Lords Sitting of 26 March 1822

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Earl Greywished to ask, whether the House was now in possession of all the measures which the government meant to propose for the relief of the Agricultural distress?
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that a committee had been appointed by the other House to inquire into the distress, with a view to some general measure on the corn trade; but what the result would be, he could not pretend to say. He himself was not aware of any particular proposition being in contemplation, in addition to the measures which had already been brought forward.
Earl Greybelieved, that those who were suffering from the depressed state of agriculture by no means thought it likely that they would obtain any practical relief from the labours of the committee alluded to. For his own part, neither now, nor at the time of its appointment, did he expect any advantageous result from its inquiries. Finding, then, that his majesty's government had it not in contemplation to propose any farther measures of relief, aware that the distress had increased instead of diminished, convinced that the measures which had already been proposed were most trifling and nugatory, and believing that the reduction of taxation was the only means whereby relief could be procured—he would on as early a day as possible after the holidays, bring the distress distinctly under the consideration of the House; and also that measure, from which alone relief could be expected; namely, the reduction of taxation.

CIVIL LIST AND ALLOWANCES TO FOREIGN MINISTERS.
Lord Kingrose to call their lordships' attention to the subject of which he had given notice. He proposed to move an address to his majesty, praying that he would be pleased to order further reduction in certain parts of the Civil List. It had been his intention to propose, that their lordships should thank his majesty for those reductions which he had already ordered, and particularly in that part which was more peculiarly personal to his majesty; but the forms of the House prevented him from executing this grateful task, because their lordships had not before them any regular information of what had been done. But, as a part of the public, they might be permitted to know the fact, that a reduction which parliament could not have asked had voluntarily proceeded from the king. This act of his majesty had given great satisfaction to the country; but in proportion as that satisfaction was great, so was the disappointment at finding that no father reductions were to be made. And here he must repeat his regret, that he was denied the opportunity of farming an address in the shape he had at first intended. He was of opinion when the Crown made a sacrifice for the benefit of the subject, it was the duty of parliament to thank his majesty for so gracious an act. It appeared to him that it would have been far more decorous if a message on the subject had been brought down to both Houses, and the sense of parliament taken upon it by voting an address. Why ministers did not adopt this course, he was at a loss to know, unless they had at length resolved to do good by stealth. As, however, the offer of a reduction of his majesty's personal expenses had so graciously been made, he could not but be surprised at the reluctance evinced in the other departments of the civil list to follow the laudable example which had been set them. He thought it would be casting a very improper reflection on that House were he to suppose that a proposition for reductions in the civil list would be an ungrateful topic to their lordships. Many of their lordships, it was true, held situations which connected them in some measure with the subject, but he could not but think that they occupied such situations for the honour, and not for the profit, attached to them. It would be difficult to place the points to which he had to call their lord-
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ships' attention in a clear point of view, owing to the obscurity in which the accounts of the civil list were involved. Were there indeed any public accounts not involved in obscurity? They were drawn up in the best manner possible for preventing the profane eye from looking into the arcane of office. But, notwithstanding the difficulties he had to encounter in unraveling these accounts, he was confident that he could prove to their lordships, the existence of the same wasteful expenditure in the civil list as in the other departments of the state. That expenditure had been defended on the ground that influence and patronage were indispensable. But if such an application of expenditure was necessary in other places, there surely could be no need of it in that House.
With regard to the object of his motion, he could scarcely anticipate its being contended that parliament was not competent to regulate the civil list. It was true that on his majesty's accession the civil list was granted him for life. But, if abuses were to take place with regard to the revenue of the civil list, surely no one would say that parliament ought not to inquire. If it should turn out that the allowance was not sufficient, parliament would be called upon to inquire; and if it should appear to be more than sufficient, surely parliament was in that case equally competent to institute an investigation. He should, before he sat down, show that the allowance of the civil list was in one branch far more than sufficient—he meant that branch which related to foreign ambassadors. By act of parliament that branch was separated from the others, and the Crown had no interest whatever in keeping up the amount, as no benefit could be derived from such a proceeding. According to the act of the 56th of the late king, any saving from this class cannot be carried to another branch of the civil list, but must go to the consolidated fund. The Crown had, therefore, no interest whatever in preventing the allowance to ambassadors from being reduced. The classification which had been last made was not such as ought now to be adhered to. The estimate of 1816 was made in the contemplation of very different prices, and a state of things not at all corresponding with those now existing. He understood that besides the reduction of 30,000 l., which was personal to his majesty, it had

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been proposed to reduce to the extent of 25,000 l. in the other departments of the civil list. This he thought was very far short of what ought to be done. He would read to their lordships a speech of queen Anne, which would remind them of what had been done by that great princess in a period of difficulty. In giving her assent to the bill which granted to her a civil list revenue of 800,000 l. she gave up to the public 100,000 l. Her words were—"Gentlemen, I return you my kind and hearty thanks for continuing to me, for my life, the same revenue you had granted to the king. I will take great care it shall be managed to the best advantage, and while my subjects remain under the burthen of such great taxes, I will straiten myself in my own expenses, rather than not contribute to their ease and relief, with a just regard to the support of the honour and dignity of the Crown. It is probable the revenue may fall very short of what it has formerly produced: however, I will give directions that 100,000 l. be applied to the public service in this year, out of the revenue you have so unanimously given me." This, their lordships would observe, was a sacrifice of one-eighth of the whole revenue of the civil list, whereas that now made was not more than 3½ per cent. The civil list acts of 1817 and 1820 were formed on the estimate of 1815. He held that estimate in his hand. It appeared from thence that 60,000 l. was in 1816 and in the present year, the amount of his majesty's privy purse. The charges on the first and second classes were precisely the same. The salaries to foreign ministers amounted to 226,950 l.; the expenses of the household to 209,000 l.; and the salaries to the officers, 140,700 l. The noble lord ran over all the classes under which the expenditure of the civil list is usually stated, and showed, that in every case they nearly coincided in the bill of 1820 with the schedule of 1816. It should be recollected, when this compative statement was made, what was the comparative scale of prices at the two periods. In 1816, the price of all articles had not fallen to the state at which we now found them, nor was the distress then equal to that which now pressed upon the nation.
Having proved that the civil list expenditure of 1821 was formed on the schedule of 1816, he would proceed to show that the new arrangement of the
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civil list, adopted in the act of 1820, was not conducive to economy. Formerly, when a sum was voted to defray the whole expenses of his majesty's civil list, it was thought sufficient if the Crown kept within the limits of the amount granted. If it exceeded in a particular year in one branch, it retrenched in another, and the retrenchment in the latter balanced the excess in the former case. Thus the debt, if any was created, in one class, was absorbed by the saving in another. Such was the situation of the civil list before the late arrangement. Now what was the consequence of that arrangement? It provided that one branch of the civil list revenues might be expended without calling for any inquiry, and that the other should be brought under the revision of parliament; and since that time the expenditure had increased. Accounts were, indeed, submitted to parliament, and estimates were brought for ward; but this was generally done in a manner which made its revision no efficient control. Such accounts were usually submitted to the House at the end of a session, when there was a thin attendance of members, or at a late hour of the night, when there was no disposition to examine them. The excess of expenditure over the allotted income was thus less effectually prevented then when the old method was observed of voting a fixed revenue, and allowing the Crown to dispose of it according to its discretion. This would appear from the fact that those services which cost the country in 1792 the sum of 898,000 l. now cost 1,300,000 l.; and all the charge which were defrayed from the civil list of 1792, namely, for the royal family, junior branches, pensions, and all the classes of the civil government (some of which were, by the bill of 1820 separated from the usual civil list expenses), required in the year 1816 the sum of 1,847,000 l. and relieved of the Windsor establishment, required in 1821 the sum of more than 1,600,000 l. The increase, therefore, amounted to about a third of the whole expenses of the civil government, being 600,000 l. beyond the scale of 1792. In times of distress, when the most numerous class of the people were suffering severely from the pressure of the public burthens, it became the great officers of state to show that they sympathized with their sufferings, and bore their share of the burthen. Now, the increase which he had stated of the amount

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of the civil list by no means showed any such sympathy. It was true, that the great officers of state were to surrender per centage on their incomes, but the country had no reason to be satisfied with the proposed reduction. Various branches of the civil list called for reform, and admitted of obvious retrenchment. It would be recollected, that in 1817 a bill was introduced, on the recommendation of a special committee, to abolish sinecure places, and to substitute in their room certain pensions to be given to the great and efficient officers of state upon their retirement from office. He had moved far a return, which had not yet been presented, to enable their lordships to see what benefit had resulted to the public from this act, on comparing the savings which it effected with the new provision for the great officers of state which was at the same time created. The places to be abolished were about five or six. One of them was the sinecure of clerk of the pells; another, that of chief justice in Eyre. He should now wish to know what advantage the country had as yet derived from these abolitions. He knew not whether a noble viscount opposite (lord Sidmouth) had obtained one of the pensions, but a near relative of his held the clerkship of the pens, which was one of the places included in the bill of 1817. In the reform of that year, it was proposed to abolish certain sinecures of Scotland, which were not reduced, because it was discovered that their abolition would be inconsistent with the act of union. This objection reminded him of a difference that arose about the promised repeal of a tax, when it was observed, that if there was any doubt on the subject, the public should have the benefit of that doubt. "Then, in that case," it was replied by the friend of the Treasury. "the money should come into the Exchequer, as that is presumed to be for the benefit of the public." The presumption in favour of supporting a useless office, derived from the act of Union, was of a similar description. Mr. Burke had proposed the reduction of various places when the vested interests in them should expire; and these vested interests still, in some instances, prevented the public from deriving any advantage from his economical reforms. There was the keeper of the king's buckhounds, who was never now called upon for the performance of his official duties; and the master of the hawks, the continuance of
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whose office could not be defended on any ground of utility or equity, unless it was supposed that the hawks had a vested interest in their master.
He now came to the expenses of the third class of the civil list; namely, that which included the charges for foreign ambassadors and ministers. And here he would again refer to the same head of expense in 1791, and compare the charges of that year and the last. He found there a general increase of all salaries and allowances since the former period. Nothing remained as it was, and nothing was diminished. The states of Europe had undergone great changes during the interval; some of them, which were then important, had been reduced in their extent, or stripped of their influence; and others, whose power was then insignificant, had obtained considerable rank and consequence. But it was a remarkable fact, that the expenses of none of our missions were diminished by this fluctuation of power. With states whose importance was destroyed, we found it advisable to support a mission at a greater expense than when circumstances were entirely different. The return on the table was very imperfect, as it did not include the salaries and allowances of the secretaries of embassy. The whole amount of the expenses of foreign embassies in 1791 was 89,590 l. In 1821 it rose to 133,840 l. exclusive of the secretaries of legation 13,850 l. and consuls 30,000 l. making in all 177,690 l. This did not include the amount of pensions, the extra-ordinaries for out-fit, &c. which, when added to the former sum, would raise it to 288,000 l. In 1791, the expense of foreign ministers and their secretaries, without including pensions, amounted to about 89,000 l. He believed he was not far from the truth when he stated the whole charges of our foreign missions in 1791, inclusive of salaries for secretaries, pensions, and allowances, at 120,000 l., while the same establishment in the year 1821 cost the country 288,000 l. There was thus an increase of 140 per cent during last year, as compared with the year 1791. And while this increase of 140 per cent had taken place in the expenses of our foreign missions, what reductions did government propose, in compliance with the recommendation of parliament and out of a regard to the distressed state of the country? They only proposed a reduction of 10 per cent! If he were to

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recur to the accounts laid before parliament in 1816, he might point out many items of great extravagance. In 1815, the sum expended in extraordinaries amounted to 145,000 l. Lord Stewart had, at two separate times the sums of 5,000 l. and 6,000 l. for extraordinaries and journies; and lord Cathcart sums to nearly an equal amount. This was the annus mirabilis of diplomatic extravagance, and was not less remarkable for the profusion with which our ministers squandered the public resources, than their cold-blooded indifference to the inroads made on general liberty and national independence. The ease with which they surrendered the weak to be destroyed by the powerful—the sacrifice of human rights which they permitted or encouraged, were of a piece with their absurd and unnecessary profusion. The extra-ordinaries which had been calculated at. 50,000 l., amounted to 80,000 l.; and the presents to ministers of foreign powers alone cost 15,000 l. He could not divine on what principle these presents were distributed. He found that Russia was a great sharer in these marks of favour, and that her ministers and ambassadors had received, in the shape of presents, in one year, more than 12,000 l.
He would again recur to the effect of the bill of 1816. It was said, that that act would prevent extravagance, by making it necessary to submit every charge to the revision of parliament; but there had never been greater extravagance witnessed than since, it passed. An a report on the civil list, presented by a select committee, it was stated, that the more the salaries increased, the pensions might be expected to diminish. Now he would wish to ask if this expectation had been realized, and whether the pensions had diminished? He could himself answer no, and he could tell the reason why. The diplomatic situations were now so much the rewards of parliamentary interest, that persons who had friends with the necessary influence were sent abroad to qualify themselves for receiving pensions. When they were duly qualified, they returned, and were placed on the pension list, to make war for others who qualified themselves for profitable retirement, and returned to enjoy it in the same manner. Both pensions and salaries had thus increased from the same cause—the necessity of gratifying powerful supporters. At the time when the scale of
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salaries was fixed, there was some plausible reason for an increase, from the augmented price of living, and the rise in the exchange against this country. It was stated before the conclusion of the war, that in the transmission of salaries to our agents abroad, between 25 and 30 per cent was lost by the state of the exchange, making thus a difference of one-fourth in the value of their income. The restoration of a favourable state of exchange ought, therefore, to be the ground of a reduction to the same amount. Why had the salaries of ambassadors not been reduced in proportion to the diminished operation of the cause which had raised them? Why were these extravagant appointments to be continued? The only answer was, that they were the means of patronage. The greatness of the allowance was no benefit to persons who, without family influence, wished to dedicate their lives to diplomatic employment. It was, on the contrary, a serious injury: because it enabled persons, qualified only by family connexions, and incapable of entering into competition with them for talent and experience, to outrun then in the race, and to cut off all prospect of promotion. There were, indeed, one or two exceptions, and he might mention sir Charles Stuart as an honourable one. But we could not expect, under the present system, such men as Mr. Ellis, or Mr. Eden, the late lord, Auckland. The great diplomatic appointments were reserved for individuals who had great family interest, or parliamentary influence—whose brothers, fathers, or relatives, were members of this or the other House. It did not matte in that case what was the duty; the salary was alone consulted. The kingdom of Saxony had lost one-half of its territory, but we had sent to Dresden an ambassador with an increased salary. The Hague was formerly an important diplomatic station, from the great influence of the republic of the states in the affairs of Europe. Now, neither the power nor the politics of the court of the Netherlands deserved much attention, or required much vigilance: but we maintained at the Hague and at Brussels as expensive an embassy as at Paris. Considering the present distressed circumstances of the country, he did not exactly see why lord Clancarty should be paid 12,000 l. a year to enliven a Dutch town with his presence. If the latter was not very much overpaid for the duties he performed, sir C. Stuart

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was very much underpaid for his. If, again, he looked towards the Swiss Cantons, he found that a duty, which was formerly paid by 250 l., was now considered worth 3,900 l. The persons who performed these duties at the different periods were, however, different. It might be extremely convenient for the relative of the family which now engrossed the Board of Control to receive such a salary, but it was not so easy to see what equivalent advantage Mr. Wynn could render the public. Mr. Gibbon had observed of sir W. Hamilton, that he corresponded more with the royal society than with the king's ministers, and was more engaged in observing the phænomena of Mount Vesuvius, than in watching the politics or the conduct of the court of the Two Sicilies. Our ambassador in Switzerland, in this view, might be of great use to the progress of mineralogical science, if his taste lay in that track; but he was too highly paid for any diplomatic exertions which he might be required to make. This gentleman had been sent to Dresden long ago, where he was likewise well paid, and where some losses which he had incurred had been amply compensated. He had his library burnt, containing, no doubt, the Jus Gentium, Puffendorff, and other appropriate works; and for this he received an indemnity of 5,414,l. This was the greatest diplomatic job he had ever heard of. A gentleman was to receive 3,900 l. for a duty executed formerly for 250 l. What was the nature of the defence which was to be set up for all this extravagance, he was at a loss to conjecture. He could scarcely imagine how the office of a third secretary of state, how the existence of so extensive a system of diplomacy, and such a host of retired diplomatists, could be justified in times like the present. Surely no one would contend that it was to maintain the balance of power in Europe t If it were asserted that it was necessary in order to maintain the balance of power in the House of Commons, that would be an intelligible proposition; but to talk of the balance of power in Europe at the present day would indeed be absurd. Did the noble earl opposite mean to contend, that in order to preserve the independence of the north of Italy, it was necessary that we should have an ambassador at Turin with 6,000 l. a-year? Would he say, that if we had not residents at the various German courts at a similar ex-
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pense, the independence of Germany could not be maintained? Would the noble earl assert that the Netherlands would be over-run by France, unless we had an ambassador at that court with a salary of 12,600 l.? If the noble earl were to declare all this, many of the individuals themselves seemed determined to prove, by their non-residence, that the noble earl was in the wrong; for they were seen walking about the town, as if to show that the business which they were appointed to do could be done as well without them—that the diplomatic curates were as competent to the discharge of the functions of their offices as the rectors. He begged, however, to do his majesty's present government justice for the economy which they had exhibited. They had actually dismissed one clerk from the office of one of the secretaries of state. Nor had they sent any ambassador to the court of Lisbon to compliment the king of Portugal on his return to his native dominions; although a few years ago, before the king returned, they did send an ambassador for that purpose. With a due regard to economy, and to the burthens of the country, that appointment had been dispensed with.
Now, he wished to know distinctly, the total amount of reductions made under the act of the 56th of the late king, and the extent to which they had been carried, according to the provisions of that act, to the consolidated fund. This class of the civil list was extremely important. What he complained of was, that there were two many embassies of the highest rank; and he doubted not that the intercourse with other states might be maintained with much less both of form and expense. We had formerly no ambassador, either at Vienna or Petersburgh; and what was there in our situation that should render such a change expedient at this moment? On the contrary, every diminution of expenditure that was practicable ought to be adopted. There could be nothing improper or disrespectful in applying to the Crown for a curtailment of expense, and as near an approximation as possible to the establishment of 1792. He doubted not the gracious disposition of the Crown, to comply with their representations. But he should perhaps, hear it urged, that our foreign ministers had either received no increase in their allowances, or no increase beyond what was absolutely necessary. His be-

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lief was, that the same would be said, if their salaries were doubled or quadrupled; and that the retention of influence and patronage was the sole object and motive of all this extravagance. It might be argued, however inconsistently, that there were now many more English travellers whom our ambassadors must of course entertain than at former periods. On other occasions, his majesty's ministers had made it it matter of complaint, that the number of English travellers was so considerably increased. The fact was, that these large allowances, however they might be defended under this or that pretext, evidently proceeded from a design, long entertained, of augmenting the influence of government. Even at home the treasury was not satisfied without drawing to itself the influence of all the other boards and departments. The customs as well as the excise had yielded tip their proportions. The expense of collecting the revenue was 1,250,000 l. greater than it was formerly; and here again was a vast accession of patronage. So, too, with the army and navy: the system under which they were governed had the utmost tendency to increase it. Let their lordships consider also the office of commander-in-chief, and the staff annexed to it: let them reflect on the office of third secretary of state; on that nest of jobs, the India board, and the utter uselessness of either one or other of these two last departments. It surely could not be denied either that the affairs of India might be transferred to the colonial office, or the care of our colonies to the India board. The support of influence could alone account for the maintenance of these offices. They were evidently kept up for no other purpose, or at least to this purpose every other consideration gave way. This was now more than apparent. It had been lately and for the first time shamelessly avowed in another place, that offices, whether useful or not in other respects, were sometimes necessary on account of the influence which they afforded. Thus it should seem, that the present ministers lived upon influence—that it was their only natural support—that upon it their authority, power, and existence entirely depended. If their military administration were examined with so much attention, and the triumphs of their foreign policy ever so justly estimated, it would be found, that there was no campaign
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which they had carried on so successfully as that against the independence of parliament. In pursuance of this object they had not been led away into petty diversions; there were no untried schemes, like the nibblings at West India islands, or expeditions to the Helder, which had made them forget, or sacrifice for a moment, their original and favourite purpose. All their talents had been displayed, and all their perseverance exercised, in this warfare. Here they had been regulate, uniform, undeviating in their conduct; and he must do them the justice to say, that although, in whatever was salutary or good, they had shown themselves to be powerless, in all that was mischievous they were neither feeble nor inactive, and had, during the thirty years that the government had been vested in their hands, done more to corrupt the purity, and overthrow the independence of parliament, than had been done for a century before. No reason could be assigned for not extending reductions and abolishing useless places, except, that the patronage of ministers would be thereby diminished; and the noble earl and his colleagues declined the saving of millions where it was practicable, because it would leave them less with which to gratify their supporters and adherents. He had heard of millions sacrificed in order to add a peppercorn to the revenue: here millions were sacrificed with views extremely different, and consequences much more deplorable. Important as would be the saving to the country by the reductions which he recommended, that advantage would be as nothing compared with the advantages arising from the diminution of the undue influence of the crown. The noble lord concluded by moving the following Address:—
"We, your majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of Great Britain and Ireland, in parliament assembled, most humbly represent to your majesty, that the expenses of the civil government have been greatly increased in various branches formerly changed upon the civil list revenue, now forming part of the supplies of the year, but more particularly in that class of the civil list which comprises the salaries and allowances of foreign ministers. That by an act passed in the 56t year of his late majesty, provision was made for the future annual charges of the several classes of his majesty's civil

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list in consequence of an estimate laid before, parliament for that purpose, and that with regard to the expenses of the third class, it was further provided, that in case any surplus or saving should have arisen in that class, it should be lawful for the lord high treasurer or commissioners of the Treasury, and they were thereby required to direct the same to be carried to the account of the consolidated fund.
"That the expenses of the said third class appear greatly to exceed what is required for the public service, and that the reduction of the same, and the application of the saving made in consequence thereof, according to the provisions of the 56th of his late majesty, would, in the present distressed situation of the country, be conducive to the relief of your majesty's suffering subjects.
"We therefore approach your majesty with the humble expressions of the earnest hope, which, from your majesty's constant disposition to meet the wishes of your people, as well as from the proofs recently given of your majesty's paternal attention to the distresses of your subjects, we confidently entertain, that your majesty will immediately give the necessary orders for effecting a reduction of the expenses attending the appointment of foreign ministers, and also for making such further reduction in the other charges of the civil government, as may be consistent with the support of the true dignity of your majesty's Crown, which it will at all times be our anxious desire to preserve unimpaired."
The Earl of Liverpoolbegan by remarking, that it might be imagined by any one who had heard only the speech of the noble lord, that his majesty's ministers were animated by no feeling except that of a wanton disposition to increase the public expenditure. Now, this appeared to him a most extraordinary as well as unfounded charge, seeing that their lordships had before them the reports of the finance committee of the House of Commons, which sat in 1817; and by referring to them it would be seen that that committee had considered every branch of our civil government as well as our military expenditure, and had, in contemplation of peace, estimated what ought to be the amount of our establishment. Now, what was the fact? Why, that his majesty's ministers had already carried their reductions 1,200,000 l. farther than the probable estimate of the com-
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mittee of 1817. After having stated that, he would ask whether the noble lord was warranted in throwing out such imputations against his majesty's government, and whether, on the contrary, every effort had not been made to reduce the national expenditure to as low a scale as possible? When their lordships looked at the dead expense of the army, the half-pay and pensions, amounting to 5,000,000 l.; and when they considered the proportion which that bore to the 16,000,000 l. which was the whole of our civil, military, naval, and miscellaneous expenditure; and when they farther considered, that those 5,000,000 l. were entirely out of the control of his majesty's government, they would be still more sensible of the amount of the reductions. In the civil departments great reductions had taken place. Several years ago a commission had reduced the expense of the Customs 80,000 l. a year; and a progressive reduction of 20,000 l. a year in that department had since been made. But it was impossible, with the slightest justice to the individuals employed in the public service, to accomplish all the reductions which it might be desirable to make at once. They must be gradually effected.—Before he entered into the consideration of the reductions which had been made in the present year in the civil establishment, he would say a few words on the noble lord's general doctrine, as to the jurisdiction of parliament over the civil list. Undoubtedly, he admitted, that there was no question which could be excluded from the jurisdiction of parliament, on a strong case being made out for submitting it to that jurisdiction. But he was supported by the authority of all the greatest statesmen which this country had produced, both those who had opposed and those who had supported the measures of his majesty's government, when he declared that as long as the Crown kept its expenditure within the sum appropriated to the civil list—not that no parliamentary inquiry ought to take place into the subject, but that a very strong ground ought to be laid to warrant such an inquiry. He readily agreed with the noble lord, with respect to that particular branch of the civil list, to which the noble lord had mainly addressed his observations, that the arrangements made in 1816 were for the purpose of bringing that particular subject more under the cognizance of parliaments, But, before he went into that part of the

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subject, he wished to correct one remark made by the noble lord, who said that the committee appointed on the accession of his present majesty, and who recommended the present establishment of the civil list, took the estimate framed by the committee of 1816 as their model; but that, as what was called Mr. Peel's bill had passed since 1816, things were in a very different situation from that in which they were at that period. The fair inference, however, was, that parliament, perfectly aware of that circumstance, did, after due consideration upon it (and he begged leave to remark that the subject had never before undergone such an ordeal at the commencement of a new reign), settle, in 1820, the specific amount of the civil list, under the new circumstances in which the country was placed. But the noble lord was not correct in his assertion with respect to the great difference of circumstances in 1820 and 1816. The depreciation of currency in 1816 was not like the depreciation of currency in 1810. The exchanges in 1816 were in favour of this country, and gold was below the Mint price, and was imported in large quantities. He had a right, therefore, to contend, that in framing the civil list estimate, in 1816, parliament had been influenced not by any consideration connected with the depreciation of the currency, and the consequent increase in the price of the necessaries of life; but by other and distinct considerations; for, he repeated, that he believed the exchanges were more in favour of this country in 1816 than they were at the present moment. Under these peculiar circumstances it was, that it was proposed to make a saving in the civil expenditure. Their lordships were aware that both Houses addressed his majesty last session to institute an inquiry into the details of the different branches of the civil establishment, particularly with reference to those officers the salaries of which had been increased since the year 1797, when cash payments were suspended, in order that in the improved state of the circulation, they might be brought back to their former amount. His majesty's government, of course, felt it their duty to institute a minute inquiry into the state of every 'department of the civil service. They had adopted a plan of retrenchment which would hereafter, in all probability, come before their lordships in a legislative shape; founded on the principle of endeavouring to combine what was due to
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the wishes of parliament with what was due in common justice to the individuals immediately concerned. Undoubtedly his majesty's government might have stopped at the strict execution of the intentions of parliament; they might have stopped at the reduction of those salaries which had been augmented in consequence of the effects on the value of money of the suspension of cash payments in 1797. But having accomplished that object, they felt it their duty to proceed still farther, and humbly to recommend to his majesty to issue on order in council for the reduction of all other salaries of civil officers, although those salaries had not been previously increased. With the exception of the first lord of the Admiralty, and the chancellor of the exchequer, there was no great officer of state whose salary and appointments were not the same through the war and after the restoration of peace. Whatever classes of property might have lost in the one state of things or gained in the other, their salaries and appointments remained invariably the same. They felt it, however, to be their duty, under the pressing circumstances of the times, not from any consciousness that their salaries and emoluments were too large (for on that subject he would candidly appeal to the noble lords opposite), but because they had been obliged to inflict a wound on others, to recommend his majesty to subject their salaries to a reduction of 10 per cent. He had further to state, that although the circumstances under which the civil list was framed did not impose any such duty on the sovereign, it was his majesty's spontaneous feeling to submit to the same sacrifice's, whatever they might cost him, and to whatever inconvenience they might subject him. The amount of the whole immediate saving was within a fraction of 200,000 l.; and of the prospective saving 173,000 l. making an immediate saving of 200,000 l., and an ultimate saving of 373,000 l. It was for their lordships to say whether, under all the circumstances which he had described, his majesty's servants had not done all that could fairly be expected from them?—He would now proceed to that which had been the principal object of the noble lord's remarks; he meant the third chars; of the civil list, relating to ambassadors to foreign states. The noble lord had drawn a comparison on this subject between the year 1792 and the present time. Their

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lordships would, however, be astonished to hear, that when the scale of that part of the civil expenditure was settled in 1792, parliament went back as far as the year 1721; and that, in fact, no alteration had been made in the scale of the salaries of ambassadors and envoys from 1721 down to 1804. Now, he submitted to any one who had experience or knowledge in such appointments, whether with such salaries it was not positive ruin to any individual to enter into the diplomatic profession, unless he had a large private fortune, or other means of defraying the charges that must necessarily fall upon him? But, what it was material for their lordships to consider was, that this very subject came under the consideration of the committee in 1816. That committee had all the estimates, and all the details before them; and from their silence, he might fairly infer that they thought this branch of the civil expenditure not unreasonable. But he did not rest upon that. Their lordships had on their table returns illustrative of the subject; and he would call on any noble lord at all acquainted with foreign countries, and with the duties of the representatives of the British government in those countries, whether any individual could accept a foreign mission, unless, over and above his official allowances, he had a private fortune, on which he could draw for aid? Some of the foreign courts might be more, and some less expensive; but such was the fair general statement of the fact. The noble lord made the appointment of an ambassador at the court of the king of the Netherlands the subject of his particular animadversion. Now, if there was one foreign embassy which ought to have been exempt from any remarks of that nature, it was the embassy to that court. If all the rest of our foreign embassies were abolished, that to the United provinces ought to be preserved. In saying this, he but spoke the opinion of the greatest statesmen which this country ever produced. He might advert in support of it to the sentiments expressed by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, on former occasions; and sure he was that there was no man of true English feeling and political judgment, who would not go along with him in asserting, that we ought to maintain, not an occasional or a fluctuating, but a real, permanent connexion with the government of the Netherlands. With respect to this appointment, it must be observed
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that there was an additional expense peculiar to it, which arose from the circumstance that the court of the Netherlands was at one time held at Brussels, at another time at the Hague; and it was necessary that our ambassador should keep up two establishments, to meet the court at either place. On, the point of sending out an ambassador to the courts of Petersburgh and Vienna, he differed altogether from the noble lord. Surely no one could suppose, that at the courts either of St. Petersburgh or Vienna we ought not to have an ambassador. He could not conceive it consistent with the high character of this country and its most important interests, to send an inferior minister to those courts. It was not a becoming, but a niggardly economy, which would induce us not to maintain at those courts the most dignified representatives of the sovereign. It ought to be recollected too, that a noble earl opposite had, when secretary for foreign affairs, sent out a noble friend of his as ambassador to St. Petersburgh, and that at a time when there did not appear the very greatest necessity for our interference. But the thing would speak for itself: let their lordships look at the power and station which that court maintained in Europe, and then consider, whether it was consistent with that station and with our dignity, not to send an ambassador there. While the courts of Petersburgh and Vienna were desirous of sending ambassadors to us, it could not be to our credit or interest not to send ambassadors to them; and he trusted the opinion of the noble lord would not weigh against the important advantages which resulted from this line of policy.—This subject naturally divided itself into two branches; and in that way he was content to argue it. The first branch was the expense; and that involved the question, whether there was, in the nature of our present diplomatic establishments, any thing which denoted wanton extravagance or unreasonable profusion. And then came the question, whether or not these situations were remunerated beyond the measure of their utility, or exceeding the fair burthen of the expenditure imposed upon the individual. He would confidently appeal to any noble lord who had had experience of the charges of foreign, residence, whether any of these situations were overpaid. And while touching upon the point of expenditure, he could not

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help being struck with what had fallen from the noble lord, upon the degree of expenditure which he thought ought alone to attach to the envoy for Switzerland, whose expenditure he would reduce to the very lowest and most paltry scale, Now he thought the noble lord's instance particularly infelicitous. Could the noble lord forget the deep interest taken in the affairs of Switzerland in the years 1813 and 1814? Could he forget how the feelings of this country had been fixes upon securing the independence of the Swiss cantons, and how their inhabitant felt they were indebted for the arrangement which then took place to the interest which this country had taken in their behalf? Let any of their lordships loot at the geographical position of Switzerland on the map of Europe, and see its importance in every point of view? Switzerland, standing between Germany and Italy, might be justly called one of the keys of Europe, and the next in point of importance to the United provinces, Could any man look at the struggles which were made to establish French domination in that country, in the time of Aloys Reding, and doubt the propriety of England having a resident minister on the spot to give her some influence in the scale? Allusion had been made to the diplomatic resident at Dresden. That appointment he was more particularly called on to defend; for it was he who had recommended the minister to it, when he filled the office of secretary of state for foreign affairs; and those who would refer to the then existing situation of the affairs of Dresden, must, he thought, be convinced that a sense of duty alone actuated him in suggesting that appointment. The noble lord had said, that diplomatic missions, instead of being, as they ought to be, only attainable through long training in the public service, had become the objects of parliamentary patronage for the sake of their emolument, and without reference to that previous service which could alone make them efficient for the public. Now what was the fact? Out of 18 ministers recorded in the list on their table, 14 had been regularly brought up through all the ascending gradations, from secretaries of legation; and the remaining four could be shown to have derived their appointments from circumstances so peculiar, as to justify their necessity at the time, and show that they were such as necessarily
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grew out of the previous offices filled by the individuals. So much, therefore, for the noble lord's argument upon the rearing of diplomatists, and the particular influence to which he generally attributed their appointment. It might be as well to observe now, that these ambassadors, being part of the civil servants of the court, were comprehended among those who had to pay the 10 percentage upon their incomes, to the general service of the country.—The noble lord had referred to the former state of these establishments; but he had omitted to touch upon the report of the committee in 1816, which had gone fully into their character, had inquired into the whole of their expenditure, and had stamped their essential value. Upon a reference to that report, it would be seen, that there was not a single minister on the list whose income was proved to exceed, or to do any thing more than cover, the bare expenditure which their situations necessarily imposed upon them. The committee of 1816 had put these establishments upon a better footing for the public, by separating the incidental expenses from the regular accounts of the ministers. This alteration went to remedy serious abuses, and the benefit of it had since been sensibly felt. Indeed, he could positively declare, that not one of these appointments had annexed to it a sum exceeding that actually necessary to pay the regular expenditure of the individual. For these reasons, he must oppose the noble lord's motion. If the country were reduced to the alternative of getting rid either of a part of the number of its ambassadors, or of a portion of their expenditure, he thought it would be much better at once to reduce the number of the diplomatic missions, than to adopt the beggarly, impolitic, and discreditable plan, of making those situations unfit to be maintained upon that scale of respectability which was so essential for making them efficient. Thinking the noble lord had made out no case, either that the number of diplomatists, or the scale of their remuneration, was too great, he should oppose the motion.
Lord Hollandsaid, the noble earl had fairly admitted, that the case which they had to argue was reduced within a narrow compass, and that the plain question which they had to decide was, whether or not the present scale of diplomatic expenditure was necessary, situated as the country now was? He thought it could

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have hardly escaped the penetration of the noble earl opposite, that, notwithstanding his professions of economy, he was liable to the imputation of being somewhat tardy in the support he had given to the reductions which had taken place. Had not the noble earl over and over again declared, before these reductions were decided upon, that the establishments of the country were reduced to the lowest possible scale upon which they could be conducted with security or advantage? How often had he not, in lofty language, asserted the actual necessity of maintaining at their fullest extent establishments which he had since consented to reduce, and declared, that so impossible was it to conduct the government, except in the then existing state of those establishments, that if it were determined to touch them, it would only remain for him to resign his situation? Such were the repeated declarations of the noble earl: but, strange to say, when reductions could no longer be resisted, then said the noble earl—"these reductions I submit to parliament, and I claim your additional confidence for them." So much for the credit which the noble earl was disposed to assume for himself with respect to these reductions! He now came forward to admit, that, though good faith required that certain parts of the civil list should remain untouched by parliament, so long as they were kept within their stipulated amount, yet that under any circumstances the third class must always be considered as fairly before parliament for revision. He (lord H.) confessed that he was one of those who always thought that there were many other parts of the civil list, besides the third class, in which important reductions ought to be made. He thought that if another branch of the civil list could be re-opened without any imputation of a breach of good faith, equally important reductions could be made from departments which were miscalled appendages to the splendor and dignity of the Crown, but which, if they were now before parliament for revision, he would snatch from their present appropriation without the slightest remorse. The third class was, however, confessedly open for revision at any time; and then came the question, what had been the original character of that branch of the public expenditure? The noble earl adverted to the different reports which had been made upon the civil list by committees of both
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Houses. Now, upon the subject of the third class, all who thought with the noble earl, that it was impossible it could be reduced without injury to the country, must necessarily vote against the present motion; but, if after full reference to the parliamentary papers, and to the actual scale of expense which these establishments cost, there were any who thought that the expenditure exceeded the necessity urged in its justification, they were particularly bound to vote for his noble friend's motion. The noble earl had laid great stress upon the report of the committee of 1816: he had also called their attention particularly to the report of 1791, which he had repeatedly assured them was founded on the scale of 1721. But here he must doubt the noble earl's historical accuracy; for, if he did not mistake, a committee had sat upon the subject in the year 1786, and another in 1790; and the object of those committees was, if possible, to reduce, and not to augment, the previous scale of diplomatic expenditure. Mr. Pitt was the promoter of these committees; for, before it was the fate of this country to have been plunged by him into a wicked, lavish, and unnecessary war, he, too, bad been engaged in establishing economy and retrenchment in all the departments of the state. Mr. Pitt at that time did not go so far as to maintain what the noble earl now did, that length of years necessarily implied an augmentation of the scale of expenditure; but, in the committee of 1786, he had endeavoured to diminish the existing scale of expenditure below the former rate at which it was affixed. Mr. Pitt at that time brought the third class under the consideration of the committee. He did so again in 1804, in 1816, the same object was kept in view, though not in the same degree. His noble friend had asked the noble earl if any saving had taken place in the third class of these estimates; and the noble earl had replied that he could not say what saving had taken place in that particular branch; but that, if any, it must have been duly carried to the consolidated fund. Now, he hoped the noble earl would not impute to him a want of candor if, from that answer, he inferred that no saving had taken place. Their lordships, then, had only to form their opinion upon the comparative saving as it stood in the documents before them. Let them, for instance, compare the estimates of 1786 with those of 1804, Upon

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glancing at these papers, he must contend, that the gross amount considerably exceeded that which ought to be incurred for this branch of the public expenditure. Mr. Pitt in 1786, then a time of peace, estimated the whole diplomatic expenditure, including consuls and missions of all classes, at 70,852 l. In 1801, after Mr. Pitt had involved the country in all the consequences of the revolutionary war, he had estimated for the peace expenditure of diplomacy, a sum of. 112,000 l. They then came to the noble earl's point—the year 1816; and what was that estimate? Why, after discharging from it all pensions, it amounted to a direct and actual expenditure of 174,000 l., for a service which Mr. Pitt, in 1786, deemed adequately paid with 70,852 l., and in 1804 had estimated at 112,000 l. "Oh, but," say the ministers "if expences increase, salaries must augment in proportion; and where you sent a minister of the first class, it would be unbecoming for us to send one of inferior quality." This was the way in which a succession of appointments was carried on, and the list of pensions swelled out by the services in which the individuals had been engaged. The administration of Mr. Pitt, in 1786, had prophesied (for ministers had a knack of prophesying) that the pensions given in war would be so far available in time of peace as to go in reduction of salary, when the possessors became again reappointed to diplomatic functions. Well had it been for Mr. Pitt's fair fame, and for his country's best interests, had he devoted himself to the pursuit of these plans of retrenchment and economy, instead of embarking in a ruinous war. But Mr. Pitt, in 1786, estimated his diplomatic pensions at a sum not exceeding 8,970 l. a-year: they were now increased to 52,000 l. a-year. In 1804, the increase was to 27,412 l. So that the augmentation of salary from 1786 to 1816 was nearly 150 per cent and the rate of pensions nearly 350 per cent. Was that such an amount of expenditure as the country had a right to look to in its present circumstances? Something had been said on the rate of exchange as affecting foreign ambassadors; and it had been truly observed, that however the price of provisions might stand, the rate of exchange ought not to impose a loss upon the income of the ambassador. He fully concurred in that opinion; and that the foreign representative of the government ought not to suffer
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from the operations of that fraudulent currency which, to the disgrace of ministers, every man had been for so long a period exposed to. The last regulation had most properly and justly protected an ambassador from the losses attendant upon the rates of exchange; but the nominal amount of his emoluments, so in creased as to cover that fluctuation, was still left as the permanent scale which was to govern the reduced allowances in situations not exposed to the deductions which had led to the last advance of the full salary. Mr. Hamilton, in a letter to lord Castlereagh in 1815, had very properly observed, that an ambassador should know the full amount of his salary, and that the loss by exchange in transacting the remittances ought to fall on the country.—The noble earl had asked, "Is it fair, after you have had an ambassador in one place and in another, now to send an envoy to the same court, and particularly so when that court sends to you an expensive diplomatic establishment? The noble earl touched upon the recent history of the Swiss cantons; and, beating about the bush for an argument, at length he fixed upon their geographical position on the map of Europe. "Look at Switzerland," said the noble earl, "standing between Germany and Italy, one of the keys of Europe, a post where the principal powers of the continent have always struggled to maintain an influence; and was England alone to refrain from putting in a claim for a fair understanding with the people?" His reply was, certainly not; the only consideration with him was, if 250 l. had for years been sufficient for a British resident in Switzerland, why now, for the same purpose, was 4,900 l. or 5,300 l. deemed indispensable. The noble earl had informed them, that all the persons employed in foreign diplomacy had followed the regular order of succession from the smallest to the highest missions; and he had enlarged upon the benefits arising out of such a practice. But there was an end, it now seemed, of that practical series of instruction; for where were the minor offices? The changes which they were called upon to watch, had erased out of the vocabulary of the secretary of state the very names of these lower offices of diplomacy, which were rewarded at, the rate of 250 l. a year. Where, now, was a secretary of legation heard of? It was true, indeed, that they had converted electors into kings, and petty princes into

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potentates—they had nothing to do with such paltry beings as low margravates or grovelling republics, they were engaged in pursuing higher things, and therefore it was, they had abandoned the old custom of having inferior officers, which was found to succeed so well in the time of Sir R. Walpole. Until 1793, the expense of the Swiss mission was 250 l. a year. He was ready to give the noble earl the benefit of any change in the geographical situation of that country which might have occurred since that period. But, whatever might be the force of the geographical position, the historical argument would carry the noble earl but a small way in sustaining the necessity of the present large expenditure. For when did Switzerland stand in a more elevated situation, or one more imposing in the eyes of England, than in the early part of the last century, when the larger states in the world were conflicting between protestant and catholic interests; and not, as now, running a race of legitimacy, some of them struggling which shall be the more servile adulators of powers against the friends of freedom and independence. At the period to which he alluded, Switzerland was looked upon with peculiar interest by England. Thither she sent her children for a Protestant education, and to Savoy, that neighbouring state whose interests had been so sacrificed by the present administration. When all these important events were passing in Europe, the British envoy in Switzerland maintained his country's influence upon a salary of 250 l. a-year. In 1793, when Switzerland withstood, as a neutral country, the political shocks which convulsed her great neighbours, Mr. Pitt, thinking justly, that Switzerland was a position which required great attention, appointed an envoy with a salary of 1,000 l. a-year. At that sum it remained until the peace; and then, when the necessity for extreme attention on the part of the mission began to decline, the salary was augmented to something like its present amount. Passing on to Germany (the geography of which remained, he supposed, much the same as before), he was astonished at the monstrous increase which there presented itself. According to Mr. Pitt's estimate, there were six missions appropriated for the Germanic empire; there were now seven, although the smaller states, for which the majority of the former six were wanted, had been lately swallowed up by the larger, and had, therefore, unfortu-
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nately for their own liberties, and the character of Europe, ceased to uphold courts interchanging missions. He had no objection to the preservation of that connexion with foreign states, through the medium of diplomatists, whatever might be the changes through which these states had passed, and that the rank of the ambassador should ascend a step with the title of the potentate; but he saw no reason why this country should be called upon to pay an enormous accession of salary for missions, because some little petty prince or margrave became an elector or a king, and grasped at the adjoining territory of his feebler neighbour. These personages might call themselves kings, or emperors, or great moguls, for any thing he cared, provided the people of England were not to be additionally taxed as the consequence of such mutations. It was of that that he felt himself entitled to complain—it was of an expenditure which in one head of its items was increased from 16,555 l. to 44,306 l. The noble earl was never at a loss for reasons when it served his purpose to give them; and that circumstance rendered his silence regarding the augmentation of the allowances to our missions in Germany the more extraordinary; especially as he had given abundant reasons for the augmentation of the allowance to the mission in Switzerland. With regard to the mission to the court of the king of the Netherlands, he could not altogether coincide with the opinion of his noble friend who had introduced this subject to the House. The situation in which we had contributed to place the Netherlands appeared to him to be contrary to the principles and policy on which our ancestors had always acted, and was decidedly contrary to the opinions of the great men of other days who had lived in both countries—he meant of De Witt, of sir W. Temple, of William III., and of prince Eugene. But since we were bound by treaty to preserve the Netherlands in the same situation that they now were, there was some reason for our having an embassy in that country.—He would not go into the different items of its expenditure. He did not like examining too narrowly into the manner in which this public servant gained his 100 l., and that public servant his 1,000 l. a year, either at home or abroad. Still, the strongest feelings of indignation were excited in his breast, when he recollected that ministers, by their lavish expenditure and fraudulent

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manner of sustaining it, had made it absolutely necessary that every halfpenny that was dealt out to public servants should be closely looked after. Though he saw reasons for having an ambassador at the court of the Netherlands, he did not think that the reasons which had been urged for the augmentation of the appointments of sir C. Stuart, (a man of whom it was impossible to speak too highly), applied to the appointments of any other ambassadors besides those at the court of France. What his noble friend had slightly touched upon—the great resort of English travellers to particular countries—was not a reason for sending an ambassador or a minister plenipotentiary to any one of them, but it was a reason, if the nature of our connexions rendered it necessary to send a minister there, that his appointments should be such as would enable him to do credit to the country which he was sent to represent. For his own part, he would rather augment than diminish the appointments of the English ambassador at the court of France; but at the same time he must say, that the reasons which would lead him to increase the appointments of our embassy there, did not apply to our embassies elsewhere much less to the different agents employed in them: for it deserved to be recollected, that no augmentation of salary could be made to an ambassador without a proportionate increase being made to the salary of the secretary of legation and the other persons employed under him.—He would now take the opportunity of saying a few words with regard to the pensions. The noble had had said, that 14 out of the 18 persons who enjoyed pensions had risen from the lowest gradations of the department to which they belonged. It might be so; but still he did not know whether it was an improvement upon the ancient practice, from which it was certainly very different. In no court had we at present any minister less than an envoy or minister plenipotentiary; and it was stated, in defence of the practice, that all of them had gone through the different gradations of diplomatic office. Now, in former times, such individuals as were selected for ambassadors seldom underwent such a schooling: on the contrary, they were selected for their high rank and great fortune, and the persons who were employed under them, though they had the right of rising, rose but very slowly to the rank of envoys extraordinary. He spoke on this subject with confidence;
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and he would say, that if the papers op their table could by any possibility be submitted to the inspection of those who filled our different embassies fifty or sixty years ago, surprised as they would be by the number of missions now in existence, they would be still more surprised at the number of pensions, and the short time during which those who held them had been employed. They had increased with amazing rapidity since the conclusion of peace; and yet, if there was any time during which they ought to have decreased, it certainly was that when new courts were opened for the employment of diplomatists. They had, however, doubled in the period from 1804 to 1806; and at present 52,000 l. for pensions, and 177,000 l. for salaries, was the actual expense of our diplomacy, exclusive of the expense which was incurred in Another shape, subject to what was called, the wisdom and vigilance of parliament, and to tally distinct from the estimates then before their lordships. The noble earl had told him upon a former occasion, that the expenses of our ambassadors were less than those of any other country. He had then taken the liberty of calling the noble earl's attention to the expenditure of the different missions employed by the United States of America. The noble earl expressed his willingness to meet him upon that ground, and combated the positions which he (lord H.) laid down. Now, he did not mean to say, that we were bound to assimilate our practice to that of the United States; but still he must maintain, that it never could be derogatory from our character as a nation to have some regard to economy. He knew that our relations with foreign state were different from those of America, an that they were not to be judged exactly on the same principle. He had looked at the diplomatic expenditure of both countries for the year 1815, and had not forgotten to take into calculation that America, during that year, had incurred some extraordinary expenses, in consequence of being at peace with all the world, and of having recently negotiated a treaty of peace with us. He had said, in the course of his argument, that he thought that the expense of the relations of America with the whole world would be equal to oust with the different courts of Germany. On looking at the requisite papers, he found that the mission of lord Castlereagh to Vienna, which cost 42,000 l. exceeded by

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2,000 l. all the allowances to the different missions of America. Now, he would ask the noble earl, whether be would say, that he had ever met an American minister except upon equal terms as to talent, intelligence, and zeal for the interests of his country. He did not mean to urge the fact which he had just stated to their lordships as a reason for our approximating our expenditure to that of the United States: he merely mentioned it to show that gross extravagance must have existed in our own system of diplomacy. Indeed, the expenditure of that department in 1816 had exceeded the expenditure of 1804 by 150 per cent as far as regarded ourselves; and as far as regarded that of other nations in a five-fold degree. It was easy to see how that system had grown up amongst us. The noble secretary bad come from the continent daubed over with all the adulation and mouth-honour of the base and servile courts at which he had been visiting. The country was led to believe, from the flourishing statements that he made to it, that it would be able to exert for ever a commanding influence over the continent. It was not then allowed to hear any thing of the evils of a transition from war to peace—it was not then apprised of the evils of plenty—it was not then amused with ingenious and imaginary reasons for calamities which nothing but the odious and profligate measures of ministers had entailed upon it. The noble lord came over exulting and triumphing, and made the country believe itself lord of the world; and it was at the very moment that it was labouring under that delusion, that the noble lord submitted to it the estimates for our missions, drawn up on what M. Colonne had called "une économic large." What, he would ask, had been the result of that lavish system? Would any of the noble lords opposite say, that it had enabled us to continue that influence over the continent which we had enjoyed at the conclusion of the war? If there was any man, either in that House or out of it, who would hazard such an assertion, let him take to himself the shame of the subjugation of Italy: let him take to himself the shame of annihilating the rising liberties of Naples: let him take to himself the shame of crushing freedom, as far as freedom could be crushed, in every country of Europe: let him take to himself shame for the deviation from all those principles which the allied sovereigns had proclaimed in their hour of distress, and which they
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declared it their object to establish in the congress at Vienna. Let him consider, we had the influence which he maintainer that we had, that it was England that had laid Italy prostrate at the foot of Austria that it was England that had consigned to exile or the dungeon every Italian that was distinguished for his talent, integrity, and love of independence; that it was England that had insulted its most ancient and faithful ally, by forcing it to deliver the keys of its fortresses to the house of Austria, its most ancient and inveterate enemy If we still retained our former influence over the continent, how had we exercised it, whilst those atrocious outrages were committing on the rights of man and the liberties of nations? Why, the noble, secretary had published a circular, it which he had expressed his disapprobation of what Austria was doing. Now, that circular was either a false pretence, to throw dust into the eyes of the people and parliament of England, or it was a decisive proof that our boasted influence was completely gone. Another proof that it was so, might be deduced from an answer which the noble earl opposite had given him upon two distinct occasions. The noble earl had told him, when he asked a question about the payment of that loan which Austria had obtained from our merchants by a species of swindling, that every engine was at work to enforce the payment of it. He had seen rumours in the public journals for three or our days past, of the intention of the Austrian cabinet to raise a new loan in order to discharge its debt to this country; but he was sure that we should never get in payment of that debt, a quarter of he money which we bad expended in missions to Vienna since the peace. Indeed, if we should ever get as interest for that loan the expence of one year's mission to the German courts, he should feel perfectly satisfied, and would never open his mouth again upon the subject. Though le did not intend to enter into any discussion on the subject of our other missions, le could not conclude the observations which he had taken the liberty of offering o their lordships without expressing a rope that the odious and execrable government of Turkey would ere long fall o the ground. He cared not whether the blow came from Russia or from Greece, re trusted, however, that come from what quarter it might, the government of this country, situated as it now was, would

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abstain from interfering in the struggle. We were too remote to interfere in the contest, but not too remote to feel interested in its result. Thought, as a statesman, he was compelled to advise our neutrality in the combat, he must, as a man and a philosopher, wish the result of it to be, the complete destruction of the infamous and tyrannical government of Turkey. [Hear, hear.]
Lord Ellenboroughcomplained, that the papers on the table were not sufficiently satisfactory, as they did not contain an account of the contingent expenses. In reply to what had fallen from the noble lord, he would state that the expenses incurred by our foreign missions in 1815 and 1816 ought not to be taken as a criterion to judge of the expenses of commons years. He likewise contended, that of all the different species of expenditure incurred by government, that incurred by government, that incurred in the diplomatic service was the most necessary; for it was information—it was dispatch of business—it was the best means of facilitating those results which government most wished to produce, in short, expenditure in diplomacy was secret service money and if an ambassador was improperly limited in the employment of it, it was quite impossible for him to be of any utility to his country.
The motion was then negatived.