give a detailed answer to that question, without entering into a review of the whole policy adopted by this government for a considerable period; but this much he would say generally, that, this government had entered into no engagement whatever, nor would they feel themselves justified in doing so, which could prevent them from taking any course that might hereafter appear necessary to the honour and character of the nation.
Lord Ellen boroughsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of putting any question, after the explanation of the noble earl; but he could not entertain any sanguine views, with respect to the preservation of peace between France and Spain, since the speech of the king of France. The noble earl had stated, that the same desire for a continuation of peace between France and Spain which was felt by his majesty's ministers, was also felt by the noble lords who generally opposed them. In that opinion he fully agreed; and he could say for himself, that he looked with the utmost anxiety to the prevention of any war, in the present state of the public feeling. But, if the mediation of England was conducted upon the principle of inducing Spain to give up any part of her constitutional privileges, we were as guilty of injustice, as the allied powers themselves; and the ministers, if they had so committed themselves, would incur a heavy responsibility.