Lords Sitting of 10 May 1822

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, that their lordships and the public now knew, and minister ought

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long before to have known, that in certain districts of the south of Ireland there had been a great failure in the crop of potatoes, which had produced most extensive distress. Though it afforded much gratification to him to find that liberal subscriptions for relieving the distress had been entered into, still it appeared to him matter of imputation on ministers, that not only they seemed now to be taking no measure to remove the distress, but, informed as they must have been of its rise and progress, they had done nothing to prevent from reaching its present aggravated form. He wished, therefore, to ask the noble earl what measures government had adopted? The distress of a part of Ireland had risen to a most calamitous height, without the least apparent attention being paid to it by government. It had been observed, that the application of the public money to the purchase of corn in this country was contrary to the principles of political economy; but he thought that the million which was to have had that destination would be with more propriety employed in relieving the distress of Ireland, employed held in his hand a letter from a gentleman in the county of Clare, on whose correctness their lordships might rely. The writer said, "The distress here is beyond all possible description. There is nothing but starvation in every corner of the country, and it appears impossible to remedy it. Unfortunately, government, to whom repeated and strong applications have been made, has as yet done nothing; and if relief do at last come, it will now arrive too late." Such was the statement to which he wished to call their lordships' serious attention. If the picture was not overcharged as be was persuaded it was not, what could their lordships think of the conduct of ministers? In one part of the united empire they were told that, superabundance was the only cause of complaint, while in another the people were actually starving. If the answer of the noble earl opposite did not prove satisfactory, he should propose an address to his majesty, for the purpose of obtaining information on this important subject. The bounty of individuals would doubtless do much good; but if the distress was so extensive as it was described, nothing but the interference of government could produce relief.
The Earl of Liverpooltrusted that the explanation which he had to give would
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prove satisfactory to the House: He was far from being one of those who wished to shelter themselves under general theories, but their lordships must be aware, that no subject could be more delicate than that of the interference of government with the subsistence of the country. He would only wish them for a moment to consider, what might be the consequence of such a principle—how much it might operate in counteracting the exertions of private benevolence, and to what mischievous results such a meddling with the natural means of supplying the market might lead. Impressed with this principle, he did not hesitate to say, that when government received information of the local distress in Ireland, he was anxious that whatever aid it should appear advisable to afford, might be conveyed without the transaction becoming a subject of public notice in parliament. This was not the first time that such a case had occurred in Ireland, and that government had found it necessary to interfere. It was to be expected, therefore, that in what was now done former precedents would be followed. There was no reason to suppose that the subject had been overlooked. He had on a former occasion stated that it had engaged the serious attention of government, and he had now no hesitation in saying, not only that measures would be taken to relieve the distress, but had already been taken, on principles as unobjectionable as possible. These measures were adopted with the view, not only of meeting the present distress, but of preventing its recurrence, by supplying seed. With regard to the address, he should have no objection to agree to it when the proceedings to which it referred were terminated; but, in the present state of the business, the production of the correspondence would be attended with much inconvenience.
The Marquis of Lansdown, though agreeing with the noble earl as to the inexpediency of interfering with the supply of provisions to the markets, was still of opinion, that the case of the suffering poor, in the part of Ireland alluded to, formed an exception to any general rule, and that it was incumbent upon their lordships to take care that every thing was done that could be done for the relief of the unhappy sufferers. That the distress was most afflicting, the accounts from the south-west of Ireland agreed in stating, and the information he

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had received, pourtrayed a state of distress, in the county of Clare in particular, which imperatively called for the immediate application of some remedy. It was not merely, however, in that county, but in the mountainous district adjoining, that the distress was to a great extent prevalent; and he had some time since, on receiving information of the state of that part of the country, sent instructions to purchase oatmeal, and to sell it an inferior price in the distressed districts. The warmest acknowledgments were due to those individuals who had so liberally came forward in aid of the suffering population of Ireland; but he trusted that their highly meritorious liberality would not slacken the exertions of the Irish proprietors, and that the latter would not subscribe money instead of affording that relief which would be so much more effectual, and which they had the best means of affording—a supply of articles of food. He was averse to any interference with the supply of provisions, but it should be recollected that this was not the case of a general scarcity, but merely the failure or scarcity of one article of food; and that of the lowest gradation in the scale. This, therefore, formed an exception to general rules; and there was this fact in addition, that by confining the supply as much as possible to the next article in gradation, the purpose in view would be answered, without interfering with the markets for any other article of produce.
The Earl a Blesintonsupported the address. He stated the number of the starving population in the county of Clare to be 28,507. The distress was of no recent origin. It had been going on for a considerable time, and so strongly was it felt, that when he applied in 1819 to the archbishop of Tuam for his subscription to defray the expense of a statue to be erected to the memory of his late majesty, his grace answered, that he rather wished the money to be applied to the relief of the starving people of Ireland. Distress was not exclusively felt in the south and west of Ireland. In the county of Donegall there was no want of food, but of money to buy it. Money and capital were the things wanted. If the people were fed, without being provided with employment, mischief would ensue. If it were wished to do good to Ireland, a large sum must be given, at least five millions; two of which should be dis-
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tributed immediately, and the remaining three applied as local circumstances should require.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, it would be satisfactory if the noble earl would state how long it was since the government began to afford relief to the suffering population of Ireland, and to what extent that relief had been afforded.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, be was unable to state to what extent the relief had been afforded; but it was some weeks since that money had been sent for the purpose of purchasing provisions for those who were destitute; and measures had also been taken to provide seed, in order to prevent, as far as possible, a recurrence of the distress.
The Earl of Limerickobserved, that any ministry who could have neglected the consideration of the distressed state of Ireland, would have been deserving of public execration. But the contrary was the fact in this instance. The noble earl had stated, that measures had been re, sorted to, and were now in progress for the relief of the distress, and relying with confidence upon that declaration, he should oppose the address.
Earl Grey, could not discover any ground for that confidence which the noble, earl was so disposed to place in ministers. They had authentic accounts, the truth of which could not be disputed, that the population of Ireland, from whence large supplies of grain were drawn to England, were, a great part of them at least, in state of distress bordering upon famine, and yet there was no trace of any aid furnished by government for the mitigation of this dreadful calamity. What a picture of a government! Hundreds and thousands of-the population of Ireland dying in the streets and highways for want of food, in the midst of plenty, mitt we were merely told by the king's ministers, that measures were in contemplation to afford relief! Was this a ground, for refusing support to the address? On the contrary, that House ought to be informed of what had been done (if any thing had been done) for the alleviation of this dreadful distress; and if it should turn out that nothing effectual had beet done, they should wrest from the hands of incapable men that power which they knew not how to use for the advantage of the country.
Lord Ellenboroughtrusted that his noble friend would carry his motion to a division.

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He was anxious that the question should be sifted to the bottom. The existence of great distress in Ireland was all that was known, and there was no proof that any good had yet been done by government, or by the assistance of individuals.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, it had been distinctly stated by his noble friend; that money had been sent to supply food, in order to obviate the, present distress, and that seed had been provided for the purpose of preventing the recurrence of that distress.
Lord Hollandsaid, that the information alluded to by the noble duke was unsatisfactory, inasmuch as no dated were mentioned by which alone the House could be enabled to judge whether the proper means had been adopted in proper time for the relief of the distress.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he could not at, the moment recollect the dates but it was some weeks since that the relief was afforded in money to purchase food; and, subsequently, seed had been supplied, in order, to prevent a recurrence of the distress.
The Earl of Lauderdalecontended, that the admissions of the noble earl were sufficient to induce him to vote for the address; as it was evident that the relief was not afforded in time, especially with regard to seed, which ministers ought to have known was long since required, and that the time they had chosen for supplying it was too late to be of any real use.
The House divided; For the Address 17. Against it 35.